Do We Choose Our Beliefs?

[PureX]

Several times recently in conversations with theists, they have said things about choosing what we believe. It's almost as though in their minds beliefs are like clothes in the closet. I go to the closet, and I could pick the red t shirt or the green t shirt, so I'll pick the red. Or perhaps, I know my significant other likes the red more than the green, so I'll pick the red one to please him.

In my experience, this is not how belief works at all.

This is exactly how it works once you understand that beliefs are not truth, they are one's OPINION regarding what is the truth. The only reason people think they can't change their opinion regarding what is true and what isn't is that they blindly assume that to believe something is true means that it is true. And therefor must be treated as if it were undoubtedly true. Once one let's go of this delusion that belief must be treated as truth, then beliefs become opinions, again. And those can change however and why ever we choose, according whatever criteria we choose to apply.

If to believe means to be convinced something is true or real, then we (couldn't) choose our beliefs at all.[/QUOTE}I agree with you. And that is exactly the false presumption that causes some people to confuse their beliefs with truth, and thereby forfeit control over their ability to choose what they believe.
What do you think? Do we choose our beliefs?

Yes, though not always consciously.

 

[Curious George]

Your statement was not in the truth.

Sure it was. My statement was that x would be a better analogy than the one provided by your question. How was that not in the truth?

 

[Agnostisch]

What you cannot see.

I could say Yes, that we can choose what to believe in. Maybe exceptions are those who are brainwashed. Whatever others might try us to believe, it is still in ourselves who can decide.

 

[Trailblazer]

beliefs are not truth, they are one's OPINION regarding what is the truth

Why can't beliefs be true?

 

[Trailblazer]

I could say Yes, that we can choose what to believe in. Maybe exceptions are those who are brainwashed. Whatever others might try us to believe, it is still in ourselves who can decide.

Agnostisch said: New I am puzzled about this 'belief' concept. There is nothing in my life that I need to believe in......... What's to believe?

Trailblazer said: What you cannot see.

I was not saying that you can choose to believe. I was just saying that there is something to believe that you cannot see.
Whether you believe it or not is your choice, although it is not necessarily a choice you will be able to make.

 

[PureX]

Why can't beliefs be true?

They can be, but we can't know them to be. So to us, they remain opinions on truth, not knowledge of truth, as some of us blindly presume.

 

[Left Coast]

This is exactly how it works once you understand that beliefs are not truth, they are one's OPINION regarding what is the truth. The only reason people think they can't change their opinion regarding what is true and what isn't is that they blindly assume that to believe something is true means that it is true. And therefor must be treated as if it were undoubtedly true. Once one let's go of this delusion that belief must be treated as truth, then beliefs become opinions, again. And those can change however and why ever we choose, according whatever criteria we choose to apply.

To be clear, my argument is not that people's minds can't change.

Yes, though not always consciously.

You're operating according to completely different definitions of "believe" and "choose" than what I outlined in this thread. So it makes sense that you come to different conclusions.

 

[Trailblazer]

They can be, but we can't know them to be. So to us, they remain opinions on truth, not knowledge of truth, as some of us blindly presume.

I would say that we cannot prove them to be the truth so they are not facts, but we can still know them to be true because all knowledge is not based on facts we can prove. That said, we should never claim they are true and expect others to believe they are true because we cannot prove they are true since claims require proof. But we can still say we know they are true because certitude is an inner knowing, and nobody can take our certitude away from us because it isn't their to take.

knowledge;
1. facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject.
2. awareness or familiarity gained by experience of a fact or situation.
knowledge means - Google Search

 

[izzy88]

Several times recently in conversations with theists, they have said things about choosing what we believe. It's almost as though in their minds beliefs are like clothes in the closet. I go to the closet, and I could pick the red t shirt or the green t shirt, so I'll pick the red. Or perhaps, I know my significant other likes the red more than the green, so I'll pick the red one to please him.

In my experience, this is not how belief works at all. If to believe means to be convinced something is true or real, then we don't choose our beliefs at all. We are presented with evidence and whatever interpretation of that evidence is most convincing to us is what we believe. We can't stop believing that until something intervenes - we see new evidence, or we realize our thought process was illogical before, etc. I can't simply wake up and choose a different belief this morning. I am genuinely convinced of what I believe (and don't).

What do you think? Do we choose our beliefs?

I'd say you're spot on in your description of belief and how we come to believe things. I think people often mix up the concept of belief with the concept of faith; faith is an act of the will, where belief is indeed passive.

Although, what you choose to place your faith in will inevitably affect what you believe, so I suppose we do have some control over our beliefs - it's just indirect. We don't choose what we believe, but what we believe can change as a result of our choices.

 

[PureX]

To be clear, my argument is not that people's minds can't change.

Then your 'argument' is that we can't (because we won't) defy our own reasoning: the reasoning we used to choose the opinion of truth that we currently hold. We have to be forced to do so by some outside circumstance, if it is to be changed

Right?

But isn't that, in itself, a choice we are making? A choice that we could reject at any time? After all, there is no force outside of ourselves insisting that we must follow our current course of reasoning, supporting our current opinion on what is 'the truth'. So the fact that we are doing so must be our choice, right?

You're operating according to completely different definitions of "believe" and "choose" than what I outlined in this thread. So it makes sense that you come to different conclusions.

How is a belief anything other than our opinion of what is the truth, based on how we reasoned it to be so? And since you have already admitted that we can "change our minds", I don't see how you determined that there is no choice involved in that change. Can you explain this?

 

[Curious George]

Then your 'argument' is that we can't (because we won't) defy our own reasoning: the reasoning we used to choose the opinion of truth that we currently hold. We have to be forced to do so by some outside circumstance, if it is to be changed

Right?

