Do Muslims want to Assimilate?

[LuisDantas]

You are right about the static culture, which is why I laugh at liberals and securalists who point to parts of Europe some kind of utopia. On the other hand, your ignorance and naivete are as dangerous as Neville Chamberlain's.

That is an interesting comparison. Despite your disrespectful words, it is also one I don't really mind.

 

[LuisDantas]

Luis said:

I think in these discussions we need to be aware of the key issues and be precise when discussing them. So I take your last sentence from above and respond: We ARE NOT discussing dismissing people, we ARE talking about criticizing views, not dismissing them.

That is fair and proper. But also a major, permanent challenge. Witness how difficult it is not to dismiss political views that theorically have the support of 10% or more of the population.

It seems to me that we must be sober and realistic in accepting that nationally there will be many, many people dismissing the views (even if only becasuse they can't understand them at all) and also the people (because it takes effort and love to not dismiss people).

The good news is that it is not a change for the worse. That has always been the case. Creating the means for effective mutual understanding is the key for improving the perspectives.

Again, language. "those we judge" is spin. How about "those whose ideas we criticize"

The same thing, at least to me.

I envision a system in which all immigrants must pass an exam focused on science, critical thinking, and comparative religions.

No, no, no. There is no particular benefit in accepting only immigrants that do not have much to learn from us. It is necessary to intentionally accept at least a significant percentage that fails in some or all of those criteria.

I'd also like to add those topics to high school graduation exams. Education and shining sunlight into dark corners!

That I fully support.

The reason I bring this up is because my guess is that many religious folks would howl if such a practice became law. And how amazing is it that their historical howling is so effective that they're really having measurable, negative impact on the quality of our education systems?

In hindsight, it is somewhat predictable, if still impressive. There are some very significant pressures at work here. Most people would rather avoid dealing with certain matters if given the choice. But we probably do not have the choice.

 

[icehorse]

ice said:

I envision a system in which all immigrants must pass an exam focused on science, critical thinking, and comparative religions.

Luis said:

No, no, no. There is no particular benefit in accepting only immigrants that do not have much to learn from us. It is necessary to intentionally accept at least a significant percentage that fails in some or all of those criteria.

Why?

 

[GoodbyeDave]

There is no particular benefit in accepting only immigrants that do not have much to learn from us. It is necessary to intentionally accept at least a significant percentage that fails in some or all of those criteria.

Benefit to whom? To the immigrants? But then who placed my country under an obligation to act as a reformatory for bigots, let alone murders? And why is it necessary?

 

[Agondonter]

That is an interesting comparison. Despite your disrespectful words, it is also one I don't really mind.

Honesty, in today's culture, is often dismissed as "intolerance," "disrespectful," "hateful," "prejudice," or some kind of "phobia"; so much so that such accusations are meaningless and in poor taste in the real world. In this case, however, it is true that I have no respect for your dangerously naive ideas.

Many believe that Chamberlain's attempts to appease Hitler (one of Islam's heros) led to the unnecessary deaths of hundreds of thousands. In the same way, it is dangerous and naive to imagine that Islam, which was bent on world domination from its very inception, can be appeased.

 

[Aquitaine]

I didn't display the "exact same behaviour" because I did not make any generalisations about Hindus. I stated that a number of HIndus want the caste system in the UK and that David Cameron, our PM has signed a document allowing for such measures. That is fact. Maybe do your research some time. I'm sure there are many HIndus that don't want that but if you read my whole comment, you will understand the context of what I said.

No, you did not, review what you wrote:

Especially when compared to Hindus or Sikhs who want to bring the racist caste system from India to the UK...sadly signed off by our great PM.

Sounds like a rather broad generalization of two different religious groups. No "some", just "Hindus" and "Sikhs".

Now, you're second paragraph is just plain stupid. Sorry, I don't pull punches. It is completely off the track of what I actually posted. I said traditional British values (and i named them) are enshrined in Islam. That's the truth, especially with regards to family and charity. Now, I said the problems in modern Britain are problems "we all face", so I was noexcusing myself and I am, yet again, not making generalisations. A simple look over the stats in teh UK will show you single mothers are on the rise (fathers leaving), a lack of charity is witnessed every day by the growing number of homeless and so on. BUt again, it's a problem for us all to face.

"We all face" doesn't necessarily mean "we're all guilty of", I know very well what you were getting at: "indigenous" Brits are eroding the values which your religion apparently enshrines. You gave it away in your following sentence:

We are more British than the so called indigenous people.

A complete case of the "Us vs Them" mentality, given the context of your response.

I won't even humour you with the ridiculous claims you make.

What, even though such things exist and are a persistent problem in multiple Islamic countries across the globe? Not that I normally generalise so broadly, but I am merely giving you a taste of your own medicine.

And finally, with regards to the MI5 report, it was not made by the media. It was made by...you know, the MI5, hence why I called it the MI5 report. Maybe you have a problem with English comprehension.

I know that, my comment was about the media broadcasting about the MI5 report. Review the aforementioned comment along with my response. Honestly, you can't criticize my reading comprehension whilst making an error this bad.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Some factual claims from the article linked to below:

- About 44 million Muslims live in Europe
- Europe has been encouraging Muslim immigration for 70 years
- A significant percentage of the Muslims living in Europe disagree with secularism.

