Do the Jews, Christians and Muslims worship the same God....?

[SethZaddik]

Let me simplify this for the person who doesn't know history and can't accept that without Islam Europe would have remained in the Dark Ages for much longer.

Islamic Golden Age=Christian Dark Ages.

Chronologically speaking. The first Europeans to see the Islamic Empire and the paradise it was were in awe, they had come from a land of filth without education.

Islam had Universities, hospitals, invented Algebra, Algorithms, Calculus, Alchemy/Chemistry, invented lenses, performed surgeries and mastered astronomy.

I can laugh when a fool has been so indoctrinated with propaganda says he/she thinks Muslims can't be believed, we/they are scrupulously honest people.

The funniest part is I know I speak the truth, that a person who speaks the truth is considered by (a fool) unbelievable because of my religion is as funny as it is pathetic.

 

[SethZaddik]

Forgive me, @SethZaddik but I have learned to take the claims of Muslims with several boxes of salt. If you could kindly cite a few non-Muslim sources that verify you claim, I'd appreciate it.

So what are your reasons for erroneously believing you can't believe a Muslim?

Is it racial, because I am a white American?

Or do you just distrust 1.5 billion people because you are that gullible and susceptible to propaganda designed to vilify and demean Islam at every chance?

Because you and the people responsible for programming you and denying you a proper education of world history are who you should be suspicious of.

Not me, I speak the truth and it is easy to verify. You should be mad that you didn't know this fact of history, not that it is true.

Because you look ridiculous trying to deny legitimate history. That is, to anyone who actually KNOWS history.

 

[SethZaddik]

Europe thought legitimate science was magic and sorcery while Muslims were educated in the sciences they had perfected and developed.

The funny thing is that the early Church Fathers ridiculed the same philosophy and science that Islam embraced and by later extension directly from Muslim teachers, Church Fathers had little choice but to embrace the science of the Muslims.

It's ironic that Algebra was invented or mastered by Arabs and Muslims and is now used to guide missiles into people's houses in the Middle East.

 

[J2hapydna]

What you are describing is the innovation of various scholars over the years. As with all things in Islam, there are, no doubt, many other scholars who dispute these "liberal" views. The thing you are not telling us is that no one person or group speaks for Islam, period. Full Stop.

I believe that is how Islam was originally practiced in the Axumite Empire in the days when MP was alive. Even shariaists agree that Islam in the Meccan period (early period) was peaceful. The shariaists however claim that in the later (Medina period) it changed. So I don't think the original can ever be described as an "innovation".

The real question is did MP change the message or did the Ummayds misunderstand and create an innovation? No scholars have ever suggested that Najashi's religion was an innovation. If anything they suggest it was a more primitive "earlier" form of Islam.

Also, I do agree with you that the Orthodoxy persecuted bright individual Muslims who disagreed with them. Also you are right, It was these bright Muslims who influenced the west. Unfortunately Seth has not taken the time to read your posts and notice that in fact you agree with this point of view

Averroism - By Movement / School - The Basics of Philosophy

 

[YmirGF]

I believe that is how Islam was originally practiced in the Axumite Empire in the days when MP was alive. Even shariaists agree that Islam in the Meccan period (early period) was peaceful. The shariaists however claim that in the later (Medina period) it changed. So I don't think the original can ever be described as an "innovation".

The real question is did MP change the message or did the Ummayds misunderstand and create an innovation? No scholars have ever suggested that Najashi's religion was an innovation. If anything they suggest it was a more primitive "earlier" form of Islam.

Also, I do agree with you that the Orthodoxy persecuted bright individual Muslims who disagreed with them. Also you are right, It was these bright Muslims who influenced the west. Unfortunately Seth has not taken the time to read your posts and notice that in fact you agree with this point of view

Averroism - By Movement / School - The Basics of Philosophy

Thank you, @J2hapydna ...

Oh, and for the record, @SethZaddik, I have a very good grasp of history. In regards to not trusting Muslim's to tell me the honest truth. It is just an indelible point that has been made for me countless times over the years. The problem is that all too many Muslims one runs into on the Net are not terribly knowledgeable or particularly good communicators - for whatever reason.

 

[Spirit_Warrior]

Let me simplify this for the person who doesn't know history and can't accept that without Islam Europe would have remained in the Dark Ages for much longer.

