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Do Public Accommodations Laws Violate Free Speech and Free Exercise Rights?

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Please provide a link from the NRA-ILA that says exactly that.
You already provided it: NRA-ILA | NRA Backs Concealed Carry Reciprocity Bill in U.S. House

This legislation would not override state laws governing the time, place or manner of carriage or establish national standards for concealed carry. Individual state gun laws would still be respected.​

The bill would not (and cannot) require a state to recognize a CCW permit that is not valid in that state. The bill would not and cannot override a state's laws governing what is a valid CCW permit in that state. The bill would not establish a national CCW permit standard such as that a person who has a CCW permit issued by one state may carry a concealed weapon in any state.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
sorry to be here late......
as for conduct....

I make knives as a hobby

If someone commissioned a blade and I then realize he is a sex offender......

no knife

so.....does someone else's sexual orientation and conduct matter to me?
apparently so
You need to read the public accommodations laws and case law noted in the OP.
 

esmith

Veteran Member
If you come across any information showing that anything I've said here is erroneous, be sure to cite it.
I already did in Post#180 but I'll list them again
Note: below link has invalid accusations. Examples
"allowing people who have never been screened by a background check to carry throughout the country."
"It would force each state to recognize all permits—even if the permit holder would otherwise not be allowed to possess a gun."
So you might want to disagree with their premise about all states must honor all other states CCW permits
https://everytownresearch.org/conce...y-h-r-38-overriding-state-public-safety-laws/

and you might want to disagree with these links. By the way the first link below is from: Gun Violence Prevention Center of Utah even though it doesn't read that way

Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act of 2017 (H.R. 38)
https://www.thetrace.org/2017/04/nra-national-concealed-carry-reciprocity-explained/

Do these disagree with your premise? If they don't explain why
And I will repeat that I will wait for the bill to become law before I give my opinion.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Perhaps Rutan and Sackett are correct, and the bill would be simply unconstitutional:

The provision in H.R. 38 that allows permit-less carry is falsely referred to by the bill’s sponsor as “constitutional carry”—a fundamental misnomer. There is no Second Amendment right to carry a concealed weapon. The late, conservative Justice Antonin Scalia—author of the District of Columbia v. Heller decision—wrote that the individual right to bear arms “was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose.” Indeed, Justice Scalia specifically noted that “prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues.”​

Perhaps that explains why there is a 2% chance of it being enacted.

I will wait for the bill to become law before I give my opinion.
It seems unlikely you will get that opportunity.
 

esmith

Veteran Member
Perhaps Rutan and Sackett are correct, and the bill would be simply unconstitutional:

The provision in H.R. 38 that allows permit-less carry is falsely referred to by the bill’s sponsor as “constitutional carry”—a fundamental misnomer. There is no Second Amendment right to carry a concealed weapon. The late, conservative Justice Antonin Scalia—author of the District of Columbia v. Heller decision—wrote that the individual right to bear arms “was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose.” Indeed, Justice Scalia specifically noted that “prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues.”​

Perhaps that explains why there is a 2% chance of it being enacted.

It seems unlikely you will get that opportunity.
why would it be unconstitutional?
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
why would it be unconstitutional?
Because, as Heller makes abundantly clear, "the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues." And that precedent remains today. The Second Amendment and state analogues do not protect a right to carry concealed weapons. See Peruta.
 

esmith

Veteran Member
Because, as Heller makes abundantly clear, "the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues." And that precedent remains today. The Second Amendment and state analogues do not protect a right to carry concealed weapons. See Peruta.
Guess those that are against the bill don't think it is or they wouldn't be campaigning against it would they? Then again who knows.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Guess those that are against the bill don't think it is or they wouldn't be campaigning against it would they? Then again who knows.
There's no question that a federal law that wipes out or overrides states' CCW laws is unconstitutional. The precedent is unequivocal that states can regulate or outlaw the carrying of concealed weapons. Again, see Peruta.
 

esmith

Veteran Member
There's no question that a federal law that wipes out or overrides states' CCW laws is unconstitutional. The precedent is unequivocal that states can regulate or outlaw the carrying of concealed weapons. Again, see Peruta.
Ah, but are you not forgetting about Article VI Clause 2 of the Constitution, the Supremacy Clause. If the Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act of 2017 (H.R. 38) becomes law then Peruta v California becomes a moot ruling.
Note: I'm neither defending or arguing against the bill, just bringing forward points of contention.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Ah, but are you not forgetting about Article VI Clause 2 of the Constitution, the Supremacy Clause. If the Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act of 2017 (H.R. 38) becomes law then Peruta v California becomes a moot ruling.
No, I have not forgotten the Supremacy Clause. Article VI provides that the US “Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof . . . shall be the supreme law of the land.” (My emphasis.) Wiping out states' CCW laws and conscritpting state officers to enforce a federal scheme are not among the powers vested in Congress in pursuance of the provisions of the Constitution. “The Constitution creates a Federal Government of enumerated powers. See U. S. Const., Art. I, §8. As James Madison wrote, '[t]he powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite.' The Federalist No. 45, pp. 292-293 (C. Rossiter ed. 1961).” US v. Lopez. “Every law enacted by Congress must be based on one or more of its powers enumerated in the Constitution. 'The powers of the legislature are defined and limited; and that those limits may not be mistaken or forgotten, the constitution is written.' Marbury v. Madison, 1 Cranch 137, 176 (1803) (Marshall, C. J.).” US v. Morrison.

