Do Morals Come From God?

[Storm]

Originally Posted by rojse
For those that assert that morals do come from god, three questions:

1. Where do atheists come into this argument?
2. How does god force, for want of a better word, people to make moral decisions?
3. What about immoral decisions?

I want this answered, and I have not seen a reply. You would think that these questions would be important for this thread.

Well, I rather doubt mine is the perspective your looking for, which is why I didn't respond in the first place. Still, since I don't see any other takers.....

1) Atheists, like all of us, engage in the search for morality, and thus further God's efforts in the same.

2) It doesn't.

3) What about them?

 

[rojse]

For those that assert that morals do come from god, three questions:

1. Where do atheists come into this argument?

Well, I rather doubt mine is the perspective your looking for, which is why I didn't respond in the first place. Still, since I don't see any other takers.....

1) Atheists, like all of us, engage in the search for morality, and thus further God's efforts in the same.

2. How does god force, for want of a better word, people to make moral decisions?

2) It doesn't.

3. What about immoral decisions?

3) What about them?

Thanks for the response, Storm. Frubals. I am always interested in seeing your reply, because you do have an interesting perspective on things.

I asked those three questions because I thought that if people were going to claim that morals come from God, they would be able to answer at least one of those questions.

Sigh...

 

[little_monkey]

I want this answered, and I have not seen a reply. You would think that these questions would be important for this thread.
1. Where do atheists come into this argument?
2. How does god force, for want of a better word, people to make moral decisions?
3. What about immoral decisions?

Sorry, if I didn't read all 11 pages. Been a member for a few weeks now.

But here's a shot.

1. As far as I'm concerned morals are part of a greater concept, which is about rules that we need to abide to, in order to live in a given society. These rules have a history, whereby they have been tested on trial basis and have been filtered -- meaning the bad/ineffective rules have been discarded. What's left -- today's rules -- are those that have proven to ensure that our society functions more or less smoothly. So, notice that morality, being a part of these rules, is also a work in progress.

2. As an atheist, your question is badly constructed, since in my thinking, there is no God. What motivates me? Basically, in every living situation I have a choice, either abide by the rules -- that is, the present laws, moral practices, family values, etc. or not abide by them, realizing that there are consequences to my action. Also, I have the choice that if I feel that a particular existing rule is unfair, unjust, out of time, etc, that I can actively seek to change the law, the practice or people's attitude on that matter.

3. Immoral decisions? such as what?? If it is against the laws, that will take care of itself since there is a system in place to punish those who violate them. If it is a private matter, then it is up to me to see what are the consequences and if I'm prepared to face those.

 

[rojse]

Sorry, if I didn't read all 11 pages. Been a member for a few weeks now.

But here's a shot.

1. As far as I'm concerned morals are part of a greater concept, which is about rules that we need to abide to, in order to live in a given society. These rules have a history, whereby they have been tested on trial basis and have been filtered -- meaning the bad/ineffective rules have been discarded. What's left -- today's rules -- are those that have proven to ensure that our society functions more or less smoothly. So, notice that morality, being a part of these rules, is also a work in progress.

2. As an atheist, your question is badly constructed, since in my thinking, there is no God. What motivates me? Basically, in every living situation I have a choice, either abide by the rules -- that is, the present laws, moral practices, family values, etc. or not abide by them, realizing that there are consequences to my action. Also, I have the choice that if I feel that a particular existing rule is unfair, unjust, out of time, etc, that I can actively seek to change the law, the practice or people's attitude on that matter.

3. Immoral decisions? such as what?? If it is against the laws, that will take care of itself since there is a system in place to punish those who violate them. If it is a private matter, then it is up to me to see what are the consequences and if I'm prepared to face those.

Thanks for this. Frubals.

Q1 - How does the changing morality of our times fit in with this statement? In the past, the rights of women and black people, are good examples. Gay rights is a current example.

Q2 - this is not badly construed. The three questions are directed at theists who believe that God gives us morals. A debate on whether God exists or not is not helpful in answering the question of how God makes us do moral acts, and does not get the question answered. I can find plenty of different threads, all with the slight variant on "Does god exist or not?" I don't need to turn this thread into the same sort of thing.

Q3 - although legislature is a good start for a morality debate, what about when we disagree with the legislation?

 

[little_monkey]

Thanks for this. Frubals.

