Do Christians hate us

[ZenMonkey]

Jesus was exactly like us, only he was a sinless soul who came from heaven to save and free us from the bondage of sin.


John 3:13 - "No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man."


John 6:35-38 - "And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me."

 

[nash8]

Jesus was exactly like us, only he was a sinless soul who came from heaven to save and free us from the bondage of sin.

Is dissapearing from your parent's a sin? I thought the commandment's said to obey they father and mother?

Is flipping over tables to stop someone from doing their job a sin?

I can quote a few more if you'd like. What's your defintion of sin?

 

[ZenMonkey]

Jesus was exactly like us, only he was a sinless soul who came from heaven to save and free us from the bondage of sin.

Is dissapearing from your parent's a sin? I thought the commandment's said to obey they father and mother?

Is flipping over tables to stop someone from doing their job a sin?

I can quote a few more if you'd like. What's your defintion of sin?

No, these are not sins. Jesus wandering off to go about his fathers business is not a sin. Knocking over a few tables because of the misrepresentation of his father by making the temple into den of thieves is not a sin? Sin is anything against love and/or truth. Jesus stood for love and truth and THAT is certainly no sin.

 

[illykitty]

If your beef is with the OT mainly, shouldn't this be called "Do Jews hate us?" (Or are people too scared to criticise Judaism? They know their stuff! )

And btw, I don't think either do. Some individuals saying that they are Christians or Jews might... But I don't see how God or Jesus would approve of their conduct.

Regardless those people would use anything to validate their misbehaviour.

 

[ZenMonkey]

I'd like to add that if a person believes in the power of love, they are likewise believing in Jesus' name. Those who have faith in love will be saved from sin. Those who don't believe are condemned already because they don't believe in the power of love to save us.


Love leads us to great comfort and joy. It likewise leads us to life. Sin stands in direct opposition to love. Sin is our adversary because sin leads to evil, suffering, and death. I myself view love to be the tree (path) of life, even as I view sin to be the tree (path) of the knowledge of evil, which is in stark contrast to that which is good. Jesus said that there are none good but God. God is love.

 

[metis]

All Christians believe that salvation only comes through faith in Christ...

That's actually not at all true. I saw a poll taken of Christians here in the States maybe a year or so ago that, when asked if only Christians can possibly go to heaven, most said no. Even though my wife, who's Christian, wasn't polled, she has never believed that just Christians will be in heaven.

 

[captainbryce]

if you all continue to take the thread as an attack that's ok,

That's exactly what it was, AN ATTACK, and you continue to attack (as I will show below)

i will just accept this is a result of your insecurities and ignore that.

The only person who seems to be insecure here is you. I've just provided the answers to your question, but instead of accepting them with humility and admitting that your attack hold's no water in the face of the facts, you continue to try to defend your stance here. That is the definition of insecurity! Just admit you are WRONG and stop trying to pretend that there is some merit to your copy and paste job.

As i said,my knowledge is limited and i posted a question about the verses i found,not an attack,only seeking the facts.

A very empty statement considering that you've now been given the facts, yet you are still attacking.

Now it seems they were not violent,they could only slaughter and destroy their own people and cities who for some reason were unable to exercise their god given free will and turn away from their worship.

You at least confirmed the disgusting violence expected of them.

Nobody here is interested in your hypocritical judgement's regarding the violence of the Jewish people (another attack BTW). Sometimes violence is necessary! Cops engage in violence all the time to protect the innocent. The military engages in violence to ensure our way of life. I don't here you complaining about how "disgusting" these people are.

Now can you address the parts about witches and gays, a man who lays with a man who is not a woman should be put to death, though should not suffer a witch to live.

I could. But something tells me that would fall on deaf ears since you continue to try to misrepresent and judge self-righteously. Honestly, what's the point of me even explaining that TO YOU? Will it change your views? In any case, such questions are completely irrelevant because it's not a question that is applicable to Christianity (for the aforementioned reasons).

Can you tap dance around that,excuse me i mean can you explain that one.

You're not excused. I could explain it, but at this point I choose not to because you have a condescending, attacking, non-receptive attitude that isn't worth of true response. Nothing you've said so far would lead me to believe that you'd be receptive to such an explanation, so I don't see the point.

I guess you haven't quite reached this "enlightenment" huh?

