Do Christians believe the messiah is supposed to bring peace?

[jiggerk]

hi guy, I'm a newbie here but the reason i joined the forum is I have a question in my mind that no body can give me the answer. So i thought of looking for people who i believe smarty on this topic. My question is "Is there any passage or book written in the old testament saying that Jesus is God?" please email me [email protected] if you have a concrete answer to this. Thanks.

 

[dmgdnooc]

I do not want to start a debate, so if you want to hear my thoughts on these so called "prophecies" feel free to send me a PM. I just want to point out that if you read the NT and accept Jesus, OBVIOUSLY when you go back and read the OT you are going to try and find as many connections to Jesus as possible - its called Confirmation Bias. I understand that Christians identify Jesus as the messiah.

Well, yes, PM me your thoughts on my post.
Or, better, post them here in a spirit of discussion, it is the Christian DIR, surely this is the place to discuss why Christians identify Jesus as the Messiah.
Or, is that not why you are here?
　
Now, of course you understand that Christians identify Jesus as the Messiah, I tried to show something of why we do.
Having never read the NT and approaching it, if you ever do, with such a deepset confirmation bias (that allows you to form an opinion of it having never read it) your approach is bound to have difficulties.
　
Your assumption that I believed the NT and sought confirmation of it in the OT is incorrect.
I came to my conviction by believing the promises made to Abraham and eventually came to Christ through that belief.
Although I had a scant, or slight background, knowledge of the NT it did not make much sense to me, had no power to touch my heart, before I understood certain things in the life of Abraham and had laughed with Sarah at Isaac's birth.
　
I accepted Christ because of Genesis, not Matthew, and in large part my affections remain in the OT.
So it may be that I can explain the whyto and wherefore of Christianity in a manner that you can more readily understand.
Or, there are some Messianic Jews who frequent this forum and maybe can do it better, there is a DIR for their use.
Whatever you decide, I'm not much interested in a debate, or in preaching, or in converting you, but I think I could handle a discussion.

nooc

 

[punkdbass]

Well, yes, PM me your thoughts on my post.
Or, better, post them here in a spirit of discussion, it is the Christian DIR, surely this is the place to discuss why Christians identify Jesus as the Messiah.
Or, is that not why you are here?

I will PM you about your post later. The reason why I am here, is because I just want to understand. I think I have a pretty decent understanding as to why Jews do not accept Jesus, I just feel like Im missing something. I want to further understand why Christians accept Jesus. I guess I probably should have posted this in the Messianic Judaism DIR, for most Messianic Jews understand the OT better and could maybe help me understand better. I dont want to hear from people who simply believe Jesus is the messiah because that is what they have been taught their whole life, I want to understand the real reasons why Christianity came to be.

Part of me thinks that Jesus might have been the messiah, but I think the biggest reasons most Jews will never see this is not because of who Jesus was or what he actually did, but because of the Christian interpretation of him - which directly contradicts SO much of our theology. In essence I feel like most Jews dont reject Jesus, but rather the Christian interpretation of Jesus, or the image they made him out to be. I feel like if I can somehow get past the Christian interpretation of Jesus, and understand the core of what Jesus was, maybe I will see the truth.

Now, of course you understand that Christians identify Jesus as the Messiah, I tried to show something of why we do.
Having never read the NT and approaching it, if you ever do, with such a deepset confirmation bias (that allows you to form an opinion of it having never read it) your approach is bound to have difficulties.

I actually think I am in good position, for It will be easier for me to see the contradictions that the NT presents to OT theology, thus it will be easier for me to see the truth. If you are going to build a tower, you start by building from the bottom to the top right? I think when I read the NT, it will be a great experience for me because of this.

Your assumption that I believed the NT and sought confirmation of it in the OT is incorrect.
I came to my conviction by believing the promises made to Abraham and eventually came to Christ through that belief.
Although I had a scant, or slight background, knowledge of the NT it did not make much sense to me, had no power to touch my heart, before I understood certain things in the life of Abraham and had laughed with Sarah at Isaac's birth.