Q1 - How does the changing morality of our times fit in with this statement? In the past, the rights of women and black people, are good examples. Gay rights is a current example.

Q2 - this is not badly construed. The three questions are directed at theists who believe that God gives us morals. A debate on whether God exists or not is not helpful in answering the question of how God makes us do moral acts, and does not get the question answered. I can find plenty of different threads, all with the slight variant on "Does god exist or not?" I don't need to turn this thread into the same sort of thing.

Q3 - although legislature is a good start for a morality debate, what about when we disagree with the legislation?

1. This has to do with one's actions, which can take place in private life, or in public, notably the political arena. Perhaps, you had other things in mind with your question. Please elaborate.

2. Sorry, about bringing the God thing into this question. I wasn't sure what it meant. I didn't mean to offend anyone, just trying to state my position as clearly as possible.

3. It becomes a power struggle. Hopefully, the debate should be peaceful and civil. No doubt that each side of the issue will try to elect those who support their views. Society will bear the brunt of that confrontation, one way or another, and usually some grand event will decide. Taking slavery as a point in question, it was not until the early 19th century that a movement in England started to abolish slavery. That idea snowballed across Europe before it landed in the US, where stiff opposition was met. It took sadly a civil war to get the US on board. Hopefully, this will not be the case for our present hot-button issues.

 

[Storm]

Thanks for the response, Storm. Frubals. I am always interested in seeing your reply, because you do have an interesting perspective on things.

Why, thank you!

I asked those three questions because I thought that if people were going to claim that morals come from God, they would be able to answer at least one of those questions.

Sigh...

:hug:

 

[maro]

Basically, I'm arguing that atheists cannot account for this sense of proper functioning or of proper purposes.

not only proper purpose and proper functioning ,but also Justice , which makes acting morally meaningful and purposeful by itself...If we are not living in a just world...if no one will be held accountable for his acts in an afterlife..If the murderer can avoid the punishment if he was intelligent enough..if one country can crush the other if it was powerful enough...what is the point of acting morally if morality is going to conflict with some of my Earthly interests ?..
if this life is only the point..with no higher purpose..no justice.. and no set rules..why would i give up one of my earthly joys for the sake of being moral ?..if i am only few years away from death ,and i will remain dead forever , why would i bother thinking about morality ?

 

[BucephalusBB]

.....why would i bother thinking about morality ?

Because morality always brings advantages. Or better, the opposite brings disadvantages.

 

[maro]

Because morality always brings advantages. Or better, the opposite brings disadvantages.

what if cheating in the exam will cause me to get A instead of C ? why wouldn't i do it ?
What if invading another country will tighten my fist over the sources of Energy , Why wouldn't i go for it ?
What if i am in a situation where Morlity Versus Interest ? why would i give up my probable interest if i am certain that i am strong/intelligent enough to avoid the punishment ?

 

[The Voice of Reason]

..if i am only few years away from death ,and i will remain dead forever , why would i bother thinking about morality ?

Why indeed?

Why not just strap some explosives to yourself and just walk into a room full of people that you don't care for and wipe them out as you go?

What? You say that your belief in God (or Allah) would never allow that?

... and yet, people do that very thing - almost daily - in the name of the very God that you worship.

Quite the conundrum, isn't it?

 

[BucephalusBB]

what if cheating in the exam will cause me to get A instead of C ? why wouldn't i do it ?

Because if they get caught, they will receive an F instead.

What if invading another country will tighten my fist over the sources of Energy , Why wouldn't i go for it ?

Because other countries will get in trouble over that. If you invade the country, you will loose support of those other countries and thus your own people.

What if i am in a situation where Morlity Versus Interest ? why would i give up my probable interest if i am certain that i am strong/intelligent enough to avoid the punishment ?

You wouldn't. The reason why people do cheat at exams and the reason countries do invade other countries.

 

[maro]

... and yet, people do that very thing - almost daily - in the name of the very God that you worship.

people will always feel the need to sugarcoat their Bigotry , ignorance and greed with sweet Mottos..Be it God..Be it Spreading democracy...Be it anything..

Back to the initial argument which you haven't answered yet..IF this Earthly life is the point..Why would i give up one of my interests in it for the sake of being moral ?

 

[The Voice of Reason]

people will always feel the need to sugarcoat their Bigotry , ignorance and greed with sweet Mottos..Be it God..Be it Spreading democracy...Be it anything..

