Do God the Father and God the Son have physical bodies?

[ἀλήθεια]

You're still not geting it. Who God calls, He qualifies. We are worthy in spite of our sins. Please reread the BoM scripture I posted.

I will review things at a much later hour.

 

[DeepShadow]

Are some sins wretched and other sins not wretched?

LOL! No, that's not it at all. Her problem was with CALLING herself a sinner. It's not something we beat ourselves up about, is all.

I don't know that I was trying to convince her that she's a sinner.

Well, then your questions were posed out of misunderstanding. If the others here thought you were being disingenuous, that's probably because they have a hard time believing you misunderstood.

I wanted her opinion on the matter. In fact, I'm more interested in what she has to say about this than what you try to say on her behalf.

I sympathize, but it appears she's bowed out of the conversation, and I can only speak from my years of knowing her. Unless she decides to correct me, it looks like I'm all you're going to get.

 

[Scott C.]

You cannot receive a blessing from God without deserving it for your scripture clearly states that you must do X to receive Y. It is a law and obedience is a law of LDS heaven. There are no blessings handed out without the recipient's obedience as a requirement for that blessing.

There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated. (Doctrine and Covenants 130:20-21)

The question of grace, works, obedience, blessings, what we merit, and what we don't merit is interesting and worthy of discussion. I would suggest we use a new thread for that discussion, however.

 

[Freelancer7]

'The Doctrine and Covenants (D&C) is a collection of separate modern day revelations, received mostly by Joseph Smith, and is accepted by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as scripture.'

Also Scott I personaly believe that Intelligent Creation itself is growing, learning and expanding. The Doctrine and the Covenants are old so the Holy Spirit in Modern Times could possibly be on earth in a physical Body, possibly the Father if in a physical body would need the Holy Spirit to be in a Physical body as well, that is, if on earth, well, in the physical dimension that we see with our own two eyes that is?!

 

[ayani]

Hi, Ayani.

Well, in a nutshell, it all begins when one hears and is converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ and has faith that Jesus Christ can and wishes to pay the price for his sins. The next step in for him to repent of those sins, be baptised by immersion for the remission of those sins by one holding the proper authority to do so, and receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands.

We believe that when we enter into a covenant relationship with our Savior at the time we are baptized, He promises us that if we will remain faithful to Him throughout our lives, doing our best to keep His commandments and repenting whenever we fall short, He will become our advocate with our Father in Heaven. His Atonement paid the price for our sins and absolves us of the guilt associated with those sins. Because we have been cleansed by His sacrifice, we can look forward to being reconciled with our Father in Heaven and living with Him eternally.

can a Christian of a non-LDS background also believe in Jesus and recieve salvation through grace, be baptized into His name, and live for Him, with the same validity as a member of the CoJCoLDS?

does being a member of the CoJCoLDS make a difference?

 

[Apex]

can a Christian of a non-LDS background also believe in Jesus and recieve salvation through grace, be baptized into His name, and live for Him, with the same validity as a member of the CoJCoLDS?

does being a member of the CoJCoLDS make a difference?

We believe that to be properly baptized one needs to be baptized by someone holding the priesthood. While we maintain that other churches and religions contain truths we do not believe they hold the priesthood.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

And yet we are still unworthy:

Mosiah 2:21-25
21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.
22 And behold, all that he requires of you is to keep his commandments; and he has promised you that if ye would keep his commandments ye should prosper in the land; and he never doth vary from that which he hath said; therefore, if ye do keep his commandments he doth bless you and prosper you.

23 And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him.

24 And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast?

25 And now I ask, can ye say aught of yourselves? I answer you, Nay. Ye cannot say that ye are even as much as the dust of the earth; yet ye were created of the dust of the earth; but behold, it belongeth to him who created you.


Can you tell me what this means to you since you believe that I don't understand it? Thank you.

ἀλήθεια

 

[ἀλήθεια]

The question of grace, works, obedience, blessings, what we merit, and what we don't merit is interesting and worthy of discussion. I would suggest we use a new thread for that discussion, however.

But you want to discuss Mosiah 2:21-25, don't you? Is that not about a person's obedience and worthiness?


ἀλήθεια

 

[ἀλήθεια]

When the Son of God appears again, we will “see him as he is” and we will be “like him”. We will see that he has form and that our form is in his image. We will also see that the Father has form and we and the Son are in the image of the Father.

Can you give me a verse that says our form is in His image?

Can you tell me when we lost that image and how that image will be restored?

Thank you for your time.

