This thread is a continuation of a few recent threads on RF.
Context: In the last decade, there has been a 2,000% increase in people coming out as transgender. It is widely reported (and not contested in this OP), that trans youth have a high incidence of suffering from various mental health issues, including thoughts of suicide. It is now widely accepted practice to provide chemical castration and/or surgical castration to youths who identify as trans and suffer mental health issues.
Should Castration of minors be banned?
On this forum, I've proposed that castration of minors be banned. This proposal has been met with fierce push back. Here are the main counter-arguments I've heard:
I - Castration of minors saves lives.
II - Castration of minors is included in the official "Standard of Care" (SOC), for transgender people.
III - The medical community have all agreed on castration
I will to respond to all of those arguments, but first I want to talk about who needs to provide the burden of proof concerning this important question:
1 - Castration is an extreme measure: There are a wide range of possible professional interventions for trans youths. Castration must be viewed as being on the extreme end of the spectrum. We already know many dire long term effects of these interventions, and they are so new that we cannot yet know how effective they will be in the long term.
2 - Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence: It's more than reasonable to hold the proponent's claims to an extremely high standard. A well known guideline / tool in critical thinking says: "Extraordinary claims, require extraordinary evidence". When we apply that tool to this situation, the burden of proof falls to the proponents of castration. It's up to them to prove - without much doubt at all - that:
- the negative aspects of these extreme measures are well communicated to potential patients and advocates,
- their long term efficacy is proven,
- the organizations supporting these extreme measures are beyond reproach
== Is the "Standard of Care" (SOC), published by WPATH above criticism or doubt?
An organization called WPATH is largely responsible for creating and publishing the SOC used to defend castration. In previous debates, when I've posted links to counter-arguments, I've sometimes been told that the links I've provided come from groups or issues who are advocating for a position. I would say that almost everyone involved in this debate is an advocate to some degree. Importantly, WPATH is largely an advocacy group. WPATH has an agenda.
Suing Over Medical Transition: The Case Against Considering Wpath as a Competent, Reasonable Body of Expert Opinion. - Genspect
Suing Over Medical Transition: The Case Against Considering Wpath as a Competent, Reasonable Body of Expert Opinion. - Genspect
== Is the Medical Community all in Agreement?
There is no doubt that if you search the internet, you can find many seemingly reputable organizations that support the castration option. But there are a growing number of reputable organizations that are questioning this extreme course of action. Here are a few:
One Size Does Not Fit All: In Support of Psychotherapy for Gender Dysphoria
An Epidemic of Unnecessary Treatment
The NHS Ends the "Gender-Affirmative Care Model" for Youth in England
https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-conte...ce-Services-for-Children-and-Young-People.pdf
== Is the Medical Community Beyond Reproach
I think that most doctors, nurses, and hospitals are well intended and qualified. But sadly the "industry" is largely driven by a strong profit motive, and the profiteers run hospitals, the doctors do not . A bestseller called "Bitter Pill", and videos related "Bitter Pill" can provide a good overview of rampant profiteering in the medical "industry". And make no mistake, providing care to transgender is big business. This article claims that the potential "market" for trans care is $200 BILLION dollars. Further, the average cost of transitioning is $150,000.
Trans-Tech Is A Budding Industry: So Why Is No One Investing In It?
Doctors, Drug Companies, And Others Who Profit From Transgenderism - CDM - Human Reporters • Not Machines
Bitter Pill: Why Medical Bills Are Killing Us
== Does Castration Save Lives?
This claim has become a sort of meme in these discussions. But is it true? The main "proof" for this claim is studies that follow youths before and after castration. The studies claim that incidence of suicidal thoughts go down after castration. That sounds good on the surface. But almost all major surgeries have strong, impermanent impacts on patients' mental health. These surgeries have been widespread for only a handful of years, so definitive understanding of the long term mental health benefits cannot yet be known.
