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Do Morals Come From God?

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
God does not do the trick nicely at all, i.m.o. Killing a man because he made a graven image would be unethical, as is the militaristic conquest of other peoples' lands, and no amount of other-worldly power could make it otherwise. Similarly, there's nothing profoundly ethical about not doing work on a particular day of the week--even if an almighty power orders it.

Here's a simple outline of how morality can be accounted for through a naturalistic worldview: By nature, and by definition, we want to be happy and avoid pain and suffering (people with normal brains, that is). Ethics is just the quest to establish guidelines of behavior that will promote happiness and mitigate suffering for everyone. It is not necessarily an easy task, given how complicated happiness and suffering have turned out to be via the study of such subjects as psychology, anthropology, economics, political science, all medicine and the natural sciences and especially history. (Despite popular misconceptions, doing lots of drugs and hoarding money and backstabbing will likely make you less happy, not more.) But it is possible in principle to establish things as objectively more or less ethical (or neither) insofar as they objectively make us more or less happy. And I think that there are a lot of things which we know are unethical and which *seem* at first glance to be advantageous to one's happiness; and there are similarly many things that are ethical which *seem* to cause pain and suffering. But I suspect that in all of these cases, fully accounting for all the likely consequences / realistic constraints shows that those things which we think of as unethical will make us, on the whole, less happy. And in those cases where our biological or cultural intuitions about ethics cannot be resolved with the best interests of human happiness--for example, every culture reviles incest, but what about a special case where the couple is infertile? --human happiness ought to take precedent, and the old intuition rejected as a misguided taboo.

And it is possible, through education and thoughtful reflection, to derive greater happiness from the happiness of those around you. That's a desirable situation for everyone: your happiness makes me happier, and my happiness makes you happier. Seeking out such positive-feedback loops with others is both rational and enjoyable. Seeking positive expressions (e.g. team sports) for some of our fundamental negative impulses (tribalism) is also rational and enjoyable.

Of course, there are people who don't derive any satisfaction from the happiness of those around them, and don't feel pain when they inflict it on others. We call them psychopaths. Their brains are abnormal, and why Heaven would create them without the mental faculties for compassion and then command them to have compassion is for the theologian to explain. For the scientist and the ethicist, it is enough to note that such people exist, and that they are not "evil" (at least in the naive sense of the word). Although the pious throughout the centuries righteously took revenge on such people, today we think it enough protect them from themselves and others.

And of course, there are situations where (virtually) everyone will resort to violence, a mob mentality, stealing, etc. Those tend to be situations where resources are scarce or the sense of fairness of the masses has been outraged. What we would like to do, then, is avoid such situations by doing our best to provide everyone with basic "human rights".

Okay then. You've taken the "there aren't really any objective morals at all" line, which is basically my point. Either there are real moral truths (which require a god as their basis) or there aren't any (and the question of the existence of a god is still open).
 

Imagist

Worshipper of Athe.
Okay then. You've taken the "there aren't really any objective morals at all" line, which is basically my point. Either there are real moral truths (which require a god as their basis) or there aren't any (and the question of the existence of a god is still open).

I believe that there are real moral truths. I don't believe that there is a god. Please explain to me how my two beliefs contradict one another.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
I believe that there are real moral truths. I don't believe that there is a god. Please explain to me how my two beliefs contradict one another.

Already done, but I'll give you the Coles Notes version. If I see you using a tool and say "you're using it wrong", I might mean two things. I might mean that you're using it for the correct purpose but not in an optimal way. Or I might mean that you're using the tool for a purpose for which it wasn't designed. Either way, the notion of normativity involves the concept of proper function.

Similarly, when I say "X is wrong" where X is some behavior, I might be saying that you're living your life for the right purposes but you're doing it less optimally than is possible. This is a matter of mere prudence. On the other hand, I might be saying that you're living your life in a way for which it wasn't designed. That is, there's a purpose for which human life is designed, and I'm saying that your actions run contrary to that purpose. The proper use/function of human life is Y, but you're doing X.

Basically, I'm arguing that atheists cannot account for this sense of proper functioning or of proper purposes. They can argue for function and purpose but not PROPER function or purpose. But to have anything like a normative standard (such as ethics implies), you need something like proper function or purpose.
 

Imagist

Worshipper of Athe.
Already done, but I'll give you the Coles Notes version. If I see you using a tool and say "you're using it wrong", I might mean two things. I might mean that you're using it for the correct purpose but not in an optimal way. Or I might mean that you're using the tool for a purpose for which it wasn't designed. Either way, the notion of normativity involves the concept of proper function.