ἀλήθεια

 

[ayani]

We believe that to be properly baptized one needs to be baptized by someone holding the priesthood. While we maintain that other churches and religions contain truths we do not believe they hold the priesthood.

there's a lot that really causes me to doubt this belief. for one thing, we have numerous Christian bodies througout the world, many extremely ancient, some pre-dating the official split between Roman Catholicism and the Orthodox church, at least one even pre-dating the Arian controversy and the Counsel of Nicea.

that one church would be the Indian Orthodox Chritian community, founded by the ApostleThomas on a mission trip to India. the first converts were Cochin Jews. other early-formed church bodies include the Syrian Orthodox Church and Coptic / Egyptian Christians.

so why do none of these churches, one clearly founded by an apostle of Christ, some using Syrian-Aramaic as the language of liturgy, mention these teachings? why have none of these doctrines been found in the eariest writing associated with these churches? in the writings of the church fathers? in the Gospels? there's a completely silent trail across three continents and 2000 years until 1830's America, and i find that very implausible.

 

[roli]

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15: 50: "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

Most Christians seem to believe that we will be resurrected in heaven, as Jesus was resurrected. So, why does Paul say that "flesh and blood" cannot inherit the kingdom of God?

I'm not sure what you are saying here, "resurrected in heaven", ...when we die our bodies put off the old man,the flesh and put on the new immortal, glorified bodies.
Our physical bodies as we know it .
We must learn to read the scriptures in context, doing that in this instance we see
1Cr 15:44 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Scott ,you must read this chapter in whole and you'll will understand what Paul is talking about..."we are changed" is the essence of what he is saying here.

When we return with Christ we will rule and reign in glorified bodies

Jesus said "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

Prior to Jesus showing himself he was not yet glorified:
Jhn 20:17 — Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
What took place in heaven, in one day, at evening, Christ showed up again after ascending to the father, what took place in heaven ,well various things possibly , he offered himself to the father as our atonement and satisfied the demands of the law as the perfect sacrifice and I believe he was glorified and came back .

Jesus' prayer to the father prior to death:
Jhn 17:5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Whatever state Jesus was prior to coimg to earth, is what he was restored to in heaven after offering himself to the father.

Stephen saw Jesus on the right hand of the Father. Clearly, flesh and bone did inherit the kingdom of God, as evidenced by the resurrection of Jesus.

Well the same way in ascended will be the same way he returns in glory, but that flesh and bone was glorified and was not the same flesh and bone as he was in his former state, ...again something transpired in heaven after his death and we are'nt sure on what that actually was. It is up to the individual to interpret it as they choose.

So, what did Paul mean? Paul means that a mortal corruptible body will not inherit the kingdom of God. Only immortal and incorruptible bodies will inherit the kingdom of God, bodies that are immortal and incorruptible just like the body of flesh and bone that Jesus showed his disciples after the resurrection. His body was now perfect and of a nature that we don't fully understand, other than that it is "flesh and bone."

Was his appearance to man after his death for our purposes only, he was restored to his prior state in John 17:5

When Jesus told Peter that "flesh and blood" did not reveal the truth to him, He was saying that mortal man did not reveal the truth to Him, rather His Father in Heaven revealed the truth to Him. That does not change the fact that God the Father is physical, but not mortal, i.e., physical, but not corruptible.

Jesus clearly made the distinction that it was not flesh and blood that revealed it ,but God....indicating that God is not flesh and blood ,how can you not see that..it's so clear.

I would like to know if Christians here believe that they will be physically resurrected like Christ. Will their resurrected body be a physical body of flesh and bone as Jesus showed his disciples? In what way will it be the "spiritual" and "incorruptible" body described by Paul in 1 Cor 15? It's not clear to me what others believe in this regard. If your resurrected body will not be "flesh and bone", how do you reconcile that with the fact that Jesus was resurrected as "flesh and bone"

?
I personally believe that our bodies are raised as Paul describes it, in a physical form, yet glorified ,spiritual, immortal, the key word is,"immortal. It does not mean we will have physical appitites and carnal desires like ,sex, hunger, thirst,or having the needs our emotions crave for, but are transformed into his glorious image.
Do I understand or comprehend what that is exactly ...no!!!!, but only a picture
2Cr 3:18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.

So there is a change, although physically visible and of physical form we will literally put on the spiritual
1Cr 15:51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

 

[roli]

We believe that to be properly baptized one needs to be baptized by someone holding the priesthood. While we maintain that other churches and religions contain truths we do not believe they hold the priesthood.

