Do Members of Jehovah's Witness Celebrate the US Independence Day?

[John53]

But we do apply these Scriptures! (Read Matthew 18:15-17, just a couple verses after the ones you mentioned.)

1 Corinthians 5 is after all else fails.

January 8, 1947 Awake!:

Excommunication is "altogether foreign to biblical teachings."
It's an unbiblical Roman Catholic teaching by which "you are looked upon with the blackest contempt... being cursed and damned with the Devil and his angels."
Its origins are pagan -- supersititious Greeks and the Druids!
It's "an instrument by which the clergy attained a combination of ecclesiastical power and secular tyranny that finds no parallel in history."

 

[siti]

I think you mean 5:11....in my understanding, a reviler is one who uses verbal abuse to disparage someone's character or reputation in a mean-spirited way, without due regard for the truthfulness of what is spoken.

Thanks Deeje - I did indeed mean 1 Cor 5:11 - I have corrected the typo now.

Anyway, would you say that suggesting someone has had immoral sexual relations when one has absolutely no evidence that this is true (which in my case - not that it is anyone else's business anyway but never mind that - it most certainly is not) falls into that category?

It’s obvious you never did have a strong relationship with Jehovah. What was it that took you out of the truth, a desire for immoral sex? That is usually what’s behind it.

And what about accusing someone of apostasy as Hockeycowboy does here:

On top of that, you admit to scoffing. Those are apostate behaviors.

I really don’t think anyone appreciates traitors. And it’s not just treason against some man-made country. It’s treason against Jehovah God!

So far all I have done is request the scriptural basis for believing that people who died thousands of years of ago will be resurrected with their memories restored. If there is a scriptural basis for this belief, all that is required is to cite the verse that states this. If not - why accuse me of apostasy? What am I standing against - God's word - Watchtower doctrine - or "private interpretations"?

 

[Deeje]

Read Deuteronomy 21:18–21. You can cherry pick the bible to justify all manner of evil deeds. Doesn't make it right.

What makes something "right"? Only what you agree with?

The Creator has reasons for what he has done in the culture of the times when he acted. God did not create the culture but adjusted his actions to what was the appropriate approach at the time.

In order to teach us the reasons why we should obey God, he set the human race free of his intervention and we can see in the annals of history where that led. Everything from sacrificing their children to false gods to some of the most chilling iniation rituals in primitive cultures. The wanton bloodshed and the diabolical weapons and methods of torture beggar belief. God's actions were strong at times, but actually quite mild in comparison to what humans were doing in those times.

When Jesus came, there was another adjustment in the way God dealt with humanity. He concentrated on a positive message for the future through Christ's teachings and actions.....but all the while giving a warning about his final confrontation with rebellious humans.

What do we see today? In the culture of our times, and what humans are doing in their complete disregard for human life, and respect for the planet, God has restrained himself ready for the final showdown. This is his earth, (in case humans are in any doubt) and he will do whatever it takes to show us why he is still the sovereign of the universe. If anyone wants to contest that, then the Bible says that their efforts will be futile. We can either stand with him or against him.....it's our choice. If people don't want what he is offering, then he will not force them.

 

[Deeje]

January 8, 1947 Awake!:

Excommunication is "altogether foreign to biblical teachings."
It's an unbiblical Roman Catholic teaching by which "you are looked upon with the blackest contempt... being cursed and damned with the Devil and his angels."
Its origins are pagan -- supersititious Greeks and the Druids!
It's "an instrument by which the clergy attained a combination of ecclesiastical power and secular tyranny that finds no parallel in history."

Seriously...1947? I wonder where you dredged that up from?

I wasn't even born then and I'm not young.

Even so, if you think our disfellowshipping policy is in any way akin to what is stated in that selected quote, then it just shows your complete inability to read what is given you in response to what is said about it. There is no way through that fog of not wanting to listen. You have your fingers in your ears and if that's what you want to believe then I can't do anything about that.

No point in even responding further.....

 

[John53]

Seriously...1947? I wonder where you dredged that up from?

Lol, your bible quotes are a tad older than that.

No point in even responding further.....

Lol again. Good idea, defending the indefensible isn't easy.

 

[John53]

What makes something "right"? Only what you agree with?

I don't think you understand what a discussion is.

 

[Deeje]

Thanks Deeje - I did indeed mean 1 Cor 5:11 - I have corrected the typo now.