 

[payak]

The bible is more of a history book illustrating the way mankind has viewed God throughout the ages. It just proves that no one truly knew God before Jesus. No one has ever seen God. However, Jesus revealed the truth of God to us. Mankind has been using God to justify their evil deeds for ages. Some still do. This doesn't mean that there is no truth in the OT. It only means that no one (including the Jewish people) truly knew his will for man. Jesus did. He was God's son and he revealed the truth of God to us, making God known.




John 1:18 - No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

Thankyou,these are the answers I was looking for

 

[captainbryce]

That's actually not at all true. I saw a poll taken of Christians here in the States maybe a year or so ago that, when asked if only Christians can possibly go to heaven, most said no. Even though my wife, who's Christian, wasn't polled, she has never believed that just Christians will be in heaven.

If they don't believe that salvation is through Christ alone, then they are not Christians, nor have they read the bible. People can BELIEVE whatever they want to believe. But you cannot claim that you are a follower of Christ while rejecting his teachings.

 

[metis]

If they don't believe that salvation is through Christ alone, then they are not Christians, nor have they read the bible. People can BELIEVE whatever they want to believe. But you cannot claim that you are a follower of Christ while rejecting his teachings.

Isn't it rather presumptuous of you to declare who's a Christian and who's not? And I just read your statement above to my wife, and she asks you why would you treat fellow Christians like this, and that she actually believes that God is her final judge-- not you?

BTW, it says in gospels that Abraham was in heaven, but he certainly couldn't have believed in Jesus since it would be a long time before Jesus was to be born. So, how could Abraham possibly have ended up in heaven since he didn't have Jesus as his "personal savior"?

Finally, why would anyone believe in a deity that is nothing short of a genocidal maniac? There are roughly 2 billion Christians and 5 billion non-Christians, so are we to believe that these 5 billion, plus the "not true Christians" that have a different interpretation than you, are all condemned to eternal damnation because they don't have a politically-correct belief? And what about the billions before?

 

[payak]

That's exactly what it was, AN ATTACK, and you continue to attack (as I will show below)

The only person who seems to be insecure here is you. I've just provided the answers to your question, but instead of accepting them with humility and admitting that your attack hold's no water in the face of the facts, you continue to try to defend your stance here. That is the definition of insecurity! Just admit you are WRONG and stop trying to pretend that there is some merit to your copy and paste job.

A very empty statement considering that you've now been given the facts, yet you are still attacking.



Nobody here is interested in your hypocritical judgement's regarding the violence of the Jewish people (another attack BTW). Sometimes violence is necessary! Cops engage in violence all the time to protect the innocent. The military engages in violence to ensure our way of life. I don't here you complaining about how "disgusting" these people are.

I could. But something tells me that would fall on deaf ears since you continue to try to misrepresent and judge self-righteously. Honestly, what's the point of me even explaining that TO YOU? Will it change your views? In any case, such questions are completely irrelevant because it's not a question that is applicable to Christianity (for the aforementioned reasons).

You're not excused. I could explain it, but at this point I choose not to because you have a condescending, attacking, non-receptive attitude that isn't worth of true response. Nothing you've said so far would lead me to believe that you'd be receptive to such an explanation, so I don't see the point.

I guess you haven't quite reached this "enlightenment" huh?

You say I am not worthy of a response yet you keep on giving the longest responses,I knew you would avoid the verses mentioned.

They are relevant to christians,not just Jews,and I am entitle to seek answers so hopefully you take some deep breaths and calm down before your next post.

Your quite hostile,very unchristian unlike some other posters who have been quite helpfull and are smart enough to know I am asking and not judging.

 

[ZenMonkey]

Thankyou,these are the answers I was looking for

You're welcome? That view is the only way I can reconcile the OT with the NT. I chalk it up to ignorance (lack of knowledge) of God's true nature on the part of the OT writers. Jesus revealed God to us and God's will for us, which can be summed up in a single word, "love".


Love saves all ya'll! :yes:

 

[captainbryce]

They are relevant to christians,not just Jews,and I am entitle to seek answers so hopefully you take some deep breaths and calm down before your next post.

Breath taken! HOW exactly is it relevant to Christianity? I mean first you claim to be ignorant of Christianity (seeking answers) and now apparently you are the expert on what is relevant to Christianity. So if you explain how a text addressed at the pre-messianic Jews 4,000 years ago is relevant to post-messianic Christians today, I might have a better change of helping you.