Further, some of the widely cited studies used to support the claim that castration "saves lives" are now under suspicion:
https://accpjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jac5.1691
Researchers Found Puberty Blockers And Hormones Didn’t Improve Trans Kids’ Mental Health At Their Clinic. Then They Published A Study Claiming The Opposite. (Updated)
== Ecological Psychology, the lives of today's youth
Traditional science is quite powerful, no doubt! But one key approach used in most research is to slice and dice complex situations into pieces, isolate a few variables, and do tests on those isolated variables. Again, this approach has proven itself to be very powerful. But it has its limits.
A newer approach to doing science is called ecological psychology. The premise is that complex systems must be studied in their whole, including the environment in which the systems exist.
It's important to remember that all professional interventions for trans youths are based on the feelings that these youth experience. In general, when psychologists are helping people with feelings that cause distress, they consider environmental factors such as:
- the financial security and general health of the family
- artificial diets
- contaminated drinking water
- poor air quality
- social media influence, and amplified peer pressure
- post-truth academia
- the rise of and exposure to polarizing extremists at every end of every spectrum
- easy access to every form of pornography and fetishism
- a massive increase in information consumption
- the threat of destroying our life-sustaining environment
- an oligarchy that poisons many aspects of our lives, including widespread profiteering in the medical "industry"
We also know that puberty is an extremely confusing and distressing time for many young people.
We also know that the brains of youth are not fully developed until the age of 25 or so, and that all youths have the highest suicide rates:
Suicide rate highest among teens and young adults
The Teen Mental Illness Epidemic is International: The Anglosphere
Number of teens who ‘don’t enjoy life’ has doubled with social media
== Restating the claim of castration supporters:
To summarize, it seems to me that when you flesh out the claims made by proponents of castrating youths, you end up with:
We support the policy of castrating youths who feel as though they're in the wrong body, while acknowledging:
- The oft cited standard of care (SOC), is authored by WPATH, an advocacy group
- The medical industry is rife with profiteering
- Trans care is potentially a $200 BILLION business
- Many reputable health organizations are now questioning the efficacy of castration
- Castration is known to have many detrimental, long term health side effects
- The claim of "saving lives" has no long term proof
- Modern psychology understands that today's youth live an unprecedentedly complex, stressful, and propaganda swamped world
==
It seems to me that pro-castration advocates have not proved their case with extraordinarily good evidence.
Context: In the last decade, there has been a 2,000% increase in people coming out as transgender. It is widely reported (and not contested in this OP), that trans youth have a high incidence of suffering from various mental health issues, including thoughts of suicide. It is now widely accepted practice to provide chemical castration and/or surgical castration to youths who identify as trans and suffer mental health issues.
Should Castration of minors be banned?
On this forum, I've proposed that castration of minors be banned. This proposal has been met with fierce push back. Here are the main counter-arguments I've heard:
I - Castration of minors saves lives.
II - Castration of minors is included in the official "Standard of Care" (SOC), for transgender people.
III - The medical community have all agreed on castration
I will to respond to all of those arguments, but first I want to talk about who needs to provide the burden of proof concerning this important question:
1 - Castration is an extreme measure: There are a wide range of possible professional interventions for trans youths. Castration must be viewed as being on the extreme end of the spectrum. We already know many dire long term effects of these interventions, and they are so new that we cannot yet know how effective they will be in the long term.
2 - Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence: It's more than reasonable to hold the proponent's claims to an extremely high standard. A well known guideline / tool in critical thinking says: "Extraordinary claims, require extraordinary evidence". When we apply that tool to this situation, the burden of proof falls to the proponents of castration. It's up to them to prove - without much doubt at all - that:
- the negative aspects of these extreme measures are well communicated to potential patients and advocates,
- their long term efficacy is proven,
- the organizations supporting these extreme measures are beyond reproach
== Is the "Standard of Care" (SOC), published by WPATH above criticism or doubt?
An organization called WPATH is largely responsible for creating and publishing the SOC used to defend castration. In previous debates, when I've posted links to counter-arguments, I've sometimes been told that the links I've provided come from groups or issues who are advocating for a position. I would say that almost everyone involved in this debate is an advocate to some degree. Importantly, WPATH is largely an advocacy group. WPATH has an agenda.
Suing Over Medical Transition: The Case Against Considering Wpath as a Competent, Reasonable Body of Expert Opinion. - Genspect
Suing Over Medical Transition: The Case Against Considering Wpath as a Competent, Reasonable Body of Expert Opinion. - Genspect
== Is the Medical Community all in Agreement?