Anyway, would you say that suggesting someone has had immoral sexual relations when one has absolutely no evidence that this is true (which in my case - not that it is anyone else's business anyway but never mind that - it most certainly is not) falls into that category?

What I see in many people is a need to point out what others are saying as if it was applied personally. He asked a question and said that this is a common reason why people leave or are expelled from our ranks. In all the years that disfellowshipping has been practiced, this has remained the number one cause. Today even more so as the world plunges further and further into immorality.

And what about accusing someone of apostasy as Hockeycowboy does here:

Again, he was stating something that we think is rather obvious....those who leave the brotherhood that they formerly considered 'family', usually have an attitude of belonging to an organisation rather than having a close and personal relationship with Jehovah. The difference being, that in any human organisation there will be imperfections of some members that will disappoint and tip others over the edge. To expect anything else is unrealistic....If God tolerates our imperfections, and gives his people ways to deal with them, then why can't we? Doesn't he forgive in a large way? Can't we? Are we so perfect that we can point fingers?

To leave in a huff because of what some immature individuals are doing or have done, to my way of thinking, is tantamount to going out and committing suicide because someone stood on your toe.

In my experience, mature ones leave things in Jehovah's hands and wait for him to act when it is the best time to do so.

So far all I have done is request the scriptural basis for believing that people who died thousands of years of ago will be resurrected with their memories restored. If there is a scriptural basis for this belief, all that is required is to cite the verse that states this. If not - why accuse me of apostasy? What am I standing against - God's word - Watchtower doctrine - or "private interpretations"?

As far as I can see, your questions have been answered. If they were not answered to your satisfaction, then what more can we offer you?

An apostate is one who knows the truth and works against it. To oppose Jehovah's people is to oppose Jehovah. You know that. It was always so. The history of Israel is a record of how God dealt with his imperfect people (those dedicated to his worship) and how they responded to his direction through the mature men he had put in charge. When people took things into their own hands and acted according to their own ideas, how often did it end well for them? I'm sure they felt fully justified in their actions.

It is so much better to let Jehovah deal with his own business in his own time and way. We believe that we are a collective of individuals, 'drawn', taught and led in a particular direction by God's spirit. If we don't believe that, then where else is there to go? Once you learn the truth, you can't 'unlearn' it. So where does that leave people like yourself? Have you found a better spiritual home? Have you found another truth that satisfies your spirituality? Or did you lose it all? Only you can answer that.

 

[Deeje]

Lol, your bible quotes are a tad older than that.

Oh....so that's the problem? You think we equate what we have published in times past as though it was scripture? We are very progressive and as time passes, our understanding increases and what was published decades ago is seen in the light of the times. We understand so much more now as it was foretold in Proverbs 4:18....

"But the path of the righteous is like the bright morning light
That grows brighter and brighter until full daylight."

Lol again. Good idea, defending the indefensible isn't easy.

If that is what you want to believe then go for it.

A discussion is a two way conversation with both sides listening and responding to what is said (preferably in a mature fashion). I don't find too much listening on your part, so tell me what's the point in continuing? I address your points in detail.....all I get from you is sniping.

 

[John53]

A discussion is a two way conversation with both sides listening and responding to what is said (preferably in a mature fashion).

Yes, your constant over use of emoticons is very mature... funny stuff.

I don't find too much listening on your part, so tell me what's the point in continuing? I address your points in detail.....all I get from you is sniping.

Disagreeing is not sniping, if someone not agreeing with you is a problem then I would suggest a debate forum is not the place to be.

 

[siti]

What I see in many people is a need to point out what others are saying as if it was applied personally. He asked a question and said that this is a common reason why people leave or are expelled from our ranks.

No Deeje - he asked a question about me - about why I am not a practicing JW any more and linked that question to JW standards of "immorality". You can twist it all you like, but he - and now you - should be thoroughly ashamed of your conduct (if not you presence) on this forum - if not, you are, frankly, no more Jehovah's Witnesses than I am - the only difference being I don't pretend to be any more.

To leave in a huff because of what some immature individuals are doing or have done

There you go again - what on earth does this comment have to do with anything if it is not a completely unfounded assumption about my reasons for not being a practicing JW any more? I did not leave anything in a huff - in fact I openly expressed my doubts to the elders - privately in my own home where they were - and are - still welcome (they know that very well). They were unable to answer my questions (they know that very well). However, they are civil and polite when we do happen to meet - and they kindly invite me to attend meetings again - and if I ever were to do so I know they would be welcoming and supportive. I did not leave in a huff and I have no reason to return with my tail between my legs either. The Watchtower and I do not see things eye to eye and I have explained that clearly to the elders and they were not able to help.

