Do trans-activists allow for trans-moderates?

[icehorse]

I don't know if "trans-moderate" is an accepted term or not?

But I'll take a whack at what it means to me.

A "trans-moderate":

- is empathetic towards people who have gender or body dysphoria
- supports the creation of public facilities for trans people
- supports the idea of "open" categories for competitions, sports and otherwise.
- supports ADULTS who chose to modify their bodies
- supports fair treatment for trans people

- DOES NOT agree that therapists should "affirm" anything. That's not therapy
- DOES NOT agree that children and adolescents should be told how to identify
- DOES NOT agree that children and adolescents should be subjected to surgeries or homones
- DOES NOT agree that trans-women are women
- DOES NOT agree that sex is a social construct
- DOES NOT agree that differences in opinion on these matters is violence
- DOES NOT agree that arbitrarily declared pronouns are harmless

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't know if "trans-moderate" is an accepted term or not?

But I'll take a whack at what it means to me.

A "trans-moderate":

- is empathetic towards people who have gender or body dysphoria
- supports the creation of public facilities for trans people
- supports the idea of "open" categories for competitions, sports and otherwise.
- supports ADULTS who chose to modify their bodies
- supports fair treatment for trans people

- DOES NOT agree that therapists should "affirm" anything. That's not therapy
- DOES NOT agree that children and adolescents should be told how to identify
- DOES NOT agree that children and adolescents should be subjected to surgeries or homones hormones
- DOES NOT agree that trans-women are women
- DOES NOT agree that sex is a social construct
- DOES NOT agree that differences in opinion on these matters is violence
- DOES NOT agree that arbitrarily declared pronouns are harmless

Your "DOES NOT" items aren't clear, eg the underlined one....
Does "be subjected to" mean done without consent,
or that its done for them because they want it?

 

[icehorse]

Your "DOES NOT" items aren't clear, eg the underlined one....
Does "be subjected to" mean done without consent,
or that its done for them because they want it?

The odds of various forms of coercion are extremely high.

 

[Revoltingest]

The odds of various forms of coercion are extremely high.

On what basis do you claim that?
I'm just not clear on what kind of restrictions
you want imposed upon trans-adolescents.

The only group I see telling trans folk how to
identify is the anti-trans faction. Is that whom
you're addressing in that line?

 

[icehorse]

On what basis do you claim that?
I'm just not clear on what kind of restrictions
you want imposed upon trans-adolescents.

The only group I see telling trans folk how to
identify is the anti-trans faction. Is that whom
you're addressing in that line?

How about you trying to steel man my claim?

Stepping back, there is a pattern I see frequently on RF:

A poster wants to discuss topic X.
Another poster either is ignorant of X or feigns ignorance, and demands evidence.

 

[Revoltingest]

How about you trying to steel man my claim?

I don't know what that means.

Stepping back, there is a pattern I see frequently on RF:

A poster wants to discuss topic X.
Another poster either is ignorant of X or feigns ignorance, and demands evidence.

You posted this in a <debate> forum,
so it's reasonable for me to....
- Ask for clarification of unclear claims.
- Ask for the basis for claims.
- To disagree <--- Which I can't do yet because of ambiguity.

This comes to mind....
If'n ya canna take the heat, stay out'a the kitchen.

 

[metis]

Should trans-moderates take trans-portation?

 

[icehorse]

I don't know what that means.

You posted this in a <debate> forum,
so it's reasonable for me to....
- Ask for clarification of unclear claims.
- Ask for the basis for claims.
- To disagree <--- Which I can't do yet because of ambiguity.

This comes to mind....
If'n ya canna take the heat, stay out'a the kitchen.

Understood. But the opposite side of the coin can be things like sea-lioning.

I guess the question comes down to "what's a reasonable assumption of common knowledge?" If I start a thread debating the merits of various types of locomotive power for vehicles, it's not reasonable to have to answer "what are vehicles?" sorts of questions.

 

[Callisto]

Should trans-moderates take trans-portation?

Though transfixed by your question, the feeling was transitory.

 

[Revoltingest]

Understood. But the opposite side of the coin can be things like sea-lioning.

I guess the question comes down to "what's a reasonable assumption of common knowledge?" If I start a thread debating the merits of various types of locomotive power for vehicles, it's not reasonable to have to answer "what are vehicles?" sorts of questions.

So many words.
No clarification.
As for your claim of trolling...

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Though transfixed by your question, the feeling was transitory.

Feeling trans-formed?

 

[Guitar's Cry]

I don't know if "trans-moderate" is an accepted term or not?

But I'll take a whack at what it means to me.

A "trans-moderate":

- is empathetic towards people who have gender or body dysphoria
- supports the creation of public facilities for trans people
- supports the idea of "open" categories for competitions, sports and otherwise.
- supports ADULTS who chose to modify their bodies
- supports fair treatment for trans people

- DOES NOT agree that therapists should "affirm" anything. That's not therapy
- DOES NOT agree that children and adolescents should be told how to identify
- DOES NOT agree that children and adolescents should be subjected to surgeries or homones
- DOES NOT agree that trans-women are women
- DOES NOT agree that sex is a social construct
- DOES NOT agree that differences in opinion on these matters is violence
- DOES NOT agree that arbitrarily declared pronouns are harmless

I think the idea of a spectrum of support makes sense, but I am not sure it works if some of the "does nots" are strawmen designed to stigmatize the community or don't make sense with the given evidence and experience of transfolks.

 

[Callisto]

Feeling trans-formed?

Practically transmogrified.

 

[icehorse]

So many words.
No clarification.
As for your claim of trolling...

I didn't claim you were trolling, I gave an example of a trolling technique. Big difference, too subtle for you?

So another way I could respond is to say: @Revoltingest - do you need me to start at square one, educating you on this complex topic?

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Practically transmogrified.

Trans-cendent, you may say?

 

[icehorse]

I think the idea of a spectrum of support makes sense, but I am not sure it works if some of the "does nots" are strawmen designed to stigmatize the community or don't make sense with the given evidence and experience of transfolks.

I'm fine with a more nuanced discussion / debate! As I said, I was just "taking a whack at it"

 

[Revoltingest]

I didn't claim you were trolling....

Either you don't understand the term you used or....nah, not going there.

Sealioning - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Excerpted...
Sealioning (also sea-lioning and sea lioning) is a type of trolling or harassment that consists of pursuing people with relentless requests for evidence, often tangential or previously addressed....

....do you need me to start at square one, educating you on this complex topic?

It appears that you don't recognize the ambiguity
of your own post, & are unable to clarify them.
So you blame others for your own failure.

 

[Yerda]

- DOES NOT agree that trans-women are women

Is this a moderate position?

 

[Revoltingest]

Is this a moderate position?

To vicious anti-trans fundies,
it might be seen as moderate.
I don't get what appears to be
hatred &/or fear of trans folk.
Let'm be.

 

[Left Coast]

- DOES NOT agree that therapists should "affirm" anything. That's not therapy

Where did you get this idea about what therapy is or isn't?

- DOES NOT agree that children and adolescents should be told how to identify

So you oppose parents insisting to their children that they're straight or cis, and allowing them to identify as they please?

- DOES NOT agree that children and adolescents should be subjected to surgeries or homones

Children are treated with surgeries and hormones all the time. If you're against all surgery for kids, youre gonna have a lot of dead kids on your hands.

- DOES NOT agree that differences in opinion on these matters is violence
- DOES NOT agree that arbitrarily declared pronouns are harmless

These two seem contradictory. Are pronouns you don't like just differences of opinion, which are not violence, or are they somehow harmful?