lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
the creed says we believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ and then later says we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord. so is Jesus the Holy Spirit since both are described as the Lord and they only believe in one Lord.
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Do people understand the trinity doctrine?
- Thread starter Desert Snake
- Start date
I'm curious at what point in history metaphysical and theological descriptions became definitions?
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe this is only true in the Athansian creed which was rejected at the Nicene Council. The Nicene creed does not make them separate persons.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe Jesus is not the Holy Spirit but The Spirit of God that is in Jesus is and identifies Himself to believers as Jesus as well as Jehovah.
Thorwald Johansen
Member
What about the book of HEBREWS?
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
What about Hebrews? It makes it plain from the beginning that he is not God.
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
EDIT - Forgot to add he says - "this day have I begotten thee" to King David and others in the Bible.
NOW - I will assume you refer to -
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
That word translated "firstbegotten" only means- a first - one of a kind - which the Messiah - which Jesus was claiming to be - would indeed be called. Nothing to do with being a God.
Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:8 But moreover to the Son, the throne of Thee oh God, is forever and ever. A staff of righteousness is the scepter of thy reign.
As you can see, again no Jesus as God - though they tried to make it look like it says that in translations.
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Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Ingledsva, doesn't it strike you as odd that the angels of God should worship him (the firstbegotten)? Look at Psalm 8:5. It says, 'For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.'
So the firstbegotten was made a little lower than the angels, but the angels worshipped him! Would angels worship a MAN?
All you Old Testament unitarians have a big problem with the New Testament. The love of God has come to earth and YOU REFUSE TO ACCEPT IT. The love of God came as the son of God amongst US, and now dwells IN those who receive Christ by faith. By dismissing the trinity all you do is throw God's grace back in His face.
So the firstbegotten was made a little lower than the angels, but the angels worshipped him! Would angels worship a MAN?
All you Old Testament unitarians have a big problem with the New Testament. The love of God has come to earth and YOU REFUSE TO ACCEPT IT. The love of God came as the son of God amongst US, and now dwells IN those who receive Christ by faith. By dismissing the trinity all you do is throw God's grace back in His face.
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Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Take a good hard look at Ephesians 4:6.
'One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.'
This is a verse from a letter written by Paul to the church at Ephesus.
As unitarians, you do not acknowledge the grace of God. For unitarians, the passage should read, 'One God ... of all, who is above all', and there it ends.
God, for unitarians, is not a Father. Only a son (or child) of God can call God his Father. We only become sons of God by adoption when we accept Christ, the only begotten Son of God. Christ sends us the spirit of adoption.
'One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.'
This is a verse from a letter written by Paul to the church at Ephesus.
As unitarians, you do not acknowledge the grace of God. For unitarians, the passage should read, 'One God ... of all, who is above all', and there it ends.
God, for unitarians, is not a Father. Only a son (or child) of God can call God his Father. We only become sons of God by adoption when we accept Christ, the only begotten Son of God. Christ sends us the spirit of adoption.
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
It is not a good idea to tell a faith what they believe.
Unitarians do believe in one God.
However it is down to the individual how they interpret the bible and what they derive from it.
Unitarinism has no set dogma.
Some do indeed believe that Jesus is God's son. While others do not see him as an actual son, but only as we are also seen, as the children of God. In either event, Jesus was chosen to teach us God's message of love.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
There is absolutely no problem with God telling the angels to worship Jesus - whom is not God, -
as he is claiming to be the awaited MESSIAH - a SPECIAL HUMAN - from the line of David - within whom the Logos/LAW is enfleshed - so he can do his Messiah chores, - and whom brings about the END, - and final Judgment of those waiting in Sheol,- and receives a thrown beside YHVH.
The Logos is NOT Jesus, - it is the LAW that is with YHVH from the beginning.
The Logos is ENFLESHED within the HUMAN Jesus, as the MESSIAH, so he can do what he is meant to do.
Jesus is not God, and there is no trinity concept in the Bible.
PS. Use the REPLY function, so I know you have replied to me.
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Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Pure BULL, Tanakh tells us we are imbued with the spirit of God - and thus live humans. - So within us ALL.
Jesus is NOT God. You conveniently leave out some verses that show Jesus is NOT God.
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
They are not the same!
Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Totally separate beings. Jesus is NOT GOD.