In the meantime, however, it has become apparent to me that even the WT today does not see eye to eye with the WT in the past years anyway. This is what you would call the "light getting brighter" - but many people my age have abandoned educational and career opportunities (I didn't mind you), declined to have families (I did have a family), spent years in jail for refusing alternatives to military service (I was not required to make that choice) ...etc. etc...

...all based on doctrinal "light" that was just not quite sufficiently "bright" at the time. And please don't tell me these decisions were not based on official WT teachings - you know - like the whole 1914 generation thing - the WT very clearly indicated these things and then when they changed their mind, suggested that no, it wasn't the WT teaching it was the private interpretations and expectations of individual witnesses that was off!

And that is precisely why I am asking @Hockeycowboy for the scriptural basis of his belief that people who died thousands of years ago will be resurrected with their memories restored.

There is no such indication in scripture, just as there is no indication in scripture that people who were alive and cognizant of the events happening in 1914 would see the end of this system - but the WT taught that - I was taught that by an elder in my home bible study - I taught that from the platform in the congregation - how wrong I was!

As far as I can see, your questions have been answered. If they were not answered to your satisfaction, then what more can we offer you?

Neither of you have answered the question at all - between you, you have not yet cited one verse of scripture that supports the unfounded assumption that people will be resurrected with their memories restored.

To oppose Jehovah's people is to oppose Jehovah.

No it is not. It is to oppose error. But in any case, I am not opposing Jehovah's people at all am I? How so? By asking for a scriptural basis for a statement about the resurrection - how is that opposition? I am not opposing anything - I am admitting how wrong I was to believe it in the first place.

 

[RedhorseWoman]

Was Jesus proud and judgmental when exposing the Pharisees as unholy hypocrites in his day? Was exposing their error something he enjoyed?...or was it something he had to do to free the lost sheep from their despair and give them hope?

The Hebrew expression "am ha-arets" (which the Pharisees applied to those they considered to be a lost cause) means “people of the earth.” These people were treated like dirt under the feet of the Pharisees, and the Sadducees had nothing to do with them, because they looked down on everyone.

I'm rather surprised that you have taken this tack as a way to defend the JW religion, since the JW religion is just about the most Pharisaical religion on the face of the earth.

EVERYTHING in the JW religion is controlled...what you are supposed to wear...the people with whom you should associate...what type of employment is acceptable...what books/magazines you should read...what TV shows or movies you should watch...what music you should listen to...and the list goes on.

Any who don't follow the rules are "marked" or considered to be "bad association" and are often shunted to the side, or, in the case of those who decide to leave, are shunned and considered to be "dead meat" that Jehovah will destroy at Armageddon.

Jesus associated with sinners, but JWs shun them.

 

[RedhorseWoman]

That’s just it...it is “reasonable” deduction.
Our JW Broadcasting for this month highlights that very idea, asking ourselves ‘how, what, when, where, and why’ when meditating on Biblical accounts.

It’s obvious you never did have a strong relationship with Jehovah. What was it that took you out of the truth, a desire for immoral sex? That is usually what’s behind it.

I'm sorry, but your post just absolutely cracked me up. Cravings for "immoral sex" seems to be the reason branded into the brains of JWs as to why anyone would possibly want to leave the JW organization.

Why don't you try considering that the majority of former JWs have left the JW organization for vastly different reasons. Many leave because, through their private Biblical research, they have discovered that many things the JWs teach are not true. Others leave because the religion no longer fulfills their spiritual needs. Others, like myself, leave because they can no longer stomach the hypocrisy, backbiting, lack of love, lies and general nastiness inherent in the group.

You really need to forget what your leaders have told you about "apostates" and learn the truth. Your leaders certainly won't tell you.

 

[RedhorseWoman]

Wow! Don’t JW’s have a reputation for disfellowshipping those practicing bad things?

LOL Yes, sometimes JWs disfellowship those who have sinned. They also frequently don't disfellowship those who have committed multiple serious sins, for instance, child molestation. A pedophile in my home congregation molested his natural children, was reported to the elders, and nothing was done. He later molested his stepdaughter and her male cousin, was reported to the elders, and nothing was done. He was never disfellowshipped while I was in that congregation, and nobody was even aware of what he was doing until years later when his stepdaughter was able to bring criminal charges against him and he went to prison.