That has to be the most transparent "blow off" of a tough question that I have ever seen.

I gave you a concrete example of believers that have such twisted morals that they actually commit murder on a large scale IN THE NAME OF YOUR GOD, and you act as if it is no big deal.

At the very least, take the time to address that point, or concede that God (or the belief that you have in Him) has absolutely no impact on the formation of morals.

Back to the initial argument which you haven't answered yet..IF this Earthly life is the point..Why would i give up one of my interests in it for the sake of being moral ?

Let's use the "cheating on the test" scenario.

An immature person cheats on a test, believing that the better grade will make them appear smarter than they are. A mature person understands that the reason for taking the class in the first place is to gain knowledge - not for the sake of the grade.

Basically, a person is only cheating themselves when they choose to act in such a manner.

 

[maro]

What if i am in a situation where Morlity Versus Interest ? why would i give up my probable interest if i am certain that i am strong/intelligent enough to avoid the punishment ?

You wouldn't. The reason why people do cheat at exams and the reason countries do invade other countries.

So, without the concept of "divine justice" that will be eventually achieved in an afterlife..without the concept of piety..and that we are being watched and will be held accountable for all our choices in this life..we turn to be living in a world that doesn't know but the language of interests...and whenever our interests conflict with the morality we claim..we will immediately forget about the moral mottos..and reveal our ugly faces...Right ?

i was once wondering why torturing doesn't usually occur as individual cases , but as an agreed upon policy by quite a large number of individuals ,untill i read that :

It was long thought that "good" people would not torture and only "bad" ones would, under normal circumstances. Research over the past 50 years suggests a disquieting alternative view, that under the right circumstances and with the appropriate encouragement and setting, most people can be encouraged to actively torture others Psychology of torture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[BucephalusBB]

....that will be eventually achieved in an afterlife.. .... and will be held accountable for all our choices in this life..

Here lies our differences. I am held accountable for all my choices. But not in an afterlife, now. Like the examples I gave you, every move of mine generates other peoples moves. that's where you eventually form your morals from. It's not strange that one specie forms a set of rules. Neither is it strange that some morals differ in different regions.

 

[painted wolf]

I find the idea that people 'behave' not because it is the right way to live, but because they are afraid of being spanked in the after life a little sad.

I live a good life not out of fear of punnishment or desire for reward, but because that is the right way to live. It is simply better for myself and everyone else if I am kind and respectful rather than cruel and callous.

wa:do

 

[ChristineES]

I find the idea that people 'behave' not because it is the right way to live, but because they are afraid of being spanked in the after life a little sad.

I live a good life not out of fear of punishment or desire for reward, but because that is the right way to live. It is simply better for myself and everyone else if I am kind and respectful rather than cruel and callous.

wa:do

That may be true of some people, but not most of the people I have known. I think some people don't like the idea of hurting another directly or indirectly by stealing from them, sleeping with their spouse, and so on. I don't refrain from committing crimes because of fear of punishment, but because I don't like the idea of harming someone (if one of my children were in danger I would do anything to stop that person but that is a parent's instinct).

 

[painted wolf]

exactly... that is why the idea of needing morality to be supernatural seems odd to me.
Most people would be good without the carrots or sticks... Those that are bad are that way regardless of them.

wa:do

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

It's not strange that one specie forms a set of rules. Neither is it strange that some morals differ in different regions.

May i give an example

When the People of prophet Lot (PBUH) were doing homosexuality, they were then forming a set of rules to live with, and they had no problem of doing homosexuality.

Qura'n Surah 25:40,43,44

[40] And the (Unbelievers) must indeed have passed by the town on which was rained a shower of evil: did they not then see it (with their own eyes)? But they fear not the Resurrection.

(Allah teach us what is Good for us!)

[43] Seest thou such a one as taketh for his god his own passion (or impulse)? Couldst thou be a disposer of affairs for him?


[44] Or thinkest thou that most of them listen or understand? They are only like cattle; nay, they are worse astray in Path.

 

[BucephalusBB]

May i give an example

When the People of prophet Lot (PBUH) were doing homosexuality, they were then forming a set of rules to live with, and they had no problem of doing homosexuality.



...and some bla bla to me..

Exactly what I mean, It doesn't matter wich consequences you get, the ones in real life or the ones religion made for you, but all morals are based upon consequences.