Islamic Golden Age=Christian Dark Ages.

Chronologically speaking. The first Europeans to see the Islamic Empire and the paradise it was were in awe, they had come from a land of filth without education.

Islam had Universities, hospitals, invented Algebra, Algorithms, Calculus, Alchemy/Chemistry, invented lenses, performed surgeries and mastered astronomy.

I can laugh when a fool has been so indoctrinated with propaganda says he/she thinks Muslims can't be believed, we/they are scrupulously honest people.

The funniest part is I know I speak the truth, that a person who speaks the truth is considered by (a fool) unbelievable because of my religion is as funny as it is pathetic.

Just a few corrections to your history. I am not undermining the scientific achievements of the Arabs, which were significant, but many of the first you claim here were not first. India had universities and hospitals in 600BCE, and Persia too had hospitals in the Sassanian empire. Mathematics flourished in India and Greece, and much of Algebra, Geometry, Arithmetic and Calculus was developed, the Arabs adopted the same zero based decimal systems of Indians. The first known Calculus using differential equations appears much later in India in the late medieval period. Astronomy too was developed by India and Greece, with India developing the most mathematically precise model in about 500CE. Chemistry was significantly developed in India, and this was acknowledged by Arab historians themselves.

The Arabs made significant advances in science, but they were the beneficiaries of previous developments in science by India and Greece. The Arabs had translated all the scientific literature they could find in fields as diverse as medicine, mathematics, engineering, physics, chemistry and astronomy from them and they built upon it.

 

[SethZaddik]

Just a few corrections to your history. I am not undermining the scientific achievements of the Arabs, which were significant, but many of the first you claim here were not first. India had universities and hospitals in 600BCE, and Persia too had hospitals in the Sassanian empire. Mathematics flourished in India and Greece, and much of Algebra, Geometry, Arithmetic and Calculus was developed, the Arabs adopted the same zero based decimal systems of Indians. The first known Calculus using differential equations appears much later in India in the late medieval period. Astronomy too was developed by India and Greece, with India developing the most mathematically precise model in about 500CE. Chemistry was significantly developed in India, and this was acknowledged by Arab historians themselves.

The Arabs made significant advances in science, but they were the beneficiaries of previous developments in science by India and Greece. The Arabs had translated all the scientific literature they could find in fields as diverse as medicine, mathematics, engineering, physics, chemistry and astronomy from them and they built upon it.

Well that is great and I am not undemining your not undermining the scientific achievements of the Muslims.

Had you only paid closer attention you would have noticed, "Invented or perfected" "Greek philosophy and science" "Indian mathematics."

So I acknowledged the sources that inspired the Muslims to advance science and invent many things in science including modern science, medicines and surgeries, the first hospitals, etc. Algorithms, Calculus, anything with al in it, if a science, is probably derived from Islamic science.

I acknowledged the facts quite willingly as it shows the willingness of Muslims to learn beyond religious teachings, something Christianity ridiculed until they SAW the Islamic civilizations.

Then it was time to pillage, and pillage they did but for a short time and doing little damage to Islam.

You didn't acknowledge that I acknowledged it, probably so you could look like you "corrected" me, but ya didn't.

I was correct to begin with and you need to think before you speak, make sure I didn't do what you say I didn't do.

Because I did and have been for some time.

Pay attention and don't be so excited to correct someone who both knows what you said...and ACTUALLY DID say it already.

Now you just look silly.

But it is the wages of erroneous assumptions, you didn't even bother to quote me so you very well could have known that I gave credit to Greece and India, that part of my point was Christianity ridiculed science and Islam advanced civilization by doing the opposite.

I hope your two likes make up for the Intellectual defeat that is your's, by claiming, assuming or otherwise saying that I didn't credit the sources of Islamic science you made yourself look like a fool, liar or one who doesn't pay attention or care about the truth.

Thanks for "correcting" me, I enjoyed showing how little you have paid attention to my comments and that you focused on one specific without looking to see if I ever gave due credit to Greece and India.

More concerned with looking intelligent than with what I ACTUALLY said, saying I didn't give credit is a lie, whether because you are too lazy to check my previous comments or another reason, it's a lie.

Have a nice day! Salaam.