Your quite hostile,very unchristian unlike some other posters who have been quite helpfull and are smart enough to know I am asking and not judging.

I'm not interested in your opinion of me. Your entire thread is an attack on Christianity (as your follow up responses have been). You say that other posters have been helpful. Tell me, did they have any more luck answering the question that you're still asking?

I answered your questions. If you don't like my answers then I'm sorry. But answering questions about ancient Jewish laws are not required to justify Christianity. That's the part you don't seem to be getting.

 

[ZenMonkey]

I'm not telling other "Christians" anything. I am a Christian who is just making a logical statement of fact. It is not logical to claim that you are a follower of a religion, philosophy, or idea while blatantly rejecting, ignoring or putting aside one of the central tenets of that religion, philosophy, or idea. It's a contradiction!

The fact is, you are NOT a moderator here. That being the case, I'm really not interested in your opinion of me. Now, do you have anything more relevant to this thread to discuss, or do you just want to throw out personal insults at me (in violation of rule 1), "former moderator"?

I thought a Christian was someone who followed the Christ. :yes: Christianity is something else entirely. Christ was the way, truth, and life. Christianity is religion. To follow Christ means to partake of the Spirit he lived through, which was love. To follow Christ means to likewise partake in God's will for us, which is to live through love.


It's a very simple message. God is love and God's will is that we love and be loved. Christianity as a religion tries to combine both the ignorance (lack of knowledge) of the OT writers, and the truth of God (love) revealed by Jesus together. By doing so, it by and large makes the truth Christ revealed to us of non-effect.

 

[captainbryce]

Isn't it rather presumptuous of you to declare who's a Christian and who's not?

I am making no such declarations about ANYONE in particular. I haven't declared anyone to be a Christian or anyone to be a non-Christian. I don't have to "presume" anything. All I have to do is read the bible. And all I've done here, is affirm what Christ himself said.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity—the man Christ Jesus.

Now, YOU may be able to find some ambiguity in these otherwise very clear passages that helps your reconcile your belief that someone can be saved without Jesus. And if so, I wish you (and whoever else might believe that) the best. Since I've already been accused of being a "troll" simply for offering my opinion here, I'm not going to respond to this particular point of debate any further.

And I just read your statement above to my wife, and she asks you why would you treat fellow Christians like this, and that she actually believes that God is her final judge-- not you?

I'm not treating anyone in any particular way. I agree that God is her final judge (nor have I ever claimed otherwise). I'm sorry that my opinion offends her or yourself, but my opinion stands. I go with what the scripture says!

BTW, it says in gospels that Abraham was in heaven, but he certainly couldn't have believed in Jesus since it would be a long time before Jesus was to be born. So, how could Abraham possibly have ended up in heaven since he didn't have Jesus as his "personal savior"?

The question for how someone living BEFORE Christ could have gone to heaven is answered here:

Romans 3:25-26
25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Finally, why would anyone believe in a deity that is nothing short of a genocidal maniac?

They wouldn't. Nor would I.

There are roughly 2 billion Christians and 5 billion non-Christians, so are we to believe that these 5 billion, plus the "not true Christians" that have a different interpretation than you, are all condemned to eternal damnation because they don't have a politically-correct belief?

No, we aren't to believe that. Nor is that my belief. There are too many presumptions (false assumptions really) here to provide a response to this in the length allotted. Suffice it to say, I don't believe that "eternal damnation" means what you think it means. Beyond that, I believe that EVERYONE will have the opportunity to know Christ and attain salvation. I believe that this is God's plan.

And what about the billions before?

This question is answered in Romans 3:25-26

 

[captainbryce]

I thought a Christian was someone who followed the Christ. :yes: Christianity is something else entirely. Christ was the way, truth, and life. Christianity is religion. To follow Christ means to partake of the Spirit he lived through, which was love. To follow Christ means to likewise partake in God's will for us, which is to live through love.

It's a very simple message. God is love and God's will is that we love and be loved. Christianity as a religion tries to combine both the ignorance (lack of knowledge) of the OT writers, and the truth of God (love) revealed by Jesus together. By doing so, it by and large makes the truth Christ revealed to us of non-effect.

This sounds more like a rant against organized religion, or the Roman Catholic Church, or some specific entity. To that, I am rather neutral and don't really have anything to add. I will say that I think your argument is largely one of semantics.