What you mean by "wrong" in this case is "incorrectly". "Incorrectly" is entirely different from "immorally" or "unethically".

Similarly, when I say "X is wrong" where X is some behavior, I might be saying that you're living your life for the right purposes but you're doing it less optimally than is possible. This is a matter of mere prudence. On the other hand, I might be saying that you're living your life in a way for which it wasn't designed. That is, there's a purpose for which human life is designed, and I'm saying that your actions run contrary to that purpose. The proper use/function of human life is Y, but you're doing X.

Basically, I'm arguing that atheists cannot account for this sense of proper functioning or of proper purposes. They can argue for function and purpose but not PROPER function or purpose. But to have anything like a normative standard (such as ethics implies), you need something like proper function or purpose.

Proper function and proper purpose have nothing to do with ethics. That which functions properly does not necessarily function ethically, and that which achieves a proper purpose does not necessarily achieve an ethical purpose.

What your argument amounts to is a 1984-esque attempt to redefine the meanings of words so as to place in your opponents' mouths your own beliefs. Just as in 1984, newspeak attempted to redefine the language to prevent any negative reference to Big Brother, you are attempting to redefine wrong, ethical, and moral to presuppose a designer or creator. As such, I must insist that you use the standard definitions of these terms:

wrong - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
moral - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
ethical - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

Also see:
Ethical egoism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Evolutionary Ethics [Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy]
for examples of how ethics can be developed in a way that is clearly separate from any kind of divinity (note that this is not an endorsement of either ethical theory).
 

rojse

RF Addict
For those that assert that morals do come from god, three questions:

1. Where do atheists come into this argument?
2. How does god force, for want of a better word, people to make moral decisions?
3. What about immoral decisions?
 

mohammed_beiruti

Active Member
You sort of missed the point with the last post.

Anyway, the perfect car would be one that was self-automated and self-guiding, and wouldn't be able to crash at all.

I didn't missed the point .

Driver controls the car, not vice virsa, the car is a favor from god to help you pass through the right path.

You have a Heart, you decide yor way.

personally I'd like the staright one :rolleyes:
 
Okay then. You've taken the "there aren't really any objective morals at all" line, which is basically my point. Either there are real moral truths (which require a god as their basis) or there aren't any (and the question of the existence of a god is still open).
No, I'm saying there are objective moral truths that follow rationally from a meaningful definition of "morality".
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
You have a Heart, you decide yor way.

personally I'd like the staright one
rolleyes.gif

I much prefer the scenic route. :jiggy:

wa:do
 

Rolling_Stone

Well-Known Member
Oh, that's just priceless. You couldn't have picked a better personal attack. For your information, I spent about the first 15 years of my life as a devout Christian, the next two as an unsure theist, and up until recently as an agnostic. I missed fewer than one Sunday church service per year up until about three months ago. I used to read three chapters of the bible every day and in this manner completed the bible from cover to cover more than five times. As for other holy books, I have also read the Bhagavad Gita and about half the Koran. Since I began to have some doubts about Christianity at a young age, I spent years struggling with my beliefs and trying to prove to myself that there was a god. As a result, I have read thousands of pages of material that attempts to prove or disprove the existence of god, and have researched the beliefs of a wide variety of religions including (but not limited to) Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Taoism. I have extensively read on related topics such as ethics, evolution, psychology, ancient history, and sociology in order to gain a better understanding of the implications of religion. I am confident that I have "looked into" religion more than you have "looked into" atheism, and I have probably even "looked into" religion more than you have.

Oh, and that's only the "looking into" that I did actively. Since my father is a professor of history of religions, I grew up discussing religion with him. While he was working on his Ph.D. my family lived in Israel for a year, where I experienced Judaism, and, to a lesser extent, Islam, firsthand (granted, I was a bit young to appreciate this fully). I have also taken ethics, history, and psychology classes in college.

You should look into my background before assuming that I have not looked into religion. You wouldn't sound so foolish.
Doesn't mean a thing. Most people who go to church know nothing more than what they're told and don't bother to delve deep.
 