I apologize for this. Once again, I think I should have posted in the Messianic Judaism forum but o well, there is definitely knowledge to be gained here as well. Its just that most of my Christian friends who have been raised Christians, read the OT in an extremely biased way - because they are building the tower from the top to the bottom which doesn't always make sense. I apologize for making that assumption of you.

I accepted Christ because of Genesis, not Matthew, and in large part my affections remain in the OT.
So it may be that I can explain the whyto and wherefore of Christianity in a manner that you can more readily understand.
Or, there are some Messianic Jews who frequent this forum and maybe can do it better, there is a DIR for their use.
Whatever you decide, I'm not much interested in a debate, or in preaching, or in converting you, but I think I could handle a discussion.

I am glad to discuss as well. I will send you a PM.

 

[punkdbass]

Will attempt to answer you. First I see nothing wrong with not accepting Jesus as the messiah, I do not and I am not Jewish. I believe in the God of the Old Testament, but like you not sure about Jesus as the messiah. As far as God punishing you for not accepting Jesus as per the Christian belief I would have to say no. The original covenant was between God and the people of Israel and as long as you keep the original covenant you are fulfilling your obligations. Now in my case, I am not and never did enter into the original covenant. If there was a new covenant established, as put forth in the New Testament, I might be in trouble. But I would like to think that if I keep the moral laws, to the best of my ability, that God would forgive me. I guess eventually I will find out.

Thanks for the reply. Interesting, so it seems to me that you are somewhat similar to the Noahides? In Judaism, we believe that although we Jews are responsible for all the commandments of the Bible that are applicable to us, gentiles only have to follow the 7 laws of Noah(similar to the basic 10 commandments). For before God gave Moses the commandments at Mt Sinai, God gave 7 laws to Noah in Genesis. A lot of Jews believe that if gentiles follow these basic laws they will be righteous people.

I think that if you follow the moral laws to the best of your ability that God will accept you with love, for I believe that there are many paths that lead to God.

 

[dmgdnooc]

punkdbass
I look forward to your PM.
　
I think that you are right about the standard Christian interpretation (with a trinity and immortal satan and whatnot) being contrary to sound Jewish theology.
And, I agree, you are in a good position, being able to read the NT with an OT bias, it works for me.
　
Thanks for the apology, I took no offence but it shows your character in a good light.
　
nooc

 

[InChrist]

I have always been taught that the Hebrew Bible tells us the messiah will bring peace (as well as many other things of course). About a week ago I had a long coversation with an Evangelical Christian about how our religions differ on the concept of the messiah and what he is supposed to do. I asked him if the messiah is supposed to bring peace - as Micah 4:3-4 says:

"Thus he will judge among the many peoples, and arbitrate for the multitude of nations, however distant; and they shall beat their swords into plow shares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not take up sword against nation; they shall never again know war"

And he told me that he does not believe this will ever happen. I found it interesting that this man did not have faith that this would happen, when so much of Christianity is based upon faith in the messiah.

Several months ago I had done a lot of research on Christianity and Jesus, and was beginning to accept the possibility that Jesus could possibly have been the messiah, and that through the power of the gospels and his teachings that universal peace, universal knowledge of God, rebuilding the third temple, and reuniting all the Jews to Israel(among several other unfulfilled prophecies) would eventually be fulfilled because of Jesus. But then a person pointed out to me how Muhammed, Ghandi, Buddha, and several other religious figures have arguable contributed just as much to these prophecies, if not more, than what Jesus has. So again I was back to square one of rejecting Jesus as the messiah... I guess I just really want to be able to understand the Christian view of Jesus as the Messiah, for I am confused.

