Do people understand the trinity doctrine?

[lostwanderingsoul]

it means you are part of God's family

 

[Ingledsva]

it means you are part of God's family

Correct, as are all the Jews according to Tanakh.

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[Redemptionsong]

Ingledsva, let me spell this out.
Trinitarians believe in ONE GOD. God is spirit.
Trinitarians believe that Jesus Christ (who is the Messiah) was BOTH human and divine. (Colossians 2:9)
The flesh of Jesus Christ was crucified. He was raised immortal and incorruptible. He sits at the right hand of his Father in heaven. The two are ONE.
I am able to worship the Father, in the name of the Son, because the Holy Spirit leads me to do so. That's the trinity in reality.

For the unitarian, God is transcendent. Jesus Christ is a MAN.That means that Jesus Christ is not a true mediator (representing both God and Man). He cannot be a saviour because he is not perfect. Only God is perfect and without sin.

The LOGOS, the word of God, comes from the SPIRIT OF GOD. It was with the Father in the beginning. And, as John 1:10 says, HE WAS IN THE WORLD!

Did you miss Him?

P.S. John 1:17,18.
'For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.'

 

[Redemptionsong]

Here's the rub...
Exodus 34:14. 'For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:'

Let's agree that there is only ONE worthy of worship. That is GOD.

If Jesus Christ is NOT worthy of worship, he is NOT God. If he IS worthy of worship, then he IS God.

Hebrews 1:4-6
'Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? (Psalm 2:7) And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? (2 Samuel 7:14)
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. (Deuteronomy 32:43)'

The ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP JESUS CHRIST.

So who are YOU not to WORSHIP HIM??

 

[Redemptionsong]

Let's multiply the logic.

Hosea 13:4, 'Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.'

God says, THERE IS NO SAVIOUR BESIDE ME.

So, if Jesus Christ is not God, then Jesus Christ is not a saviour.

Matthew 1:21,'And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.'

Can Matthew be plainer? Jesus will be A SAVIOUR FROM SIN.

1+1, that must make him.......umm.....GOD.

 

[Ingledsva]

Ingledsva, let me spell this out.
Trinitarians believe in ONE GOD. God is spirit.
Trinitarians believe that Jesus Christ (who is the Messiah) was BOTH human and divine. (Colossians 2:9)
The flesh of Jesus Christ was crucified. He was raised immortal and incorruptible. He sits at the right hand of his Father in heaven. The two are ONE.
I am able to worship the Father, in the name of the Son, because the Holy Spirit leads me to do so. That's the trinity in reality.

ING - I am well aware of what Trinitarians believe. I was raised Christian.

The Bible does not agree with you. Jesus is not God. No trinity.

For the unitarian, God is transcendent. Jesus Christ is a MAN.That means that Jesus Christ is not a true mediator (representing both God and Man). He cannot be a saviour because he is not perfect. Only God is perfect and without sin.

ING - That is pure bull, The Messiah is a human from the line of David, - receives power to bring about the END, and judges the dead in Sheol.

The LOGOS, the word of God, comes from the SPIRIT OF GOD. It was with the Father in the beginning. And, as John 1:10 says, HE WAS IN THE WORLD!

Did you miss Him?

ING - AGAIN! Read it in the original language! That "he" is also "it!"

P.S. John 1:17,18.
'For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.'

EXPAND HIS to read all replies -

What is your point with that last one?

I, or anyone else, can declare God. That obviously doesn't make us God.

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[Ingledsva]

Here's the rub...
Exodus 34:14. 'For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:'

Let's agree that there is only ONE worthy of worship. That is GOD.

ING - Again BULL! I get so tired of you folks taking one sentence out of context!

Exo 34:13 But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:

Exo 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

Exo 34:14 For you shall not bow to another Elohiym, for YHVH whose name is Jealous, He is a jealous Elohiym;

Exo 34:15 Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;

VERY OBVIOUSLY - this section is about NOT committing IDOLATRY - worshiping OTHER GODS.

It has NOTHING to do with worship/bowing/giving reverence to appointed Kings, or the awaited Jewish Messiah sent from YHVH.

The Bible calls King David a begotten Son of God, worthy of worship, as are all other kings appointed by God, and worthy of worship. The Bible tells us the SPECIAL HUMAM MESSIAH from the Line of David - will bring about the end, and sit beside YHVH Judging those in Sheol. Obviously that is worthy of worship/reverence. No Godhood needed.

If Jesus Christ is NOT worthy of worship, he is NOT God. If he IS worthy of worship, then he IS God.

ING - SEE ABOVE. Not so! Anyone sent from God is worthy of reverence.

Hebrews 1:4-6
'Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? (Psalm 2:7) And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? (2 Samuel 7:14)
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. (Deuteronomy 32:43)'

ING - We have already covered these! Did you miss that BY INHERITANCE? Or "this day have I begotten thee" - the same thing he said to King David? The rest is below.

The ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP JESUS CHRIST.