Very often in the JW congregations the "punishment" depends on who you know and what cliques you are in. If, for instance, you are a member of an elder's family, the punishment, if it happens at all, will be a slap on the wrist.

Regarding your comment “there are JWs who own handguns with concealed carry permits and who brag that they would shoot and kill anyone who threatened them or their families“.... never heard that.
Assertions without references are just words without meaning.

Go to the Topix JW forum, and ask a JW poster, Florida Native, about his gun ownership. He sees absolutely NO problem with carrying a concealed weapon and has stated that he would use it. I, personally, was shocked when he came out and stated that. You can dismiss it if you wish, but that's what it is.

And this: “As an example, in my home congregation there was a ministerial servant/former pioneer minister who murdered an elderly woman while seeking money for his cocaine habit.”....
This should certainly be referenced in a news article. Can you provide it?

It was a long time ago, and the person in question served his time and has since died. Not sure if anything that old is still in a news article that could be referenced on the web at this point in time.

 

[Deeje]

I'm rather surprised that you have taken this tack as a way to defend the JW religion, since the JW religion is just about the most Pharisaical religion on the face of the earth.

EVERYTHING in the JW religion is controlled...what you are supposed to wear...the people with whom you should associate...what type of employment is acceptable...what books/magazines you should read...what TV shows or movies you should watch...what music you should listen to...and the list goes on.

Any who don't follow the rules are "marked" or considered to be "bad association" and are often shunted to the side, or, in the case of those who decide to leave, are shunned and considered to be "dead meat" that Jehovah will destroy at Armageddon.

Jesus associated with sinners, but JWs shun them.

Your comments are typical of those who have no idea where those "rules" come from or why they are implemented. What Witness would not know this? Living in a world controlled by the devil, requires having you wits about you. The warnings are all in the scriptures if you bother to read them and understand their modern day application.

Jesus associated with sinners to impart the Christian message to them. He didn't do it to enjoy their company unless they were responding to his teachings and cleaning up their lives. He could read hearts you know. He still does and those who seek to make excuses for why they abandon those standards will understand the foolishness of their actions.

Those who don't follow the rules were never JW's in the first place because we have no problem with them and appreciate the timely reminders about having one foot in the truth and the other on a banana skin.

At the end of the day....let's see who was following the right path.....Shall we?

 

[RedhorseWoman]

Well - let's see if @Hockeycowboy can manage to tone down the gratuitous ad hominen and answer the question truthfully - not holding my breath but you never know.

Incidentally, as you may have gathered from his comments, I was a JW a long time ago - but I would never have responded to a former believer or anyone else with what he just posted in response to me - even if I knew it to be true - but like he says - maybe my relationship with Jehovah was never strong enough to enable me to be so rude - and certainly not just because someone calls me on an unsubstantiated statement. Who knows? Maybe they're just made of different stuff these days.

Having posted on various forums where JWs have been present, I've noticed that the "desire for immorality and disgusting practices" reason is regularly thrown out as the explanation for why anyone would possibly want to leave the JW organization. I've pretty much gotten used to it.

 

[RedhorseWoman]

Your comments are typical of those who have no idea where those "rules" come from or why they are implemented. What Witness would not know this? Living in a world controlled by the devil, requires having you wits about you. The warnings are all in the scriptures if you bother to read them and understand their modern day application.

Jesus associated with sinners to impart the Christian message to them. He didn't do it to enjoy their company unless they were responding to his teachings and cleaning up their lives. He could read hearts you know. He still does and those who seek to make excuses for why they abandon those standards will understand the foolishness of their actions.

Those who don't follow the rules were never JW's in the first place because we have no problem with them and appreciate the timely reminders about having one foot in the truth and the other on a banana skin.

At the end of the day....let's see who was following the right path.....Shall we?

Sorry, Deeje, but those "rules" are imposed by men as a means of controlling JWs. Those "rules" are one of the markers for high-control religions. They make JWs dependent on the leaders for every single thing they do in their lives. You aren't allowed to think for yourself...you have to check "the literature" to find out what the Governing Body has to say on almost everything.

Care to tell me how forbidding brothers from growing a beard keeps them safe from "the Devil"? How about listening to classical music? Yes, this was one of the "rules" that was in place when I was still a JW. We weren't supposed to listen to rock music or anything else that was popular at the time, so I began enjoying listening to classical music...until, that is, the Society came out and declared that classical music was often based on "pagan" themes and was, therefore, inappropriate for "true Christians."

