Do religious people question the holy scriptures that they read???

[sojourner]

"Sometimes, the two are never reconciled, and that's OK too."

Well that makes sense. If you believe fantasy is real then a few facts in conflict would be no problem.

Course that also makes it impossible to establish anything as actual fact to be relied on.

Never said I believed fantasy was real. I said that fantasy can be useful for expanding ourselves. Mickey Mouse, Santa Claus, fairies -- these are all useful icons that help us tell the human story. Did it ever occur to you that Moby Dick might not be a real whale, but he is an icon for the human condition?
Let me guess, you never read Moby Dick, because it's not "factual."

Our religious myth does the same kind of thing.

Faith doesn't rely on fact. It relies on belief. Please don't try to confuse the two.

 

[Riverwolf]

Never said I believed fantasy was real. I said that fantasy can be useful for expanding ourselves. Mickey Mouse, Santa Claus, fairies -- these are all useful icons that help us tell the human story. Did it ever occur to you that Moby Dick might not be a real whale, but he is an icon for the human condition?
Let me guess, you never read Moby Dick, because it's not "factual."

Our religious myth does the same kind of thing.

Faith doesn't rely on fact. It relies on belief. Please don't try to confuse the two.

"Artists use lies to tell the truth." -V for Vendetta

Elves are symbols for the intellectual and spiritual side of humanity.
Dwarves symbolize pride and patriotism.
Hobbits are farmers and simpletons.
Orcs are brutal, stupid oafs.
Goblins are rambunctious children.
Wraiths are people who are empty inside, blindly following whatever is asked of them. Servants if you will.

None of these beings are real (nor are some of them exclusive to Tolkien), but each represent different sides of humanity which do exist in all our hearts.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

"Let me guess, you never read Moby Dick, because it's not "factual."

Wrong again! (You are consistent!)

It contains some the best descriptions of how whaling was actually done.

Interesting how you read your mythology into a explanation of the workings of an industry. Hawthorne did the same thing. Which irritated Melville no end. He told a tale - no more no less. It has no hidden meaning nor is it an allegory. It is based on 3 real (?) people he was told about in over rum in bars in New England.

Old sea dog tales nothing more. Nor was anything more intended.

 

[Riverwolf]

Old sea dog tales nothing more. Nor was anything more intended.

Just because meanings are not intended doesn't mean they aren't there.

I found meanings in Tolkien's mythology, even knowing that the man expressly stated in the foreword to LOTR Second Edition:

"As for any inner meanings or message, it has in the intention of the author, none. It is neither allegorical or topical."

As a storyteller myself, I tell you it is a fact that all artists, whether they mean to or not, put a little of themselves in their stories and characters. And often, you can find in these stories a statement about humanity as a whole.

I have not read Moby Dick yet, but I have seen the movie. (chastise me for that so we can get it out of the way ) Therefore, I know the story, and Captain Ahab could be seen as a representation of the ambitious and vengeful side of humanity, whether or not that was intended.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

". . . Captain Ahab could be seen as a representation of the ambitious and vengeful side of humanity, whether or not that was intended."

OK you have read your mythology into it and so corrupted the author's purpose.

Now what have you accomplished? (Other than to satisfy yourself that your myths are widely understood even if nobody actually says so.)

 

[Riverwolf]

". . . Captain Ahab could be seen as a representation of the ambitious and vengeful side of humanity, whether or not that was intended."

OK you have read your mythology into it and so corrupted the author's purpose.

Now what have you accomplished? (Other than to satisfy yourself that your myths are widely understood even if nobody actually says so.)

???

What mythology? It's very much a fact that humans are complex.

Are you aware of the factual existence of the subconscious?

 

[sojourner]

It contains some the best descriptions of how whaling was actually done.

That's all you got out of it? I believe that the novel (and it is a novel) is more than a textbook:

It is based on 3 real (?) people he was told about in over rum in bars in New England.

Old sea dog tales nothing more. Nor was anything more intended.

Why? What was his point? If that's "all it is," why do you think that it has endured?

Interesting how you read your mythology into a explanation of the workings of an industry.

Like it or not, the story has endured because it strikes a chord in those who read it. It stirs up something in us that is more than just intellectual masturbation. I'm not saying that he intentionally included shrouded spiritual truths under the guise of a novel. I'm saying that, if you take out the "supernatural religion," as you put it, we're left with nothing more than print on a page -- letters; words; sentences; construction. There's no emotion. There's no symmetry. There's no creativity. There's no beauty. Melville hasn't lasted because he wrote text. He has endured because he was an artist. His words go deep and draw something out of us. That's "supernatural religion."

 

[sojourner]

???

What mythology? It's very much a fact that humans are complex.

Are you aware of the factual existence of the subconscious?

I think he's aware of the lowest common denominator. Love is nothing more than hormones. Beauty is nothing more than symmetrical arrangement. Common experience is nothing more than a matter of communication, which, itself consists of nothing more than gestures or sounds that have become widely-understood within the community.
"Connection" has no real meaning.
There is no real enjoyment of life, because we're too busy sitting in our ivory towers and watching life from a safe distance.

"Hello! Is there anybody in there? Just nod if you can hear me. Is there anyone home?"

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

". . . Captain Ahab could be seen as a representation of the ambitious and vengeful side of humanity, whether or not that was intended."

OK you have read your mythology into it and so corrupted the author's purpose.

Now what have you accomplished? (Other than to satisfy yourself that your myths are widely understood even if nobody actually says so.)

Melville refers to Hindu Mythology in Moby Dick. The whale is to be seen as an incarnation of the God Vishnu.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]http://litthe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/15/4/358[/FONT]