Do the Axis Powers Have a Moral Obligation to Attack the US?

[Heyo]

In the hypothetical situation that seems more and more probable that Donald Trump loses the election and refuses to step down, do Germany, Italy and Japan have the moral obligation to restore democracy in the US? After all, that is what the US helped to do to us and pretended to do in other countries all over the world.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

In the hypothetical situation that seems more and more probable that Donald Trump loses the election and refuses to step down, do Germany, Italy and Japan have the moral obligation to restore democracy in the US? After all, that is what the US helped to do to us and pretended to do in other countries all over the world.

Are you sure this shouldn't be in 'Jokes'?

 

[exchemist]

In the hypothetical situation that seems more and more probable that Donald Trump loses the election and refuses to step down, do Germany, Italy and Japan have the moral obligation to restore democracy in the US? After all, that is what the US helped to do to us and pretended to do in other countries all over the world.

Only if the US declares war on one of them.

On the other hand, civil war in the USA, while very unlikely, no longer seems wholly out of the question. If that were to happen I can imagine the EU and Japan assisting in some way those forces trying to preserve the rule of law and democracy, and Russia assisting those trying to overthrow it. It would be an irony of history if Russia and the EU were to find themselves fighting a proxy war in the USA.

But democracy looks as if it is under threat in the USA. If the Supreme Court loses popular legitimacy, all hell could break loose.

 

[Estro Felino]

Only if the US declares war on one of them.

As for Italia and Deutschland, we are de facto US military colonies since 1945 so the US cannot declare war on themselves....

 

[Heyo]

Are you sure this shouldn't be in 'Jokes'?

Are you laughing?

 

[Heyo]

As for Italia and Deutschland, we are de facto US military colonies since 1945 so the US cannot declare war on themselves....

We were until 1989.
And a country in war with itself is called a civil war. Would we be neutral in such a war or on the side of the democratic forces?

 

[Estro Felino]

We were until 1989.
And a country in war with itself is called a civil war. Would we be neutral in such a war or on the side of the democratic forces?

I guess it has never happened in American history.
They all stepped down...
I understand you are speaking hypothethically...
The EU would side with democracy, yes.

 

[exchemist]

We were until 1989.
And a country in war with itself is called a civil war. Would we be neutral in such a war or on the side of the democratic forces?

I do not think the EU would be neutral. You would expect statements of strong support for the legal and constitutional order. Whether it would get involved in practical support for fighters, and what form that would take, is another thing. It is quite likely that the fighting would at least initially be between rival fairly extreme groups, like the brownshirts vs communists in Germany. Nobody would want to exacerbate that.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Are you laughing?

I'm fully cognisant of what happening in America. I'm less certain that referring to Germany and Japan (in particular) as 'Axis Powers' is very fair or non-insulting (if done with any seriousness).

 

[exchemist]

I'm fully cognisant of what happening in America. I'm less certain that referring to Germany and Japan (in particular) as 'Axis Powers' is very fair or non-insulting (if done with any seriousness).

I think it is alluding to the potential historical irony of the role-reversal and as such is quite an acute (certainly legitimate) commentary on how times have changed.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I think it is alluding to the potential historical irony of the role-reversal and as such is quite an acute (certainly legitimate) commentary on how times have changed.

Yeah. I know. It's just kinda...well...tongue in cheek, right?
On that spectrum, I get it, and it's chuckle worthy. As a serious commentary on where the world is heading? Nup.

Just my opinion though. I just figured the OP might have been dating it somewhat fascetiously.

 

[exchemist]

Yeah. I know. It's just kinda...well...tongue in cheek, right?
On that spectrum, I get it, and it's chuckle worthy. As a serious commentary on where the world is heading? Nup.

Just my opinion though. I just figured the OP might have been dating it somewhat fascetiously.

I like "fascetiously". Sort of like facetiously, but with a bit of a Heil Hitler thrown in.

 

[Heyo]

Yeah. I know. It's just kinda...well...tongue in cheek, right?
On that spectrum, I get it, and it's chuckle worthy. As a serious commentary on where the world is heading? Nup.