Of course I understand that NOT ALL MUSLIMS living in Europe fall into this category. On the other hand, we often use statistics to draw general conclusions; e.g. "cancer is dangerous", "green vegetables are nutritious", "seat belts save lives", "Ethiopians have shorter life spans", and so on.

So, is it fair to conclude that: "Muslim immigrants do not want to assimilate into their host countries." ?

http://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/why-do-europes-muslims-hate-the-west/

All Muslims are required to work/fight to establish Sharia Law. That's not assimilation, it's conquest.

Quran (9:29):
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

There's no better example of how evil a revealed religion can become...and there are others, past and present. The best counter-example are the Jews, who assimilate without any hint of such conquest. Yet the world largely hates the Jews much more than Muslims. That's one of the most idiotic, inexplicable situations I can imagine.

 

[LuisDantas]

ice said:

Luis said:

Why?

The whole point is to encourage people to learn. Hopefully to sometimes learn better and spread the word.

 

[LuisDantas]

Benefit to whom? To the immigrants? But then who placed my country under an obligation to act as a reformatory for bigots, let alone murders? And why is it necessary?

Would you rather be mistrusted and feel threatened when you could have avoided it?

 

[icehorse]

The whole point is to encourage people to learn. Hopefully to sometimes learn better and spread the word.

I agree strategically. Tactically, I think we have to acknowledge the intractability of what we're up against, and not pretend that a little optional adult education is going to make any sort of meaningful impact. In order for education to work, we have to start with an honest appraisal of the situation.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

Would you rather be mistrusted and feel threatened when you could have avoided it?

I couldn't care less whether the Muslims mistrust me (but why should they?) and I'm only threatened if they come to my country.

 

[LuisDantas]

I couldn't care less whether the Muslims mistrust me (but why should they?) and I'm only threatened if they come to my country.

That is an extremely dangerous stance for one to have. I can't possibly approve of it.

 

[LuisDantas]

I agree strategically. Tactically, I think we have to acknowledge the intractability of what we're up against, and not pretend that a little optional adult education is going to make any sort of meaningful impact. In order for education to work, we have to start with an honest appraisal of the situation.

Living among a people is not optional education. It is unavoidable education.

 

[icehorse]

Living among a people is not optional education. It is unavoidable education.

I can read this several ways. If you're saying that immigrants have no choice but to learn about their host's culture because they live there, well I'd agree to some degree. But we also see many situations in which immigrants form insulated communities within the host country and resist such education. Additionally, living in a community in no way assures us that the community will act as some sort of good teacher of secularism.

 

[LuisDantas]

I can read this several ways. If you're saying that immigrants have no choice but to learn about their host's culture because they live there, well I'd agree to some degree. But we also see many situations in which immigrants form insulated communities within the host country and resist such education. Additionally, living in a community in no way assures us that the community will act as some sort of good teacher of secularism.

Enforcing frontiers assures mistrust and ignorace about other cultures, which is what we aim to avoid.

Secularism is a good thing to learn. But an even higher priority is giving the hated and mistrusted Jews/Americans/ Westerners/Mexicans/Muslims/Iraqis/Syrians/whatever actual names and faces that people can see every day. People need reasons not to be so quick to play with toy soldiers that always glorify summary killing of "foreigners".

 

[icehorse]

Hey Luis,

I'm not advocating "enforcing frontiers". Quite the opposite, I'm advocating "enforcing education". Remember I suggested the idea that we ALL ought to take classes in comparative religion. It strikes me that such an initiative would be in keeping with your approach, no?

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

I couldn't care less whether the Muslims mistrust me (but why should they?) and I'm only threatened if they come to my country.

“We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately."--B.F.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

That is an extremely dangerous stance for one to have. I can't possibly approve of it.

I shall endeavour to overcome my distress

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

I shall endeavour to overcome my distress

**Looks askance, drums fingers**

 

[Sakeenah]

Honesty, in today's culture, is often dismissed as "intolerance," "disrespectful," "hateful," "prejudice," or some kind of "phobia"; so much so that such accusations are meaningless and in poor taste in the real world. In this case, however, it is true that I have no respect for your dangerously naive ideas.

Many believe that Chamberlain's attempts to appease Hitler (one of Islam's heros) led to the unnecessary deaths of hundreds of thousands. In the same way, it is dangerous and naive to imagine that Islam, which was bent on world domination from its very inception, can be appeased.

I'm curious if violence and abuse towards people from a certain religion isn't phobia, intolerant or hateful, what is?

Hitler isn't a hero of Islam .Clearly you are reading " islam support nazis propaganda" These are just false accusations. If you are basing this on a couple of muslims supporting him at that time or a few pictures.You could say the same about christianity or christians.There are photos with christian clergy with Hitler,Mussolini and other nazis ,fascists.
The christian connection with the nazis and fascists was widespread and well-documented.the muslim connection was minimal.And,just as there were Christians who resisted and fought against the nazi and fascist regimes there were also many muslims who fought against them. There were muslims from north and west africa, Indian muslims,soviet muslims and arab muslims.

Albania was the only muslim majority country in Europe.Albania not only saved Albanian jews they were also the only country that had a larger jewish population at the end of the war than before the war.Not one jew who came to Albania for protection was turned over to the Nazis.

So I would advise you to actually research before making claims like
" Hitler is a Hero of Islam "