 

[J2hapydna]

Let's also not forget the great contributions made by the Chinese and African / Egyptian empires and civilizations

Also as far as Mecca and Medina etc and it's people are concerned, they were responsible for creating Orthodox Islam, but not much else. These cities were not the center of any great ancient civilization. They existed in a very harsh climate on the border of the African Ethiopian / Egyptian and Asiatic Sassanid / Assyrian Empires. The only major scholarly contribution that has emerged from these cities is the very complex, puzzling, delicious and beautifully written Quran. The only problem is that even this text doesn't appear to be the work of someone who lived in this society culture or people. Many experts point out that the sophistication of the language structure and content is completely different than what appears in the vulgar Hadith and Sira texts that piggy back the Quran

Also, when we talk about great universities libraries and hospitals of the Islamic empire, we are usually talking about institutions centered in places such as Egypt, Syria, Spain, Delhi, Babylon, Central Asia and Persia and not the works of people in the southern Arab cities of Mecca and Medina.

On the other hand I don't want to demonize or trivialize southern Arabia and it's people. The DNA studies appear to suggest that the current occupants of southern Arabia were a very small band of people who migrated to the region about 2,000 - 2,500 years ago. So these cities are not the center of continuous human existence for 10s of thousands of years like Europe, China and India etc. As such more shouldn't be expected from them

 

[SethZaddik]

Let's also not forget the great contributions made by the Chinese and African / Egyptian empires and civilizations

Also as far as Mecca and Medina etc and it's people are concerned, they were responsible for creating Orthodox Islam, but not much else. These cities were not the center of any great ancient civilization. They existed in a very harsh climate on the border of the African Ethiopian / Egyptian and Asiatic Sassanid / Assyrian Empires. The only major scholarly contribution that has emerged from these cities is the very complex, puzzling, delicious and beautifully written Quran. The only problem is that even this text doesn't appear to be the work of someone who lived in this society culture or people. Many experts point out that the sophistication of the language structure and content is completely different than what appears in the vulgar Hadith and Sira texts that piggy back the Quran

Also, when we talk about great universities libraries and hospitals of the Islamic empire, we are usually talking about institutions centered in places such as Egypt, Syria, Spain, Delhi, Babylon, Central Asia and Persia and not the works of people in the southern Arab cities of Mecca and Medina.

On the other hand I don't want to demonize or trivialize southern Arabia and it's people. The DNA studies appear to suggest that the current occupants of southern Arabia were a very small band of people who migrated to the region about 2,000 - 2,500 years ago. So these cities are not the center of continuous human existence for 10s of thousands of years like Europe, China and India etc. As such more shouldn't be expected from them

Yes, absolutely, I certainly don't mean to say Islam invented everything.

It just acquired old, vast amounts of knowledge from far and wide, and perfected many, invented many, and got the modern ball rolling.

But before and after many great civilizations from Egypt to Babylon, Persia, India, Greece and before Catholicism Rome, contributed to technology and sciences.

Alchemy, the source of modern scientific chemistry, was not the hoodoo voodoo it was thought to be to the Arabs, although some did do some things of that nature with it it was not popular. Medicine and other legitimate chemical sciences were also practiced and more frequently.

But Al Kehemet or Alchemy means, literally, "From (Ham, Chem) Egypt."

So it must have been acknowledged that it was developed in Egypt and learned by Muslims later, developed further.

Mathematics from India, Paper and other things from China, Muslims went far and wide like the Greeks and did what they did, aquire the knowledge of the world.

But they are far from the only civilization to do so, for sure, they just rivalled Rome and Greece before them, it was their turn.

 

[J2hapydna]

Seth, I can tell you don't have Orthodox views. So how do you prefer to describe yourself, as a Sufi or Quranist or Mutazalite or deist or Ahmadi or what?

 

[Spirit_Warrior]

Had you only paid closer attention you would have noticed, "Invented or perfected" "Greek philosophy and science" "Indian mathematics."

So I acknowledged the sources that inspired the Muslims to advance science and invent many things in science including modern science, medicines and surgeries, the first hospitals, etc. Algorithms, Calculus, anything with al in it, if a science, is probably derived from Islamic science.

The problem I am having with your representation is with the word "perfected" If it was already perfect at the Islamic stage of science, then what was it at the Western modern stage, more than perfect? I think you it would serve you better to use the word "contributed" They contributed for sure to the development of science, which has a long history.