The case law clearly establishes that carrying concealed weapons is not a right protected by the Second Amendment of the US Constitution (“. . . the right of the people to keep and bear arms (article 2) is not infringed by laws prohibiting the carrying of concealed weapons . . .” Robertson v. Baldwin, 165 U.S. 275 (1897)). Regulating the manner that persons may carry deadly weapons is unquestionably among the states' police powers granted by the Tenth Amendment, “which gives states the rights and powers 'not delegated to the United States.' States are thus granted the power to establish and enforce laws protecting the welfare, safety, and health of the public.” Printz v. US provides an extensive discussion and example of the limit of Congress's power:

It is incontestible that the Constitution established a system of "dual sovereignty." Gregory v. Ashcroft, 501 U.S. 452, 457 (1991); Tafflin v. Levitt, 493 U.S. 455, 458 (1990). Although the States surrendered many of their powers to the new Federal Government, they retained "a residuary and inviolable sovereignty," The Federalist No. 39, at 245 (J. Madison). This is reflected throughout the Constitution's text, Lane County v. Oregon, 7 Wall. 71, 76 (1869); Texas v. White, 7 Wall. 700, 725 (1869), including (to mention only a few examples) the prohibition on any involuntary reduction or combination of a State's territory, Art. IV, §3; the Judicial Power Clause, Art. III, §2, and the Privileges and Immunities Clause, Art. IV, §2, which speak of the "Citizens" of the States; the amendment provision, Article V, which requires the votes of three fourths of the States to amend the Constitution; and the Guarantee Clause, Art. IV, §4, which "presupposes the continued existence of the states and . . . those means and instrumentalities which are the creation of their sovereign and reserved rights," Helvering v. Gerhardt, 304 U.S. 405, 414-415 (1938). Residual state sovereignty was also implicit, of course, in the Constitution's conferral upon Congress of not all governmental powers, but only discrete, enumerated ones, Art. I, §8, which implication was rendered express by the Tenth Amendment's assertion that "[t]he powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

The Framers' experience under the Articles of Confederation had persuaded them that using the States as the instruments of federal governance was both ineffectual and provocative of federal state conflict. See The Federalist No. 15. Preservation of the States as independent political entities being the price of union, and "[t]he practicality of making laws, with coercive sanctions, for the States as political bodies" having been, in Madison's words, "exploded on all hands," 2 Records of the Federal Convention of 1787, p. 9 (M. Farrand ed. 1911), the Framers rejected the concept of a central government that would act upon and through the States, and instead designed a system in which the state and federal governments would exercise concurrent authority over the people--who were, in Hamilton's words, "the only proper objects of government," The Federalist No. 15, at 109. We have set forth the historical record in more detail elsewhere, see New York v. United States, 505 U. S., at 161-166, and need not repeat it here. It suffices to repeat the conclusion: "The Framers explicitly chose a Constitution that confers upon Congress the power to regulate individuals, not States." Id., at 166. [n.10] The great innovation of this design was that-our citizens would have two political capacities, one state and one federal, each protected from incursion by the other"--"a legal system unprecedented in form and design, establishing two orders of government, each with its own direct relationship, its own privity, its own set of mutual rights and obligations to the people who sustain it and are governed by it." U. S. Term Limits, Inc. v. Thornton, 514 U.S. 779, 838 (1995) (Kennedy, J., concurring). The Constitution thus contemplates that a State's government will represent and remain accountable to its own citizens. See New York, supra, at 168-169; United States v. Lopez, 514 U.S. 549, 576-577 (1995) (Kennedy, J., concurring). Cf. Edgar v. MITE Corp., 457 U.S. 624, 644 (1982) ("the State has no legitimate interest in protecting nonresident[ s ]"). As Madison expressed it: "[T]he local or municipal authorities form distinct and independent portions of the supremacy, no more subject, within their respective spheres, to the general authority than the general authority is subject to them, within its own sphere." The Federalist No. 39, at 245. [n.11]

This separation of the two spheres is one of the Constitution's structural protections of liberty. "Just as the separation and independence of the coordinate branches of the Federal Government serve to prevent the accumulation of excessive power in any one branch, a healthy balance of power between the States and the Federal Government will reduce the risk of tyranny and abuse from either front." Gregory, supra, at 458.

[. . .]

. . . where, as here, it is the whole object of the law to direct the functioning of the state executive, and hence to compromise the structural framework of dual sovereignty, such a "balancing" analysis is inappropriate. [n.17] It is the very principle of separate state sovereignty that such a law offends, and no comparative assessment of the various interests can overcome that fundamental defect. Cf. Bowsher, 478 U. S., at 736 (declining to subject principle of separation of powers to a balancing test); Chadha, 462 U. S., at 944-946 (same); Plaut v. Spendthrift Farm, Inc., 514 U.S. 211, 239-240 (1995) (holding legislated invalidation of final judgments to be categorically unconstitutional).