So who are YOU not to WORSHIP HIM??

EXPAND HIS to read all replies -

As the Awaited Jewish MESSIAH - a SPECIAL HUMAN sent by YHVH to bring about the end, - Jesus would be the High Priest/Magistrate, - worthy of reverence. Supposedly YHVH gives him a throne beside him were he Judges the people in Sheol. A THRONE!

What he was NOT - was a God, - or part of any trinity.

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[Ingledsva]

Let's multiply the logic.

Hosea 13:4, 'Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.'

God says, THERE IS NO SAVIOUR BESIDE ME.

So, if Jesus Christ is not God, then Jesus Christ is not a saviour.

Matthew 1:21,'And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.'

Can Matthew be plainer? Jesus will be A SAVIOUR FROM SIN.

1+1, that must make him.......umm.....GOD.

This is getting OLD - I said you need to look at these in the original languages - AND the CONTEXT. You have again - taken this line out of context!

Hos 13:1 When Ephraim spake trembling, he exalted himself in Israel; but when he offended in Baal, he died.

Hos 13:2 And now they sin more and more, and have made them molten images of their silver, and idols according to their own understanding, all of it the work of the craftsmen: they say of them, Let the men that sacrifice kiss the calves.

Hos 13:3 Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff that is driven with the whirlwind out of the floor, and as the smoke out of the chimney.

Hos 13:4 Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.

Hos 13:4 Yet I am YHVH, your Elohiym from the land of Egypt; and you shall know no other gods than Me. For there is no Savior without Me.

Hos 13:5 I have known you in the wilderness, in the land of great drought.

Brenton translates it -

Hos 13:5 I tended thee as a shepherd in the wilderness, in an uninhabited land.

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He is saying here that they still commit IDOLATRY - and need to understand that HE YHVH saved them from Slavery in Egypt. He supplied MOSES to save them. They need to worship him not foreign Gods or idols.

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[paarsurrey]

Do people understand the trinity doctrine?

Trinity is a myth invented by Paul and the Church; there is nothing in it to understand. Jesus and Mary never said to understand it.

Regards

 

[Redemptionsong]

Paarsurrey, you're talking drivel.
Anyone who accepts that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, now raised to heaven, and enthroned, will accept that the Holy Spirit has been sent to believers. The body of believers forms the Church. It is also called the body of Christ because the believers share the same spirit as Christ himself.

It doesn't take an Einstein to work out that the Spirit in Christ was the Spirit of God. It doesn't take an Einstein to understand that the promised Holy Spirit, coming from the Father and Son in heaven, was also the Spirit of God.

Paul wasn't inventing a myth!! The coming of Christ and the giving of the Holy Spirit occurred before Paul's ministry even began! Paul was explaining these truths to the Gentiles.

The term TRINITY has people choking, but the real sticking point for people is JESUS CHRIST. As the scriptures rightly say, He will be a stumbling block for many.(Romans 9:32,33)

 

[Redemptionsong]

Ingledsva, this is what you said: 'The Bible calls King David a begotten Son of God, worthy of worship, as are all other kings appointed by God, and worthy of worship. The Bible tells us the SPECIAL HUMAM MESSIAH from the Line of David - will bring about the end, and sit beside YHVH Judging those in Sheol. Obviously that is worthy of worship/reverence. No Godhood needed.'

Ingledsva, you say that Jesus Christ is worshipped in the same manner as King David. But the difference is clear from the following passage in Matthew:

Matthew 22: 41-45, 'While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?'

It's no surprise that you have avoided giving any explanation as to why the angels should worship Jesus Christ. Angels don't worship human beings, special or not. Angels only worship God.

 

[Ingledsva]

Paarsurrey, you're talking drivel.
Anyone who accepts that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, now raised to heaven, and enthroned, will accept that the Holy Spirit has been sent to believers. The body of believers forms the Church. It is also called the body of Christ because the believers share the same spirit as Christ himself.

It doesn't take an Einstein to work out that the Spirit in Christ was the Spirit of God. It doesn't take an Einstein to understand that the promised Holy Spirit, coming from the Father and Son in heaven, was also the Spirit of God.

Paul wasn't inventing a myth!! The coming of Christ and the giving of the Holy Spirit occurred before Paul's ministry even began! Paul was explaining these truths to the Gentiles.

The term TRINITY has people choking, but the real sticking point for people is JESUS CHRIST. As the scriptures rightly say, He will be a stumbling block for many.(Romans 9:32,33)

You keep telling people they are wrong - but you are.

Any Biblical Scholar can tell you there is no trinity doctrine in the Bible. It was made up later.

Paul was making up a myth. Nothing you have said thus far in any way makes Jesus a God.

Jesus only claimed to be the Awaited Messiah.

You don't seem to understand that his Title Christos/Christ means the Anointed, - and shows that he is the awaited Messiah - not some trinity God.