Christianity - 'n': the religion derived from Jesus Christ, based on the Bible as sacred scripture, and professed by Eastern, Roman Catholic, and Protestant bodies

So rather than get caught up in the semantic debate about which word means what, I'll just state that anyone who believes that people can achieve salvation WITHOUT Jesus Christ is going against what Jesus Christ taught in the bible. Now, whatever word you want to attribute that to is up to you. Some people who think this way like to refer to themselves as "Christians", and that's their prerogative. However they justify this train of thought to themselves is not my concern; that's between them and God. As someone else already pointed out, I'm not anyone's judge. Again, I'm simply affirming what scripture already says and I tend to refer to such individuals as "anti-Christ" because such views go directly against what Christ taught. It's that simple!

 

[Windwalker]

I'm not telling other "Christians" anything. I am a Christian who is just making a logical statement of fact. It is not logical to claim that you are a follower of a religion, philosophy, or idea while blatantly rejecting, ignoring or putting aside one of the central tenets of that religion, philosophy, or idea. It's a contradiction!

The fact is, you are NOT a moderator here. That being the case, I'm really not interested in your opinion of me. Now, do you have anything more relevant to this thread to discuss, or do you just want to throw out personal insults at me (in violation of rule 1), "former moderator"?

Oh crap! I'm sorry. I thought it was Payack who said that. I retract everything I said and offer my apologies. It wasn't you I was directed that at.

 

[ZenMonkey]

This sounds more like a rant against organized religion, or the Roman Catholic Church, or some specific entity. To that, I am rather neutral and don't really have anything to add. I will say that I think your argument is largely one of semantics.

Christianity - 'n': the religion derived from Jesus Christ, based on the Bible as sacred scripture, and professed by Eastern, Roman Catholic, and Protestant bodies

So rather than get caught up in the semantic debate about which word means what, I'll just state that anyone who believes that people can achieve salvation WITHOUT Jesus Christ is going against what Jesus Christ taught in the bible. Now, whatever word you want to attribute that to is up to you. Some people who think this way like to refer to themselves as "Christians", and that's their prerogative. However they justify this train of thought to themselves is not my concern; that's between them and God. As someone else already pointed out, I'm not anyone's judge. Again, I'm simply affirming what scripture already says and I tend to refer to such individuals as "anti-Christ" because such views go directly against what Christ taught. It's that simple!

Actually, what I'm suggesting is that Christianity as a religion attempts to mingle truth with untruth, knowledge with ignorance. The OT reveals how the Jewish people viewed their God, whereas the NT reveals the truth of God through Christ. Much of the OT identifies God as a jealous war god, whereas the NT identifies God as love. There is much truth to be drawn from the OT, but when something in the OT stands in opposition to love, you can rest assured that is was man's sin nature (Satan) that was the culprit behind that opposition.


As for Christ being the only way, I agree. Jesus' blood represents the Spirit he lived through. The spirit was his life force. It was the Spirit he lived through that was poured out into the world that we might be forgiven by living through it. The same Spirit that enabled him to lead a sinless life enables us to live according to God's will also. This is how our sins are forgiven ... by living through "love". We become as Jesus was when we too are led by the Spirit and taught by God.


Let it be!

 

[captainbryce]

Oh crap! I'm sorry. I thought it was Payack who said that. I retract everything I said and offer my apologies. It wasn't you I was directed that at.

Fair enough. That being the case, I apologize for my harsh retort and will promptly delete it.

Cheers!

 

[captainbryce]

Actually, what I'm suggesting is that Christianity as a religion attempts to mingle truth with untruth, knowledge with ignorance. The OT reveals how the Jewish people viewed their God, whereas the NT reveals the truth of God through Christ. Much of the OT identifies God as a jealous war god, whereas the NT identifies God as love. There is much truth to be drawn from the OT, but when something in the OT stands in opposition to love, you can rest assured that is was man's sin nature (Satan) that was the culprit behind that opposition.


As for Christ being the only way, I agree. Jesus' blood represents the Spirit he lived through. The spirit was his life force. It was the Spirit he lived through that was poured out into the world that we might be forgiven by living through it. The same Spirit that enabled him to lead a sinless life enables us to live according to God's will also. This is how our sins are forgiven ... by living through "love". We become as Jesus was when we too are led by the Spirit and taught by God.


Let it be!

Agreed!