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lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Maybe it would be more accurate to say that Jesus is not the Father. Jesus and the Father both part of "God". God is lake a family name. there is a Father whose last name is God and a son whose last name is God. People mistakenly use the name God to refer to the Father alone.In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God (the Father) and the Word was God ( part of the family) Later the Word was made flesh and was called Jesus.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Nope, - Jesus is not God in any fashion. There is no trinity concept in the Bible. And the children of Israel are called the Sons of God. It does not mean a DNA parent.
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Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Terrywoodenpic, you seem to be missing the point completely. Of course unitarians believe in one God. This is the central belief of all Jews, as stated in the SHEMA. But ALL unitarians are agreed that there is no TRINITY. I am saying that there must be a trinity for there to be a New Testament. The New Testament messaage is that God has come to earth in Jesus, and that his baptism allows others to share in the spirit of sonship. Believers are part of the body of Christ, the Church. This is only possible if you share the same spirit as the only begotten son.
Ingledsva, Ephesians 4:5 is a reference to the spirit that is LORD. If you choose to say that the Lord is different from God, then tell me what the 'one faith' refers to. Is it faith in Christ but not God? If so, that makes two different faiths, not one.
Ingledsva, Ephesians 4:5 is a reference to the spirit that is LORD. If you choose to say that the Lord is different from God, then tell me what the 'one faith' refers to. Is it faith in Christ but not God? If so, that makes two different faiths, not one.
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Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Ingledsva, where does it say that the Word of God is LAW? The Word of God is spirit and truth. Jesus Christ is the WORD OF GOD. (Revelation 19:13)
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
This is pure bull, the whole story of Jesus can be read with no trinity.
The NT message is NOT - "that God has come to earth In Jesus,"
It is that the LOGOS/LAW which was in the beginning with GOD, was enfleshed in the HUMAN Jesus, - so he could perform his MESSIAH role.
Jesus only claims to be the awaited Jewish Messiah, - whom is a special HUMAN - from the line of David.
Jesus does not say he is God.
Jesus does not say he is part of a trinity.
In fact, as stated over and over, - there is no trinity doctrine in the Bible.
The trinity doctrine was made up much later. So, obviously we can have a New Testament without the trinity idea.
The Bible specifically tells us Jesus' power is by adoption and inheritance. (See #27 above)
He isn't skitzo! He prays to his father - a separate and ONLY GOD.
He asks his God to take the task from him!
Again - is he SKITZO? Or a human praying to his ONE God?
PS. PLEASE USE THE REPLY BUTTON, and put each person on a separate post, so we can see them, and reply.
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Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
LOL! Right! I'm supposed to accept the garbled DREAM of someone - written last - and LONG-LONG-LONG after said events and Jesus' death, - by a person whom obviously was not there, and who was BROUGHT UP IN THE TRADITION of JESUS is the LOGOS?
Look up John 1 in the Greek.
It says ALL are given the ability to become sons/children of God.
It says Jesus is the light, not the Logos. That word means to illuminate. = A teacher/Messiah.
This is what we read in the KJV -
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
However it actually means enfleshed within, and this is further emphasized by the word - skēnoō - to tent, occupy, reside in, to tabernacle = within something else.
John 1:14 And the Logos/Law ENFLESHED came to be, and TABERNACLED among us,
Very specifically - The Logos was put within (enfleshed/tabernacled) the special HUMAN Jesus - for his MESSIAH role.
It DOES NOT SAY Jesus is the LOGOS.
This line from John makes it plain Jesus is the awaited Annointed/MESSIAH, not a God.
Joh 1:20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
They also mention the prophecies of Esaias, - which again shows that Jesus is the awaited HUMAN MESSIAH from the line of David.
Joh 1:23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
Jesus is not a God, or part of a trinity, and John 1 does NOT say he is.
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lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Jesus is called the "Son of God". If a child is the son of "Mr Jones" then it is correct to say that child is a "Jones". So if Jesus is the Son Of God why isn't He therefore a God
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
How many times do we have to repeat - ALL of the Jewish people are called SONS OF GOD - in the Bible.
King David is called Son of God.
Psalm 2:7 "I will declare the decree: YHVH hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. (KING DAVID!)
2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
2Sa 7:15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
They obviously ARE NOT GOD!!!!!!
Being called a Son/Child of God - does not mean you are God.
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