But isn't that, in itself, a choice we are making? A choice that we could reject at any time? After all, there is no force outside of ourselves insisting that we must follow our current course of reasoning, supporting our current opinion on what is 'the truth'. So the fact that we are doing so must be our choice, right?
How is a belief anything other than our opinion of what is the truth, based on how we reasoned it to be so? And since you have already admitted that we can "change our minds", I don't see how you determined that there is no choice involved in that change. Can you explain this?

I think you are confusing entertainment of a proposition until it sticks with actual belief. Sometimes this works other times it may not, that in itself is proof that belief is outside of our control.

 

[PureX]

I would say that we cannot prove them to be the truth so they are not facts, but we can still know them to be true because all knowledge is not based on facts we can prove. That said, we should never claim they are true and expect others to believe they are true because we cannot prove they are true since claims require proof. But we can still say we know they are true because certitude is an inner knowing, and nobody can take our certitude away from us because it isn't their to take.

knowledge;
1. facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject.
2. awareness or familiarity gained by experience of a fact or situation.
knowledge means - Google Search

What you seem to be saying is that our experience is relative (to us), our understanding is relative (to us), so our knowledge is relative (to us). Relative knowledge cannot logically be called "truth" even though we often consider it to be true, and claim it to be. So others should not accept our 'truth' as their 'truth', or our truth claims as 'the truth'.

I agree with this.

 

[PureX]

I think you are confusing entertainment of a belief until it sticks with actual belief. Sometimes this works other times it may not, that in itself is proof that belief is outside of our control.

The relative and variable nature of our 'certitude' would indicate just the opposite, I think. That our believed truth is not certain is what allows for the possibility of an alternative choice.

 

[Curious George]

The relative and variable nature of our 'certitude' would indicate just the opposite, I think. That our believed truth is not certain is what allows for the possibility of an alternative choice.

I don't buy it. Go to you kitchen table and then believe that it is not there. See how long you can entertain that belief. Let me know how it works out.

And for our next test, we will see if you can believe that we don't choose what to believe.

 

[MNoBody]

What do you think? Do we choose our beliefs?

or, do beliefs chose us
[ in the sense that they are "imposed" by something outside of the self,
and they just get absorbed as if by osmosis because the culture you are in does it.]

we make choices on multiple choice quizzes,
but, what if the answer I would rather choose isn't on the list?
that is a limited choice option, so not really reflecting optimal choice options.

Besides, how is it our conscious mind doing any of this really at all,
since the subconscious mind is approx. 97% the motivator behind all actions and we didn't have much of anything to do with actually thinking about that whatsoever.... typically.

 

[Left Coast]

Then your 'argument' is that we can't (because we won't) defy our own reasoning: the reasoning we used to choose the opinion of truth that we currently hold. We have to be forced to do so by some outside circumstance, if it is to be changed

Right?

But isn't that, in itself, a choice we are making? A choice that we could reject at any time? After all, there is no force outside of ourselves insisting that we must follow our current course of reasoning, supporting our current opinion on what is 'the truth'. So the fact that we are doing so must be our choice, right?
How is a belief anything other than our opinion of what is the truth, based on how we reasoned it to be so? And since you have already admitted that we can "change our minds", I don't see how you determined that there is no choice involved in that change. Can you explain this?

Did you read through this thread? Because I've gone through this now several times with others. This thread got spontaneously resurrected today, but has been around a while.

I don't "choose," in any meaningful sense of the word, to believe the Earth is round. I can't just choose to believe the Earth is flat today, if "belief" means to be convinced something is actually true. I am convinced the Earth is round because of the evidence for that proposition, and against the proposition that it's flat. Barring new evidence, or someone pointing out an error in my thinking or analysis of the evidence, I can't simply "choose" to believe other than what I do.

Does that help you understand my point?

 

[Trailblazer]

What you seem to be saying is that our experience is relative (to us), our understanding is relative (to us), so our knowledge is relative (to us). Relative knowledge cannot logically be called "truth" even though we often consider it to be true, and claim it to be. So others should not accept our 'truth' as their 'truth', or our truth claims as 'the truth'.

I agree with this.

No I am not saying that truth is relative to us. Truth is universal and we either find it or fail to do so.

But I agree that others should not accept our 'truth' as their 'truth', or our truth claims as 'the truth'. I believe that everyone should do their own independent investigation of truth and accept what they determine is true.

 

[Left Coast]

I'd say you're spot on in your description of belief and how we come to believe things. I think people often mix up the concept of belief with the concept of faith; faith is an act of the will, where belief is indeed passive.

Although, what you choose to place your faith in will inevitably affect what you believe, so I suppose we do have some control over our beliefs - it's just indirect. We don't choose what we believe, but what we believe can change as a result of our choices.

This is an interesting distinction, because as you said I think the terms "belief" and "faith" are usually used interchangeably (Biblically, they're the same word as well).

So, what does it mean to choose to have faith in something, if it doesn't mean you think that thing is true/real? Would you ever put faith in something you didn't believe in?

 

[PureX]

Did you read through this thread? Because I've gone through this now several times with others. This thread got spontaneously resurrected today, but has been around a while.

I don't "choose," in any meaningful sense of the word, to believe the Earth is round. I can't just choose to believe the Earth is flat today, if "belief" means to be convinced something is actually true. I am convinced the Earth is round because of the evidence for that proposition, and against the proposition that it's flat. Barring new evidence, or someone pointing out an error in my thinking or analysis of the evidence, I can't simply "choose" to believe other than what I do.

Does that help you understand my point?

You can choose, you're just choosing not to.

 

[PureX]

No I am not saying that truth is relative to us. Truth is universal and we either find it or fail to do so.

We can't "find it" because we can't know that we have it even if we do. Our presumptions of having it are just that: presumptuous.