Anyhow, so my question is, do Christians believe the messiah is supposed to bring peace? I simply want to understand why our views of the messiah differ so greatly, anyone who could help explain this to me, I will greatly appreciate it

Sorry for the lengthy post, I am not trying to start a debate at all, I just want to hear your guys responses! Thanks.

If you are interested, I suggest the Jews 4 Jesus website. They are Jewish people that believe Jesus is the Messiah who will fulfill the scripture you posted above and bring peace to the earth. They have Jewish heritage and background as you do and understand your perspective and have probably asked the same questions. There is a section under ANSWERS on their website called "Jesus the Messiah" which has a list of questions such as the ones you have asked.

May God bless and guide you as you seek answers.

Jesus - http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/jesus/

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I do not believe Jesus was the messiah expected by the Jews.

Christians tend to hang the status of Jesus on many Old Testament writings.
Jesus needs neither prophecies nor attempts to show fulfilment of pre-Christian texts to establish himself.

Jesus made few claims for himself, his being the messiah was not one of them.

 

[InChrist]

I do not believe Jesus was the messiah expected by the Jews.

Christians tend to hang the status of Jesus on many Old Testament writings.
Jesus needs neither prophecies nor attempts to show fulfilment of pre-Christian texts to establish himself.

Jesus made few claims for himself, his being the messiah was not one of them.

Your beliefs are understandable considering you classify yourself a heretic.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Your beliefs are understandable considering you classify yourself a heretic.

Viewed from the position of a different denomination all Christians are Heretical.

It seems all the abrahamic faiths interpolate their beliefs from what were very few initial beliefs, These grew with each generation of teachers and scholars.

To day the complexity of such denominations as the Catholic Church are difficult to fathom. As are the numerous Jewish laws derived from the initial few commandments. one can also add all the Muslim hadiths and fatwas, which are easily seen as having the power of law.

I would say the heretic is the norm.

 

[punkdbass]

If you are interested, I suggest the Jews 4 Jesus website. They are Jewish people that believe Jesus is the Messiah who will fulfill the scripture you posted above and bring peace to the earth. They have Jewish heritage and background as you do and understand your perspective and have probably asked the same questions. There is a section under ANSWERS on their website called "Jesus the Messiah" which has a list of questions such as the ones you have asked.

May God bless and guide you as you seek answers.

Jesus - Jesus - http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/jesus/

Thank you for your suggestion. In the past I explored the Jews for Jesus organization, and was on the path too proclaiming myself a Messianic Jew. However, I also took the time to research Jews for Judaism, and get the Jewish response to all of my questions. I soon, and overwhelmingly realized that too much of Christian ideology directly contradicts the Hebrew Bible that we Jews read. And although I think Christianity is a wonderful religion that has done so much for people(I truly can't put my appreciation into words), I just feel like since I was born Jewish, I have certain responsibilities that most people don't have, and I can't just dismiss these responsibilities out of ignorance - I was born Jewish for a reason.

I really do think Jesus plays a crucial role in God's plan, and I am still trying to figure out exactly how. We Jews are supposed to be a light to other nations, as Isaiah teaches us.. and I think its fair to say that Jesus, a Jew, has brought more people to the light of God than perhaps any other Jew. I think this fact can not be overlooked and must be respected, and I do plan to read the NT one day, to at least study Jesus's words and determine for myself if he is a true prophet or not. But for now, too much of Christian ideology simply contradicts the Bible I read, and I feel like I was born with the responsibility and obligation to acknowledge that, and stay true to my Jewish roots and Torah.