Rolling_Stone

Well-Known Member
Oh, that's just priceless. You couldn't have picked a better personal attack. For your information, I spent about the first 15 years of my life as a devout Christian, the next two as an unsure theist, and up until recently as an agnostic. I missed fewer than one Sunday church service per year up until about three months ago. I used to read three chapters of the bible every day and in this manner completed the bible from cover to cover more than five times. As for other holy books, I have also read the Bhagavad Gita and about half the Koran. Since I began to have some doubts about Christianity at a young age, I spent years struggling with my beliefs and trying to prove to myself that there was a god. As a result, I have read thousands of pages of material that attempts to prove or disprove the existence of god, and have researched the beliefs of a wide variety of religions including (but not limited to) Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Taoism. I have extensively read on related topics such as ethics, evolution, psychology, ancient history, and sociology in order to gain a better understanding of the implications of religion. I am confident that I have "looked into" religion more than you have "looked into" atheism, and I have probably even "looked into" religion more than you have.

Oh, and that's only the "looking into" that I did actively. Since my father is a professor of history of religions, I grew up discussing religion with him. While he was working on his Ph.D. my family lived in Israel for a year, where I experienced Judaism, and, to a lesser extent, Islam, firsthand (granted, I was a bit young to appreciate this fully). I have also taken ethics, history, and psychology classes in college.

You should look into my background before assuming that I have not looked into religion. You wouldn't sound so foolish.
I'm going to go a bit further than my last post.

When you try to cast a shadow on religion by saying there are as many religious people in prison as there are non-religious, you should recall “there are lies, damned lies and statistics.” Actually, the percentage of religious people in prison is slightly higher than non-religious people—at least in the U.S.—but what happens when you look at the per capita? I'm not sure, but if even 60% of the people in prison and 80% in the nation are religious, what does that tell you? But let's assume that the numbers reflect the population or even reflected poorly on religion. Why would this be?

Off hand, I can think of two reasons: first, even the devil wants to look like an angel; second, if you know anything at all about Christianity, you know (or should know) that a man is as he thinks in his heart. And let's face it: we live in a very secular, very materialistic society in which the measure of success is anything but the Christian ideal. It would therefore be astonishing

As I explained somewhere else: those who “have religion” are no better or worse than those who do not. It is what one believes at the unconscious level rather than what one knows or thinks he knows at the intellectual level that determines conduct and dominates personal performances. Purely factual knowledge or mere belief exerts very little influence upon the average man unless they become emotionally activated. Men believe there is such thing as morality because it is written upon his heart. They thirst to be like God. This is so apparent men have given it the name “general revelation.” (The Apostle Paul knew this and if you were really a Christian, so should you.) People disbelieve because they want to be a law unto themselves: they want to be God as they believe God ought to be. But reason based on likes, dislikes and acculturation is their god, but it is this kind of reason that corrupts the heart of the believer and disbeliever alike. Anything can be rationalized and taken to heart—from the slaughter of millions in the name of an atheistic or secular cause to the slaughter of millions in the name of a loving God.

When you delve deep into religion, and by that I don't mean the kind of stuff written by popular preachers, you find a whole different world than what most religious people grow up in. This led to doubts. I understand that. I've been there. It takes practice to find meaning behind the ideas--to look beyond the ideas.

But this thread is about morality. All religions point to a good beyond the self. The non-religious have nothing but the self to point to the good. Unfortunately, even brilliant religionists like Robert Morey let the self get so wrapped up in the words and ideas they lose sight of the source of good: they are practical atheists.
 

rojse

RF Addict
For those that assert that morals do come from god, three questions:

1. Where do atheists come into this argument?
2. How does god force, for want of a better word, people to make moral decisions?
3. What about immoral decisions?

I want this answered, and I have not seen a reply. You would think that these questions would be important for this thread.
 
I'd like to add to rosje's questions the following items for consideration, for anyone who doesn't think morality can be accounted for without appealing to divine authority:

- Psychopathy - the psychological temperament associated with people who see nothing wrong with murder, rape, etc., is strongly correlated with physical defects of the brain ( Sabbatini, RME: The Psychopath's Brain. Tormented Souls, Diseased Brains )

- The ethics that cross all human cultures are ones such as disgust of incest, which has obvious evolutionary/genetic advantages

- Many social mammals, especially chimps and our other close cousins, exhibit a sense of fairness, justice, loyalty, etc. that we associate with ethical behavior (e.g. one chimp will risk its life to save another drowning chimp)

- Recent studies on such brain structures as mirror neurons indicate that we tend to experience things that we infer other people to be having
 
It's worth noting that one could be a theist without believing that morals come from God. Or, one could be a theist, believe morals come from God, but believe that they have to be pieced together through observing the world and using reason, just as the laws of physics have to be.
 
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