Just my opinion though. I just figured the OP might have been dating it somewhat fascetiously.

It was more intended as a different angle view (and maybe a bit of hyperbole) but not as a joke. I was seriously thinking about our responsibility if the US turns into a dictatorship.
The USA was crucial in giving us our Grundgesetz and democracy. I think we owe them.

 

[exchemist]

Yeah. I know. It's just kinda...well...tongue in cheek, right?
On that spectrum, I get it, and it's chuckle worthy. As a serious commentary on where the world is heading? Nup.

Just my opinion though. I just figured the OP might have been dating it somewhat fascetiously.

To be serious for a moment, it may be that people living in the USA don't fully realise the degree to which people outside are shocked and appalled by the undermining of the institutions of democracy that seems to be occurring under this president. Almost every institution of the state has been subverted, using the power of the presidency to sack or sideline professionals and replace them with yes-men, family members or people manifestly unqualified for the job but who are loyal. It seems to apply to everything, from the EPA and CDC to the CIA and, most alarmingly of all, the judiciary. The military seems to the one institution that has been more or less unaffected. And now we see vigilante mobs with guns being encouraged.

Heyo I think is in Germany. I am in the UK. We know our history. Everybody always thinks it can't happen here, we're different, it will blow over. I'm not saying we predict civil war or an authoritarian takeover, but to someone sitting in Europe neither outcome is out of the question.

 

[exchemist]

I like "fascetiously". Sort of like facetiously, but with a bit of a Heil Hitler thrown in.

Slightly tangentially, @Heyo 's post put me in mind, for just a moment, of these stock stereotypes in war films:

 

[Howard Is]

As for Italia and Deutschland, we are de facto US military colonies since 1945 so the US cannot declare war on themselves....

 

[Howard Is]

the US cannot declare war on themselves..

I dunno .... comes the New Year ...

 

[Stevicus]

In the hypothetical situation that seems more and more probable that Donald Trump loses the election and refuses to step down, do Germany, Italy and Japan have the moral obligation to restore democracy in the US? After all, that is what the US helped to do to us and pretended to do in other countries all over the world.

Our involvement in WW2 was mainly due to Axis aggression against their neighbors. Even France and the UK didn't declare war on Germany until 1939. If the goal was to restore democracy, they would have declared war in 1933 (or in 1922 against Italy).

If we go down the same path of history, we'd have to have an Anschluss with Canada first, then an invasion of Mexico next. Then we will have a conference in Munich where Trump can promise never to invade other countries again, but if he does, then you've got the green light to declare war.

Thing is, to oppose fascism in the U.S. means opposing capitalism, but our love of money and profit has trumped our love of freedom. Even other countries such as yours have benefited from capitalism, so any outside intervention in U.S. politics will be seen as some kind of international corporate venture to make the rich richer and the poor poorer. It's never been about any higher, noble causes such as "freedom" or "democracy."

 

[Howard Is]

Are you sure this shouldn't be in 'Jokes'?

That’s what I ask myself every time I hear Trump speak.

 

[Polymath257]

To be serious for a moment, it may be that people living in the USA don't fully realise the degree to which people outside are shocked and appalled by the undermining of the institutions of democracy that seems to be occurring under this president. Almost every institution of the state has been subverted, using the power of the presidency to sack or sideline professionals and replace them with yes-men, family members or people manifestly unqualified for the job but who are loyal. It seems to apply to everything, from the EPA and CDC to the CIA and, most alarmingly of all, the judiciary. The military seems to the one institution that has been more or less unaffected. And now we see vigilante mobs with guns being encouraged.

Heyo I think is in Germany. I am in the UK. We know our history. Everybody always thinks it can't happen here, we're different, it will blow over. I'm not saying we predict civil war or an authoritarian takeover, but to someone sitting in Europe neither outcome is out of the question.

Believe me. Some of us in the US do see what is going on and are appalled by what we see. But, for some reason, even when we speak out, we are ignored and ridiculed.

I'm at the place where I am seriously looking into immigration/political asylum.