[. . .]

We held in New York that Congress cannot compel the States to enact or enforce a federal regulatory program. Today we hold that Congress cannot circumvent that prohibition by conscripting the State's officers directly. The Federal Government may neither issue directives requiring the States to address particular problems, nor command the States' officers, or those of their political subdivisions, to administer or enforce a federal regulatory program. It matters not whether policymaking is involved, and no case by case weighing of the burdens or benefits is necessary; such commands are fundamentally incompatible with our constitutional system of dual sovereignty
Printz v. United States, 521 U.S. 898 (1997)

HR 38 conscripts states' officers and requires them to enforce, not their own state's constitutional CCW laws, but a "federal regulatory scheme" not unlike the one struck down in Printz.

Note: I'm neither defending or arguing against the bill, just bringing forward points of contention.
You are unusually competent in doing so.
 

esmith

Veteran Member
Question, you say "Wiping out states' CCW laws and conscritpting state officers to enforce a federal scheme are not among the powers vested in Congress in pursuance of the provisions of the Constitution." State officers do no have to enforce federal laws if they go against State laws. So is H.R. 38 conscripting state officers to enforce a federal scheme? If so provide the wording in H.R. 38 that states this. Technically H.R. 38 is not "wiping out states CCW laws". All H.R. 38 says if a state allows CCW then they must allow residents of another state that can carry concealed to carry concealed in that state, as long as they abide by the State laws where (locations) carrying concealed is and is not allowed. The State can still regulate the requirements for a CCW permit in that state for their residents or anyone wishing to obtain that states CCW permit. .
This bill (H.R. 38) does not change the ruling of the SCOTUS as applies to the 2nd Amendment and the right to carry concealed.

You have listed, as far as I'm concerned, gobbledgook in the rest of your post. In other words, condense the lawyerese to layman terms. Give your own interpretation if you so desire, however by doing so you are expressing an opinion.
Now your reference to Robertson v. Baldwin, 165 U.S. 275 (1897) has nothing to do with firearms it is a case of a sailor who basically didn't want to continue on a voyage and the rest is gobbledgook lawyerese.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Question, you say "Wiping out states' CCW laws and conscritpting state officers to enforce a federal scheme are not among the powers vested in Congress in pursuance of the provisions of the Constitution." State officers do no have to enforce federal laws if they go against State laws. So is H.R. 38 conscripting state officers to enforce a federal scheme? If so provide the wording in H.R. 38 that states this.
I don't know how to be clearer about this. HR 38 provides that "a person who is not prohibited by Federal law from possessing, transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm, who is carrying a valid identification document containing a photograph of the person, and who is carrying a valid license or permit which is issued pursuant to the law of a State and which permits the person to carry a concealed firearm or is entitled to carry a concealed firearm in the State in which the person resides, may possess or carry a concealed handgun . . . in any State . . ." Thus, if (as I now believe would be the case) HR 38 would require Massachusetts, for example, to not subject a person found carrying a concealed weapon to the state's conditions for a CCW permit, then HR 38 thereby invalidates Massachusetts' laws such as the statute that allows the colonel of the state police to deny a CCW permit to someone the colonel determines to be a risk. Massachusetts' officers would thereby be conscripted to enforce the federal law rather than the constitutional state law.

This bill (H.R. 38) does not change the ruling of the SCOTUS as applies to the 2nd Amendment and the right to carry concealed.
What "right to carry concealed" are you talking about? Cite the decision.

You have listed, as far as I'm concerned, gobbledgook in the rest of your post. In other words, condense the lawyerese to layman terms.
I don't have a clue what you are unable to understand about the case law I cited and quoted, which was for the purpose of demonstrating your error regarding the Supremacy Clause. Just because Congress passes a law does not make it constitutional. Congress cannot enact laws that infringe the police powers of states.
 
Come October, the Court will hear the appeal of Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, a case in which a wedding cake bakery, after refusing to serve a same-sex couple, was found to have violated Colorado's public accommodations provision that prohibits businesses to discriminate against customers on the basis of sexual orientation.

Well, damn. It's been a very busy week, so I'm just now getting back to deep reading the answers from my "can they make me make a cake" question. This thread predates me here, but it does address most of my questions. I did scan thread titles to see if this had come up but I didn't go back far enough and didn't get that this title had to do with my question.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Well, damn. It's been a very busy week, so I'm just now getting back to deep reading the answers from my "can they make me make a cake" question. This thread predates me here, but it does address most of my questions. I did scan thread titles to see if this had come up but I didn't go back far enough and didn't get that this title had to do with my question.
You know, @chickenranch, you are so unusual in doing reading on the topic at hand. High-five to you!
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
And @Laika, you are so unusual in exactly the same way. High-five to you!

thanks dude. When you start a thread, your posts are often some of the most thoroughly researched I see on the forums and its a joy to see it. :D
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
thanks dude. When you start a thread, your posts are often some of the most thoroughly researched I see on the forums and its a joy to see it. :D
Thank you. (Of course, my repertoire is quite limited.)
 
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