There is no doubt that if you search the internet, you can find many seemingly reputable organizations that support the castration option. But there are a growing number of reputable organizations that are questioning this extreme course of action. Here are a few:
One Size Does Not Fit All: In Support of Psychotherapy for Gender Dysphoria
An Epidemic of Unnecessary Treatment
The NHS Ends the "Gender-Affirmative Care Model" for Youth in England
https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-conte...ce-Services-for-Children-and-Young-People.pdf
== Is the Medical Community Beyond Reproach
I think that most doctors, nurses, and hospitals are well intended and qualified. But sadly the "industry" is largely driven by a strong profit motive, and the profiteers run hospitals, the doctors do not . A bestseller called "Bitter Pill", and videos related "Bitter Pill" can provide a good overview of rampant profiteering in the medical "industry". And make no mistake, providing care to transgender is big business. This article claims that the potential "market" for trans care is $200 BILLION dollars. Further, the average cost of transitioning is $150,000.
Trans-Tech Is A Budding Industry: So Why Is No One Investing In It?
Doctors, Drug Companies, And Others Who Profit From Transgenderism - CDM - Human Reporters • Not Machines
Bitter Pill: Why Medical Bills Are Killing Us
== Does Castration Save Lives?
This claim has become a sort of meme in these discussions. But is it true? The main "proof" for this claim is studies that follow youths before and after castration. The studies claim that incidence of suicidal thoughts go down after castration. That sounds good on the surface. But almost all major surgeries have strong, impermanent impacts on patients' mental health. These surgeries have been widespread for only a handful of years, so definitive understanding of the long term mental health benefits cannot yet be known.
Further, some of the widely cited studies used to support the claim that castration "saves lives" are now under suspicion:
https://accpjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jac5.1691
Researchers Found Puberty Blockers And Hormones Didn’t Improve Trans Kids’ Mental Health At Their Clinic. Then They Published A Study Claiming The Opposite. (Updated)
== Ecological Psychology, the lives of today's youth
Traditional science is quite powerful, no doubt! But one key approach used in most research is to slice and dice complex situations into pieces, isolate a few variables, and do tests on those isolated variables. Again, this approach has proven itself to be very powerful. But it has its limits.
A newer approach to doing science is called ecological psychology. The premise is that complex systems must be studied in their whole, including the environment in which the systems exist.
It's important to remember that all professional interventions for trans youths are based on the feelings that these youth experience. In general, when psychologists are helping people with feelings that cause distress, they consider environmental factors such as:
- the financial security and general health of the family
- artificial diets
- contaminated drinking water
- poor air quality
- social media influence, and amplified peer pressure
- post-truth academia
- the rise of and exposure to polarizing extremists at every end of every spectrum
- easy access to every form of pornography and fetishism
- a massive increase in information consumption
- the threat of destroying our life-sustaining environment
- an oligarchy that poisons many aspects of our lives, including widespread profiteering in the medical "industry"
We also know that puberty is an extremely confusing and distressing time for many young people.
We also know that the brains of youth are not fully developed until the age of 25 or so, and that all youths have the highest suicide rates:
Suicide rate highest among teens and young adults
The Teen Mental Illness Epidemic is International: The Anglosphere
Number of teens who ‘don’t enjoy life’ has doubled with social media
== Restating the claim of castration supporters:
To summarize, it seems to me that when you flesh out the claims made by proponents of castrating youths, you end up with:
We support the policy of castrating youths who feel as though they're in the wrong body, while acknowledging:
- The oft cited standard of care (SOC), is authored by WPATH, an advocacy group
- The medical industry is rife with profiteering
- Trans care is potentially a $200 BILLION business
- Many reputable health organizations are now questioning the efficacy of castration
- Castration is known to have many detrimental, long term health side effects
- The claim of "saving lives" has no long term proof
- Modern psychology understands that today's youth live an unprecedentedly complex, stressful, and propaganda swamped world
==
It seems to me that pro-castration advocates have not proved their case with extraordinarily good evidence.