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[Ingledsva]

Ingledsva, this is what you said: 'The Bible calls King David a begotten Son of God, worthy of worship, as are all other kings appointed by God, and worthy of worship. The Bible tells us the SPECIAL HUMAM MESSIAH from the Line of David - will bring about the end, and sit beside YHVH Judging those in Sheol. Obviously that is worthy of worship/reverence. No Godhood needed.'

Ingledsva, you say that Jesus Christ is worshipped in the same manner as King David. But the difference is clear from the following passage in Matthew:

Matthew 22: 41-45, 'While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?'

It's no surprise that you have avoided giving any explanation as to why the angels should worship Jesus Christ. Angels don't worship human beings, special or not. Angels only worship God.

BOY are you misreading and misunderstanding these.

If Jesus is not a Son of David - as per prophecy of Messiah - than he could not be the Messiah.

Think about that - than re-read with a study guide to understand what it is actually saying.

PS. The Christians fouled up that Hebrew translation as well. There is no Jesus in that David text.

These Psalms are about David. It actually says -

Psalm 110:1 A declaration of YHVH to my Adonai: Sit at My right hand, until I place Your enemies as Your footstool.

In other words -

A declaration of YHVH to my lord (King David)


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[Redemptionsong]

He is saying here that they still commit IDOLATRY - and need to understand that HE YHVH saved them from Slavery in Egypt. He supplied MOSES to save them. They need to worship him not foreign Gods or idols.

Ingledsva, are you suggesting that God was telling the Israelites to worship MOSES?!

It wasn't Moses that saved the Israelites! Moses waited on God for salvation.

Accept it - Jesus Christ is the ONLY SAVIOUR FROM SIN.
Luke 5:21, 'Who can forgive sins but God alone?'

 

[Redemptionsong]

Well Ingledsva, you clearly think that your word is more trustworthy than the word of Jesus Christ!!

Jesus was quoting from Psalm 110, and he knew very well that 'my Lord' was not a reference to King David but to the Son of God (himself).

Are you calling Jesus a liar?

 

[Ingledsva]

Ingledsva, are you suggesting that God was telling the Israelites to worship MOSES?!

It wasn't Moses that saved the Israelites! Moses waited on God for salvation.

Accept it - Jesus Christ is the ONLY SAVIOUR FROM SIN.
Luke 5:21, 'Who can forgive sins but God alone?'

Boy are you confused! Re-read! I obviously did NOT say that.

YHVH is telling them in a very specific situation, to worship only him rather than other Gods/Idols.

He is saying he saved them by sending Moses, not their golden idols.

It has nothing to do with worshiping/bowing to/revering Appointed Kings, or the Messiah.

According to the Bible - the HUMAN MESSIAH - is given a thrown beside God, - so obviously there is no problem bowing to him, as to other appointed HUMAN Kings.

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[Ingledsva]

Well Ingledsva, you clearly think that your word is more trustworthy than the word of Jesus Christ!!

Jesus was quoting from Psalm 110, and he knew very well that 'my Lord' was not a reference to King David but to the Son of God (himself).

Are you calling Jesus a liar?

You are hilarious!

The Hebrew text is NOT referring to Jesus.

Those Psalms are about King David, as shown, and it specifically says YHVH to my lord (whom is King David) as stated by the Psalmists, and the Hebrew. Again - ask them - go to a Jewish site and learn what these actually say, and mean!

I didn't call anyone a liar. I told you to look it up - and figure out what it actually means.

However, those people were writing those texts - long after Jesus was dead, - and they NOT having been there, - certainly could be Liars.

EDIT - Forgot to add - you do not have the word of Jesus! You have words written by people whom were not there, - long after his death!

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[Unveiled Artist]

The trinity, to the Church, is a union between the Christian, the Church (Eucharist/Jesus), and God always at the head. Within the Church, the community of believers makes up the trinity of God, at the head, Jesus as the Savior, and the Holy Spirit God sent to make Christians in union with His Son, hence Him. (God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit)

To the Church, the trinity does Not mean Jesus is God. She (the Church) is married to God as the Christian is married to the Church.

So when someone says "the Church made up thr trinity" they did, in a sense, that they promote unity of its members in the Body of Christ. That is the trinity.

What I see incorrectly stated is Jesus being God, the Father. If that be the case, there is no mediator. There is no crucifiction because God cannot die in the flesh. God cannot be "resurrected" back to Himself. If one just thinks about it logically, it doesnt make sense. An atheist can probably pick it up without reading the bible.

Where have reconstructionist of Christianity found this doctrine of the trinity when they did not exist before the Church-who--chose what to put in the Bible to begin with?

Maybe someone can put it in language I and others can understand. I dont know.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

first time i heard Jesus is married to God. maybe a little more information is needed. to the church the trinity is Father, Son, Holy Spirit as three "persons" making up God

 

[Unveiled Artist]

first time i heard Jesus is married to God. maybe a little more information is needed. to the church the trinity is Father, Son, Holy Spirit as three "persons" making up God

I meant She is married to God. Forgot Church is refered to as a she.