Do We Choose Our Beliefs?

[Left Coast]

You can choose, you're just choosing not to.

I don't see how.

 

[Trailblazer]

So, what does it mean to choose to have faith in something, if it doesn't mean you think that thing is true/real? Would you ever put faith in something you didn't believe in?

To me choosing to have faith means that even though the thing I have faith in cannot be proven to exist I choose to believe it anyway. Having faith in something does not mean I believe that thing is not true or real. I would not have faith in something I could not believe is true or real because I would consider that blind faith. .

For example, I believe that God is real and I believe that Baha'u'llah "really" received a Revelation from God, but I hold those beliefs based upon what 'I consider' to be good evidence, not on blind faith. By contrast, I do not believe there are pink elephants in my garage because there is no 'reason' to believe that since there is no evidence that indicates that is true.

 

[Trailblazer]

We can't "find it" because we can't know that we have it even if we do. Our presumptions of having it are just that: presumptuous.

I believe that we can find it and we can know we have it and I do not consider that presumptuous since we have a right to our own inner certitude as long as we do not impose it upon anyone else.

 

[izzy88]

This is an interesting distinction, because as you said I think the terms "belief" and "faith" are usually used interchangeably (Biblically, they're the same word as well).

So, what does it mean to choose to have faith in something, if it doesn't mean you think that thing is true/real? Would you ever put faith in something you didn't believe in?

Do you believe we have free will? (Forgive me if this has come up in a past discussion; my memory is truly awful)

 

[Left Coast]

To me choosing to have faith means that even though the thing I have faith in cannot be proven to exist I choose to believe it anyway. Having faith in something does not mean I believe that thing is not true or real. I would not have faith in something I could not believe is true or real because I would consider that blind faith. .

For example, I believe that God is real and I believe that Baha'u'llah "really" received a Revelation from God, but I hold those beliefs based upon what 'I consider' to be good evidence, not on blind faith. By contrast, I do not believe there are pink elephants in my garage because there is no 'reason' to believe that since there is no evidence that indicates that is true.

This, to me, makes belief and faith essentially synonymous, and leads me back to the original point that these things aren't chosen. You believe in the Bahai faith based on evidence that has convinced you its claims are likely true. You couldn't just toss that faith away today by choice, something would have to convince you you're incorrect or your belief is unfounded or irrational. Right?

 

[Left Coast]

Do you believe we have free will? (Forgive me if this has come up in a past discussion; my memory is truly awful)

No worries, I started this thread before you joined and it's been dead for a while.

It depends what the phrase "free will" means. I think we do have some degree of agency, but it's extremely limited and constrained in a bunch of different ways: genetics, upbringing, culture, education, psychological and neurological disorders, etc.

 

[Trailblazer]

This, to me, makes belief and faith essentially synonymous, and leads me back to the original point that these things aren't chosen. You believe in the Bahai faith based on evidence that has convinced you its claims are likely true. You couldn't just toss that faith away today by choice, something would have to convince you you're incorrect or your belief is unfounded or irrational. Right?

I put faith in what I believe so they are synonymous in that sense.
I do not have to have faith in what I can prove because it would be a fact.
No, I do not think that beliefs are chosen because you would have to be convinced by the evidence.

I believe in the Baha'i Faith based on evidence that has convinced me its claims are true; not likely true, because that would mean I don't really know they are true. I know they are true but not because I can prove they are true as a fact can be proven. I know they are true because I have inner certitude. There is no way I would give my whole life to a belief if I did not know it was true.

There was a time in my life when I was not 100% and during those years I did not give my life to the Baha'i Faith, I did lots of other things. Now I find that difficult to do, knowing what I know. I guess you could call that an occupational hazard. However, if it is true, which I am sure it is, my time could not be any better spent because it is like an investment, one that not only has returns in this life, but in the next life. The way I see it, what I do in this life has eternal consequences, so to me it is only logical to put my eggs in the right basket.

You are right, I couldn't just toss that faith away today by choice; something would have to convince me I am incorrect or that my belief is unfounded or irrational. I have challenged many people to prove that my belief is unfounded but that only ends up having the opposite effect when nobody is ever forthcoming. Not only that, but it often leads to further discussion which results in me digging up even more evidence. In fact, the primary reason I have so much certitude is because of people telling me "you I don't really have any evidence."