I have had this discussion with so many Christians, so I doubt you could bring anything new to the table. No Christian has been able to explain to me why I would need Jesus. I know my sins can be forgiven without Jesus's blood(feel free to read my proof for this here).. and I don't understand why I need to devote myself to the "messiah" when not a single verse in the Hebrew Bible says eternal salvation is achieved through devotion to the messiah. Rather we Jews are taught to put ALL of our devotion to the one and only God, and to Him alone. For God revealed Himself to my people long ago at Mt. Sinai.. and we have been worshiping Him ever since, for He is our savior as Isaiah 43:3 says. We have faith in Him and that ALL of his promises/prophecies will be fulfilled. Why would I ever need to be my faith and devotion to someone else?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Thank you for your suggestion. In the past I explored the Jews for Jesus organization, and was on the path too proclaiming myself a Messianic Jew. However, I also took the time to research Jews for Judaism, and get the Jewish response to all of my questions. I soon, and overwhelmingly realized that too much of Christian ideology directly contradicts the Hebrew Bible that we Jews read. And although I think Christianity is a wonderful religion that has done so much for people(I truly can't put my appreciation into words), I just feel like since I was born Jewish, I have certain responsibilities that most people don't have, and I can't just dismiss these responsibilities out of ignorance - I was born Jewish for a reason.

I really do think Jesus plays a crucial role in God's plan, and I am still trying to figure out exactly how. We Jews are supposed to be a light to other nations, as Isaiah teaches us.. and I think its fair to say that Jesus, a Jew, has brought more people to the light of God than perhaps any other Jew. I think this fact can not be overlooked and must be respected, and I do plan to read the NT one day, to at least study Jesus's words and determine for myself if he is a true prophet or not. But for now, too much of Christian ideology simply contradicts the Bible I read, and I feel like I was born with the responsibility and obligation to acknowledge that, and stay true to my Jewish roots and Torah.

I have had this discussion with so many Christians, so I doubt you could bring anything new to the table. No Christian has been able to explain to me why I would need Jesus. I know my sins can be forgiven without Jesus's blood(feel free to read my proof for this here).. and I don't understand why I need to devote myself to the "messiah" when not a single verse in the Hebrew Bible says eternal salvation is achieved through devotion to the messiah. Rather we Jews are taught to put ALL of our devotion to the one and only God, and to Him alone. For God revealed Himself to my people long ago at Mt. Sinai.. and we have been worshiping Him ever since, for He is our savior as Isaiah 43:3 says. We have faith in Him and that ALL of his promises/prophecies will be fulfilled. Why would I ever need to be my faith and devotion to someone else?

As a practising Jew you do not need Jesus to Bring you to God.

However what Jesus did do in his teaching, was to reinterpret much of the Jewish Bible, to fit better with his view of God as a God of Love and Forgiveness and every thing that flows from that. His teachings can bring every one closer to God.

Reading the Old testament (as all Christians do in their services) emphasises the commands and power of God and shows his more authoritarian side and evidence of his wrath towards sinners and non believers.

Jews and Christians have a common heritage of Interpretation... The significance of Jesus death on the cross and the link with forgiveness from sin... is one such interpretation of the Bible to explain the necessity for his death.
Another interpretation might be ( my own therefore "Heretical") is that Jesus Died as an final Example of self sacrifice for others... an ultimate gift.

His death and the legacy of his teachings, has certainly ensured that the Christian Faith grew to be the largest on Earth, and shown the way to Gods love to Millions of people.

Reading the Gospels in the new Testament is certainly worth while, if only to learn the meaning of Love and Tolerance, from a great master.

I would expect that to become a modern Trinitarian Christian would be a step too far, for one brought up with the concept of responsibility to the covenant of God.

If you read the Didiche. You will see how close the teachings and concepts of Christianity were to Jews who were using it, during the first generation of Christians, as a teaching ( apprenticeship) for Gentile converts. It bears little relationship to Christianity today.

This is from the Jewish encyclopedia. and give a Jewish perspective.
JewishEncyclopedia.com - DIDACHE

I prefer the book by Aaron Milavec which has a more modern researched interpretation, which shows both the original Greek and English text and his own analysis and commentary, as it gives a very neutral view.