The majority of the rules imposed by the WTS are not and never have been in the scriptures. They are totally arbitrary and meant solely to keep JWs controlled and in submission.

 

[RedhorseWoman]

What makes something "right"? Only what you agree with?

The Creator has reasons for what he has done in the culture of the times when he acted. God did not create the culture but adjusted his actions to what was the appropriate approach at the time.

In order to teach us the reasons why we should obey God, he set the human race free of his intervention and we can see in the annals of history where that led. Everything from sacrificing their children to false gods to some of the most chilling iniation rituals in primitive cultures. The wanton bloodshed and the diabolical weapons and methods of torture beggar belief. God's actions were strong at times, but actually quite mild in comparison to what humans were doing in those times.

When Jesus came, there was another adjustment in the way God dealt with humanity. He concentrated on a positive message for the future through Christ's teachings and actions.....but all the while giving a warning about his final confrontation with rebellious humans.

What do we see today? In the culture of our times, and what humans are doing in their complete disregard for human life, and respect for the planet, God has restrained himself ready for the final showdown. This is his earth, (in case humans are in any doubt) and he will do whatever it takes to show us why he is still the sovereign of the universe. If anyone wants to contest that, then the Bible says that their efforts will be futile. We can either stand with him or against him.....it's our choice. If people don't want what he is offering, then he will not force them.

As we all know, JWs do not hesitate to sacrifice their children in order to worship the symbol of life, blood, rather than preserve that life, which Jesus pointed out was the most important thing. Do NOT try to put JWs on a pedestal that they do not deserve.

 

[John53]

Care to tell me how forbidding brothers from growing a beard keeps them safe from "the Devil"?

Interesting, I didn't know that and it rules me out of ever being a JW, I never shave because I have sensitive skin and the razor burn dries it out and irritates it. I await eagerly to see if you get an answer to your question.

 

[siti]

Care to tell me how forbidding brothers from growing a beard keeps them safe from "the Devil"?

Sorry that's wrong - it is discouraged - but I have personally known several brothers who had beards. It is not forbidden but they prefer brothers who represent the society in positions of responsibility not to have them and the vast majority willingly comply. I have no problem with that any more than I have a problem with religions that encourage men to have beards or not shave their forelocks - its a cultural thing and I respect their right to have cultural things. Nobody is stopping anyone else from growing whiskers or even suggesting that they should not.

And in all fairness - having picked on a couple of points the JW posters made and sidetracked the thread in the process - not celebrating Independence Day is a cultural thing too - as, indeed is celebrating it. If someone conscientiously declines to join in a national celebration that should be respected too. The US is not Fascist state as far as I remember. Nobody should be compelled to perform outward expressions of nationalistic patriotism - that is very dangerous ground for a country to tread.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Care to tell me how forbidding brothers from growing a beard keeps them safe from "the Devil"?

You tell us, since it’s not true.

I have several close friends who are JW’s — two of them, elders — who have beards.

Your lies just destroyed your credibility.

How about listening to classical music? Yes, this was one of the "rules" that was in place when I was still a JW. We weren't supposed to listen to rock music or anything else that was popular at the time, so I began enjoying listening to classical music...until, that is, the Society came out and declared that classical music was often based on "pagan" themes and was, therefore, inappropriate for "true Christians."

I found this:
“There is a wide range of classical music, as well as folk and some modern music, that has a good melodic line, clean lyrics, and does not express a philosophy contrary to Bible principles. The key is to find and enjoy music that will not wrongly influence our thinking, music that is ‘righteous, chaste, well spoken of, virtuous, and praiseworthy.’—Philippians 4:8.”
(Excerpt from https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1989408?q=classical+music&p=par)

“A wide range of classical music” is fine, it said.

So....another lie.

As with almost anything in this world, some is good and some is bad....care should be taken. Rarely is anything non-spiritistic in the JW organization totally outright restricted.

Do you enjoy spreading lies? You should read John 8:44.

The majority of the rules imposed by the WTS are not and never have been in the scriptures. They are totally arbitrary and meant solely to keep JWs controlled and in submission.

Lol.

What rules aren’t in the Scriptures? Avoiding Fornication? It’s in there. Avoiding the Consumption of blood? It’s in there, too.

Now, the principles set forth are not rules; but they, too, are always based on the Scriptures, and are guidelines, not hard set rules.

You said, “....when I was still a JW.”

Oh, this explains the bias and the lies.
What made you become a traitor to Jehovah? Or were you even dedicated?