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't see how.

The only thing I believe you can choose is to be willing to look at the evidence. Whether you believe as a result of looking is another matter. That will all depend upon what you see in the next room.

“If a man were to declare, ‘There is a lamp in the next room which gives no light’, one hearer might be satisfied with his report, but a wiser man goes into the room to judge for himself, and behold, when he finds the light shining brilliantly in the lamp, he knows the truth!” Paris Talks, p. 103

 

[PureX]

I believe that we can find it and we can know we have it and I do not consider that presumptuous since we have a right to our own inner certitude as long as we do not impose it upon anyone else.

We can believe whatever we want. And we will. But believing we're right still doesn't make us right. It just makes us arrogant.

 

[Trailblazer]

This, to me, makes belief and faith essentially synonymous, and leads me back to the original point that these things aren't chosen. You believe in the Bahai faith based on evidence that has convinced you its claims are likely true. You couldn't just toss that faith away today by choice, something would have to convince you you're incorrect or your belief is unfounded or irrational. Right?

I wanted to add something I consider important. Speaking of belief and faith, I believe and have faith that God exists and that the Baha'i Faith is the truth. Believing that God exists does not require a lot of faith for me because I believe in Baha'u'llah and what He wrote about God. Believing that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God does not require a lot of faith because of the evidence.

However, where God is concerned, there are some gray areas. Where my faith is tested is in believing that God is All-Loving and He really cares about me, and that all will turn out in my best interest. I need a lot more faith to believe these things than the faith needed to believe that God exists or the faith needed to believe that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

We can believe whatever we want. And we will. But believing we're right still doesn't make us right. It just makes us arrogant.

You are right, believing we are right does not make us right, because we could be either right or wrong, logically speaking.

However, believing our religion is the truth is not about the believer, it is about the religion, so it does not make the believer arrogant.

Believing is a religion is the truth is not about being right, it is about inner certitude. It has nothing to do with anyone except the believer. Moreover, it is not saying that other people are wrong about their religion because more than one religion can be true.

 

[Left Coast]

We can believe whatever we want. And we will. But believing we're right still doesn't make us right. It just makes us arrogant.

So, you don't believe you're right that we can believe whatever we want? Or you do, but you believe you're arrogant?

 

[Milton Platt]

Several times recently in conversations with theists, they have said things about choosing what we believe. It's almost as though in their minds beliefs are like clothes in the closet. I go to the closet, and I could pick the red t shirt or the green t shirt, so I'll pick the red. Or perhaps, I know my significant other likes the red more than the green, so I'll pick the red one to please him.

In my experience, this is not how belief works at all. If to believe means to be convinced something is true or real, then we don't choose our beliefs at all. We are presented with evidence and whatever interpretation of that evidence is most convincing to us is what we believe. We can't stop believing that until something intervenes - we see new evidence, or we realize our thought process was illogical before, etc. I can't simply wake up and choose a different belief this morning. I am genuinely convinced of what I believe (and don't).

What do you think? Do we choose our beliefs?

You are correct. You can't believe something you are not convinced of for some reason, whether they are good reasons or bad reasons.

 

[MNoBody]

faith and belief from what i have read in the dictionaries can be used synonymously in modern english,
but in the case of ancient hebrew or greek or other languages which are used in these "sacred" texts these words are much different.
without faith it is impossible to please God, so It is certainly more than just a belief which is a guesstimation which someone has accepted.
Faith [IMO] is something much more than just static minded ratiocination and presumption.
just a short response as I am a bit tired from mulching most of the day.....making dirt is a lot of work

 

[Trailblazer]

faith and belief from what i have read in the dictionaries can be used synonymously in modern english,
but in the case of ancient hebrew or greek or other languages which are used in these "sacred" texts these words are much different.
without faith it is impossible to please God, so It is certainly more than just a belief which is a guesstimation which someone has accepted.
Faith [IMO] is something much more than just static minded ratiocination and presumption.
just a short response as I am a bit tired from mulching most of the day.....making dirt is a lot of work

Your mulching has not affected your cognitive abilities, I just wish you would come over and so some yard work at my place..

In light of the following verses I think that faith trumps belief. One has to have faith in their belief or it is useless.