 

[rusra02]

I have always been taught that the Hebrew Bible tells us the messiah will bring peace (as well as many other things of course). About a week ago I had a long coversation with an Evangelical Christian about how our religions differ on the concept of the messiah and what he is supposed to do. I asked him if the messiah is supposed to bring peace - as Micah 4:3-4 says:

"Thus he will judge among the many peoples, and arbitrate for the multitude of nations, however distant; and they shall beat their swords into plow shares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not take up sword against nation; they shall never again know war"

And he told me that he does not believe this will ever happen. I found it interesting that this man did not have faith that this would happen, when so much of Christianity is based upon faith in the messiah.

Several months ago I had done a lot of research on Christianity and Jesus, and was beginning to accept the possibility that Jesus could possibly have been the messiah, and that through the power of the gospels and his teachings that universal peace, universal knowledge of God, rebuilding the third temple, and reuniting all the Jews to Israel(among several other unfulfilled prophecies) would eventually be fulfilled because of Jesus. But then a person pointed out to me how Muhammed, Ghandi, Buddha, and several other religious figures have arguable contributed just as much to these prophecies, if not more, than what Jesus has. So again I was back to square one of rejecting Jesus as the messiah... I guess I just really want to be able to understand the Christian view of Jesus as the Messiah, for I am confused.

Anyhow, so my question is, do Christians believe the messiah is supposed to bring peace? I simply want to understand why our views of the messiah differ so greatly, anyone who could help explain this to me, I will greatly appreciate it

Sorry for the lengthy post, I am not trying to start a debate at all, I just want to hear your guys responses! Thanks.

You are correct in believing Jesus as the true Messiah will bring peace. At his birth, angels are reported to have sung "peace among men of goodwill". (Luke 2:10-14)
The prophecy you quoted in Micah is also written in Isaiah 2:2-4. There is mentioned that in the final part of the days, true worshipers of God would beat their swords into plowshares, not learning war any more. Thus, this prophesy has a fulfillment even today among God's true worshipers. In the future the Bible promises peace earth wide. (Psalms 37:10,11,29).
The followers of Ghandi, Mohammed, Buddha, and others have proved far from peaceful, as has professed "Christians" who have not shrank from murdering each other, and others, by the millions. At the same time, true worshipers refuse in every nation they reside in, to take up arms or do violence to fellow humans at the behest of governments or other groups. They are following the Messiah (Christ) who set the perfect pattern of peacefulness and love.

 

[Madhuri]

The followers of Ghandi, Mohammed, Buddha, and others have proved far from peaceful, as has professed "Christians" who have not shrank from murdering each other, and others, by the millions. At the same time, true worshipers refuse in every nation they reside in, to take up arms or do violence to fellow humans at the behest of governments or other groups. They are following the Messiah (Christ) who set the perfect pattern of peacefulness and love.

Followers of Ghandi He was just a man who took up pacifism for himself. Not a representative of God.
Buddhists are perhaps the most peaceful people, as a whole, in the world.

But aside from that, are Christians conflicted over what is supposed to happen to the world? I hear some say that when Jesus comes again there will be peace on Earth. But then there are all these end of world beliefs that involve the utter destruction of the Earth with Jesus' second coming. Can you clarify for me?

 

[Thief]

I have always been taught that the Hebrew Bible tells us the messiah will bring peace (as well as many other things of course). About a week ago I had a long coversation with an Evangelical Christian about how our religions differ on the concept of the messiah and what he is supposed to do. I asked him if the messiah is supposed to bring peace - as Micah 4:3-4 says:

"Thus he will judge among the many peoples, and arbitrate for the multitude of nations, however distant; and they shall beat their swords into plow shares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not take up sword against nation; they shall never again know war"

And he told me that he does not believe this will ever happen. I found it interesting that this man did not have faith that this would happen, when so much of Christianity is based upon faith in the messiah.