Some of the stuff you are crediting Arabs with were not in fact "perfected/invented/discovered" by Arabs. Like Calculus for example, the earliest known Calculus appears in 12th century with Bhakasara II: Bhāskara II - Wikipedia

Medicine and surgery too were based on largely on Indian and Greek texts. In particular the Indian compendiums of medicine and surgery, still the major textbooks of Indian medicine today, the Charaka and Sushrutha Samhita were translated into Arabic and were read by the leading Arabic physicians and surgeons:

Medicine in ancient India certainly had spread its influence on Arabic medicine. There are striking similarities between the surgical instruments depicted as wall sculpture in the temple of Kom Ombo in Egypt and those described by Susruta. Outside India the first translation of Susruta Samhita appeared in Arabic as Kitab-i-Susrud by Abil Saibial in the 8th century AD. Sir William Hunter stated – “Arabic medicine was founded on translations from Sanskrit treatises and in turn European medicine down to the 7th century was based on the Latin versions of those Arabic translations of Hindu medicine”.

Urology in ancient India


In the eighth century A.D., ‘Sushruta Samhita' was translated into Arabic as Kitab-Shaw Shoon-a-Hindi and Kitab-i-Susrud. The translation of ‘Sushruta Samhita' was ordered by the Caliph Mansur (A.D.753 -774).11 One of the most important documents in connection with ancient Indian medicine is the Bower Manuscript, a birch-bark medical treatise discovered in Kuchar (in Eastern Turkistan), dated around AD 450 and is housed in the Oxford University library.12 The first European translation of ‘Sushruta Samhita' was published by Hessler in Latin and into German by Muller in the early 19th century. The first complete English translation was done by Kaviraj Kunja Lal Bhishagratna in three volumes in 1907 at Calcutta.1

The treatise's insight, accuracy and detail of the surgical descriptions are most impressive. In the book's 184 chapters, 1,120 conditions are listed, including injuries and illnesses relating to ageing and mental illness. The compendium of Sushruta includes many chapters on the training and practice of surgeons. The Sushruta Samhita describes over 120 surgical instruments (Figure-3), 5,13 300 surgical procedures and classifies human surgery in 8 categories.

Internet Scientific Publications​

Susrutha Samhtia was more influential on modern surgery and medicine than Arab textbooks were, considering that the modern plastic surgery techniques are based on it. So this puts into your question whether the Arabs "perfected it" or did they add anything to it. I think you need to specifically show which areas they "perfected" and what were their innovations, because it seems a lot of these you seem to have attributed to them

I acknowledged the facts quite willingly as it shows the willingness of Muslims to learn beyond religious teachings, something Christianity ridiculed until they SAW the Islamic civilizations.

I think this is wrong too. Early science in the modern age was promoted by Christians at Christian monasteries e.g. The monk Roger Bacon, the early medieval philosopher of science, promoted the inductive experimental method in Alhazan's book of optics. The Indian decimal system, which was known to the Europeans via the Arabs, hence called the Arabic numerals, was popularised by Fibbocani in Italy. In this the way the floodgates for science were opened by Europe allowing the science to flow from Arabia, which included the existing scientific texts they had preserved from India, Greece and their works. Copernicus is another Christian scientist who studied the data from the Astronomical observatories and the Indian models like Aryabhatta which is the earliest precursor to the Heliocentric model, before he went onto declare his own Heliocentric model.

Your mistake is trying to attribute all science or least most of it to one civilisation, rather than seeing it as a body of continuous knowledge developing over some 10,000 years, to which several civilisations contributed: Sumerian, Babylonian, Indian, Chinese, Greek, Roman, Egyptian.

 

[hughwatt]

"Do the Jews, Christians and Muslims worship the same God....?"

Not at all. Muhammad's god was well known before he was even born and was worshipped by his father, Abdullah ibn Abdul Muttalib. It is acknowledged by Muslims Abdullah ibn Abdul Muttalib was an idolater who worshipped the chief idol of that day which we come to know today as Allah.

 

[Lucida Sidera]

In the historical/erudict perspective I see them as branches of the same religion. They had many times conflicts which made their followers to not want to be identified, which is quite ok to be totally respected in many contexts.
But from a historical/outsider perspective is really difficult to not see them as developments of the same beliefs.