Obviously, God wants our faith; otherwise He would prove He exists, because an omnipotent God could easily do that. It is too bad that atheists do not like to have faith as a requirement. I am just describing the lay of the land, I do not make the rules.

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

Matthew 17:20 So Jesus said to them, “Because of your unbelief;[a] for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.

Matthew 21:21 So Jesus answered and said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but also if you say to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ it will be done.

 

[izzy88]

It depends what the phrase "free will" means. I think we do have some degree of agency, but it's extremely limited and constrained in a bunch of different ways: genetics, upbringing, culture, education, psychological and neurological disorders, etc.

I'd say that's pretty much in line with what I believe, as well. Although there are a multitude of factors acting on us constantly which are ultimately out of our control, we can still at times (though not always) choose what action we want to take.

But that language may even be too strong; it's more like we can try our best to point ourselves in the right direction and hope that over time it makes us better and strengthens our will. Maybe think of it like captaining a sailboat: we're subject to the wind and the waves and the tides and the currents. We can make slight adjustments to the sails, but that's really all we have control over; everything else is out of our hands. All we can really do is try our best to move in the general direction of whatever port we've chosen.

This is what the Catechism says about our freedom:

1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one's own responsibility. By free will one shapes one's own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.

1733 The more one does what is good, the freer one becomes. There is no true freedom except in the service of what is good and just. The choice to disobey and do evil is an abuse of freedom and leads to "the slavery of sin."28

1734 Freedom makes man responsible for his acts to the extent that they are voluntary. Progress in virtue, knowledge of the good, and ascesis enhance the mastery of the will over its acts.

1735 Imputability and responsibility for an action can be diminished or even nullified by ignorance, inadvertence, duress, fear, habit, inordinate attachments, and other psychological or social factors.
-------

So, the way that I use the term "faith" is to describe the small portion of ourselves which we can control - the will. To combine what the Catechism says with my sailboat analogy, while we do not have control over most of the factors that influence where the boat goes, the one thing we can control is which port we're aiming at, and there are really only two ports: good and evil. And while there will be times when a storm comes and the direction we're sailing is totally out of our control, as long as we still have the desire to go to the good port, that's really all that matters.

God fully recognizes that most of what happens to us is out of our control, and it's virtually impossible for us to determine how much any given person is choosing something freely. All we need to do is desire the good - and if we can't even manage that, as long as we desire to desire the good, God will be able to help us.

That's what faith is. It's desiring to desire the good, for its own sake. It's trying our best to point the miniscule amount of control we have over ourselves in the right direction.

 

[PureX]

You are right, believing we are right does not make us right, because we could be either right or wrong, logically speaking.

However, believing our religion is the truth is not about the believer, it is about the religion, so it does not make the believer arrogant.

Believing is a religion is the truth is not about being right, it is about inner certitude. It has nothing to do with anyone except the believer. Moreover, it is not saying that other people are wrong about their religion because more than one religion can be true.

I get what you're saying, but I still have to disagree. Faith is not a lie: blindly assuming one is right when they cannot possibly know this to be so. Faith is hoping and trusting in what one wants to be true, even though one cannot know it to be true. Real faith acknowledges our doubt, and our skepticism. In fact, faith exists as our response to these. And I believe this is a very important distinction to be aware of: the distinction between faith, and blind pretense. Because faith is based on honesty, while blind pretense is based on dishonesty.

 

[PureX]

So, you don't believe you're right that we can believe whatever we want? Or you do, but you believe you're arrogant?

I observe, and I reason, and I choose to trust in these as I go. I don't really "believe in" anything, if you mean 'belief' to require a pretense of certainty. I live by faith, not a pretense of certainty. I know I can be wrong about anything at any time.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I get what you're saying, but I still have to disagree. Faith is not a lie: blindly assuming one is right when they cannot possibly know this to be so. Faith is hoping and trusting in what one wants to be true, even though one cannot know it to be true. Real faith acknowledges our doubt, and our skepticism. In fact, faith exists as our response to these. And I believe this is a very important distinction to be aware of: the distinction between faith, and blind pretense. Because faith is based on honesty, while blind pretense is based on dishonesty.

Perceived honesty perhaps, but one can't guarantee this.

 

[PureX]

Perceived honesty perhaps, but one can't guarantee this.

All the more reason for allowing doubt and skepticism to remain intact.