Several months ago I had done a lot of research on Christianity and Jesus, and was beginning to accept the possibility that Jesus could possibly have been the messiah, and that through the power of the gospels and his teachings that universal peace, universal knowledge of God, rebuilding the third temple, and reuniting all the Jews to Israel(among several other unfulfilled prophecies) would eventually be fulfilled because of Jesus. But then a person pointed out to me how Muhammed, Ghandi, Buddha, and several other religious figures have arguable contributed just as much to these prophecies, if not more, than what Jesus has. So again I was back to square one of rejecting Jesus as the messiah... I guess I just really want to be able to understand the Christian view of Jesus as the Messiah, for I am confused.

Anyhow, so my question is, do Christians believe the messiah is supposed to bring peace? I simply want to understand why our views of the messiah differ so greatly, anyone who could help explain this to me, I will greatly appreciate it

Sorry for the lengthy post, I am not trying to start a debate at all, I just want to hear your guys responses! Thanks.

As I grew up....
The Carpenter of Nazareth was hailed as the Prince of Peace.

In scripture I read quotes of His speech....
'I have come not with peace, but with a sword.'
'Let him with a coat, sell his coat and buy a sword.'
'I have come to turn son against father, daughter against mother....'

In Revelation, He is described having a doubled edged sword proceed from His mouth.

I understand.

 

[InChrist]

Thank you for your suggestion. In the past I explored the Jews for Jesus organization, and was on the path too proclaiming myself a Messianic Jew. However, I also took the time to research Jews for Judaism, and get the Jewish response to all of my questions. I soon, and overwhelmingly realized that too much of Christian ideology directly contradicts the Hebrew Bible that we Jews read. And although I think Christianity is a wonderful religion that has done so much for people(I truly can't put my appreciation into words), I just feel like since I was born Jewish, I have certain responsibilities that most people don't have, and I can't just dismiss these responsibilities out of ignorance - I was born Jewish for a reason.

I really do think Jesus plays a crucial role in God's plan, and I am still trying to figure out exactly how. We Jews are supposed to be a light to other nations, as Isaiah teaches us.. and I think its fair to say that Jesus, a Jew, has brought more people to the light of God than perhaps any other Jew. I think this fact can not be overlooked and must be respected, and I do plan to read the NT one day, to at least study Jesus's words and determine for myself if he is a true prophet or not. But for now, too much of Christian ideology simply contradicts the Bible I read, and I feel like I was born with the responsibility and obligation to acknowledge that, and stay true to my Jewish roots and Torah.

I have had this discussion with so many Christians, so I doubt you could bring anything new to the table. No Christian has been able to explain to me why I would need Jesus. I know my sins can be forgiven without Jesus's blood(feel free to read my proof for this here).. and I don't understand why I need to devote myself to the "messiah" when not a single verse in the Hebrew Bible says eternal salvation is achieved through devotion to the messiah. Rather we Jews are taught to put ALL of our devotion to the one and only God, and to Him alone. For God revealed Himself to my people long ago at Mt. Sinai.. and we have been worshiping Him ever since, for He is our savior as Isaiah 43:3 says. We have faith in Him and that ALL of his promises/prophecies will be fulfilled. Why would I ever need to be my faith and devotion to someone else?

I think it is a good thing that you feel a responsibility to your Jewish roots and the Torah. When I read the OT and the NT I see Jesus as the Savior spoken of in Isaiah 43:3 and other passages. I believe Jesus is Yahweh who fulfilled many prophecies and will continue to fulfill each one as He promised.

 

[punkdbass]

As a practising Jew you do not need Jesus to Bring you to God.

However what Jesus did do in his teaching, was to reinterpret much of the Jewish Bible, to fit better with his view of God as a God of Love and Forgiveness and every thing that flows from that. His teachings can bring every one closer to God.

Right. And I have a feeling all of what you said is right, and that is why I want to read the NT someday.

Reading the Gospels in the new Testament is certainly worth while, if only to learn the meaning of Love and Tolerance, from a great master.

Agreed, thanks for your input. And I have never heard of the Didache before but I will look into it.