Who does this priesthood consist of according to LDS?
Mormons only, or the 12 tribes of Israel

According to the word of God we are priests unto God.
1Pe 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
Rev 1:6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[Watchmen]

Who does this priesthood consist of according to LDS?
Mormons only, or the 12 tribes of Israel

According to the word of God we are priests unto God.
1Pe 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
Rev 1:6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Peter was speaking to the Church. As you know, we believe the rest of Christianity, while having truth, is not the Church (hence, the restoration was necessary).

 

[Scott C.]

But you want to discuss Mosiah 2:21-25, don't you? Is that not about a person's obedience and worthiness?


ἀλήθεια

SInce this thread is about the physical nature of God the Father and Jesus Christ, I'd rather discuss the concept of worthiness in a different thread.

 

[Scott C.]

Can you give me a verse that says our form is in His image?

Can you tell me when we lost that image and how that image will be restored?

Thank you for your time.

ἀλήθεια

The OP addresses being created in God's image. I don't believe we ever lost that image from a physical perspective.

 

[Katzpur]

can a Christian of a non-LDS background also believe in Jesus and recieve salvation through grace, be baptized into His name, and live for Him, with the same validity as a member of the CoJCoLDS?

does being a member of the CoJCoLDS make a difference?

We believe that the authority by which a baptism is performed is essential to its validity. This is not to say that we believe that a person who does as you have described will be condemned to an eternity in Hell or anything of that sort, because we don't. We do believe, however, that priesthood authority is the power God gives to mankind to act in His name. We don't believe that it is held by all believers, but by those who have been ordained by the laying on of hands by someone who already holds the authority.

 

[Katzpur]

so why do none of these churches, one clearly founded by an apostle of Christ, some using Syrian-Aramaic as the language of liturgy, mention these teachings? why have none of these doctrines been found in the eariest writing associated with these churches? in the writings of the church fathers? in the Gospels?

Actually, ayani, virtually all of our core doctrines do have ties to ancient Christianity. You could pick almost any LDS doctrine and I could provide evidence that it was believed by the Christians in Christ's time and in the years immediately following His death. If you don't believe me, try me.

there's a completely silent trail across three continents and 2000 years until 1830's America, and i find that very implausible.

And I find it very convincing. Jesus established His Church on a foundation of prophets and apostles and there is evidence that this is the organization He intended would remain in place until His second coming. For a time, new Apostles were called when one of the original twelve died, but eventually this stopped. They were all martyred and the authority they held was not passed on. Paul prophesied that this would happen. He spoke extensively of an apostasy and all indications are that it was to be extensive. He also spoke of a restoration. It would have been inconceivable that this could have happened anywhere in the world prior to when it did. I find it very implausible that most people can't see what is obvious to most Latter-day Saints.

 

[Katzpur]

The OP addresses being created in God's image. I don't believe we ever lost that image from a physical perspective.

Yeah, it would be really nice if we could actually discuss the OP. There's even material on this subject that we could be having a very interesting discussion on it.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

The OP addresses being created in God's image. I don't believe we ever lost that image from a physical perspective.

I don't believe that anyone can say man's physical body is what God meant when He said, "Let us make man in our own image." If you believe that holiness and other attributes refer to the image of God, why would you include physical attributes as being also in the image of God? And why do all the LDS teachings I've run across only talk about man being in the physical likeness of God?


mormon.org says the following:

In the New Testament, when the Resurrected Christ appeared to His Apostles, He told them, "handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have" (Luke 24:39). Later Stephen testified that he saw Jesus "standing on the right hand of God" (Acts 7:56).
Modern-day revelation confirms these teachings from the Bible. God the Father and His son Jesus Christ, appeared to Joseph Smith in the spring of 1820. Joseph revealed that the Father and the Son each have a "body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's" (D&C 130:22). God is our Heavenly Father, and we are created in his image.

I conclude that LDS are referring to man being made in the physical image of God and that, perhaps from other teachings, his spirit might also resemble Heavenly Father's Spirit in looks.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Jesus established His Church on a foundation of prophets and apostles and there is evidence that this is the organization He intended would remain in place until His second coming. For a time, new Apostles were called when one of the original twelve died, but eventually this stopped. They were all martyred and the authority they held was not passed on. Paul prophesied that this would happen. He spoke extensively of an apostasy and all indications are that it was to be extensive. He also spoke of a restoration. It would have been inconceivable that this could have happened anywhere in the world prior to when it did. I find it very implausible that most people can't see what is obvious to most Latter-day Saints.

The foundation of the church was laid in the beginning of the church. The walls and roof are not made of apostles.