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Do we owe God for sin?
- Thread starter Eileen
- Start date
nazz
Doubting Thomas
None that I know of. We are owed the wages of sin which is death.
lovemuffin
τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
caveat: I think there is more to the incarnation, salvation, and sin than owing God, that is to say I don't think it's the only way in which those ideas are developed, but they are in the Bible:
- the lord's prayer in Matthew (forgive us our debts) parallels the Luke version (forgive us our sins) and so casts sin as a debt.
- "For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." (Mark 10:45)
- "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time." (2 Tim 2:5-6)
On the other hand you can find in Paul the idea also of Christ destroying the power of sin and death through his crucifixion and resurrection, which is not so much a question of merely appeasing God in some sense but of transforming human nature and deifying it through "life in Christ". For example Romans 6:
"For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus."
Or Romans 8:
- the lord's prayer in Matthew (forgive us our debts) parallels the Luke version (forgive us our sins) and so casts sin as a debt.
- "For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." (Mark 10:45)
- "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time." (2 Tim 2:5-6)
On the other hand you can find in Paul the idea also of Christ destroying the power of sin and death through his crucifixion and resurrection, which is not so much a question of merely appeasing God in some sense but of transforming human nature and deifying it through "life in Christ". For example Romans 6:
"For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus."
Or Romans 8:
"For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit...
You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness [dikaiosyne, justice, especially God's justice].If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness [dikaiosyne, justice, especially God's justice].If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
What we owe God is defined in the last 2 verses of the book of Ecclesiastes.
"The conclusion of the matter, everything having been heard, is: Fear the true God and keep his commandments, for this it the whole obligation of man. For the true God will judge every deed, including every hidden thing, as to whether it is good or bad." - Ecc 12:13,14
If we could do this perfectly we would, by definition, not sin. Since we can not currently do this, we owe God our death unless a ransom is paid for us. It is as if we are born a broken piece of pottery, that can not do what it was intended to do. Since a ransom has been paid, and since we have the opportunity to exercise faith in it, we can be happy despite deserving death.
"Happy are those whose lawless deeds have been pardoned and whose sins have been covered; happy is the man whose sin Jehovah will by no means take into account." - Romans 4:7,8; see also Psalm 32:1,2
When the ransom is applied in a physical way for mankind, (post-Armeggedon), This is what we have to look forward to:
Then God shows him favor and says;
'Spare him from going down into the pit! (or "grave.")
I have found a ransom!
Let his flesh become fresher (or "healthier.") than in youth;
Let him return to the days of his youthful vigor.'
He will entreat God, who will accept him,
And he will see His face with shouts of joy,
And He will restore His righteousness to mortal man.
- Job 33:24-26
No longer sinners and only declared righteous, but truly righteous along with the energy of a 12 year old, the body of a 24 year old, and a mind that will never stop learning.
"The conclusion of the matter, everything having been heard, is: Fear the true God and keep his commandments, for this it the whole obligation of man. For the true God will judge every deed, including every hidden thing, as to whether it is good or bad." - Ecc 12:13,14
If we could do this perfectly we would, by definition, not sin. Since we can not currently do this, we owe God our death unless a ransom is paid for us. It is as if we are born a broken piece of pottery, that can not do what it was intended to do. Since a ransom has been paid, and since we have the opportunity to exercise faith in it, we can be happy despite deserving death.
"Happy are those whose lawless deeds have been pardoned and whose sins have been covered; happy is the man whose sin Jehovah will by no means take into account." - Romans 4:7,8; see also Psalm 32:1,2
When the ransom is applied in a physical way for mankind, (post-Armeggedon), This is what we have to look forward to:
Then God shows him favor and says;
'Spare him from going down into the pit! (or "grave.")
I have found a ransom!
Let his flesh become fresher (or "healthier.") than in youth;
Let him return to the days of his youthful vigor.'
He will entreat God, who will accept him,
And he will see His face with shouts of joy,
And He will restore His righteousness to mortal man.
- Job 33:24-26
No longer sinners and only declared righteous, but truly righteous along with the energy of a 12 year old, the body of a 24 year old, and a mind that will never stop learning.
So we owe SIN our death not HaShem.
Except the ransom that Jesus paid was not to God--it was to free us from bondage to sin and death, as Romans 5, 6 and 8 state. We don't need to be saved from God (as the idea of Jesus paying a ransom to God implies), but rather from sin and death.
lovemuffin
τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
I don't really disagree insofar as I don't think the "ransom theory of atonement", as it's called, is the best view. But I think "forgive us our debts" certainly implies something like a debt to God in the form of sin, in the Lord's prayer. It wouldn't seem proper to ignore the actual existence of those verses, even if we contextualize them. Hence my caveat.
I like this assessment of the question from Gregory Nazianzen:
I like this assessment of the question from Gregory Nazianzen:
"We must now examine the question and the dogma so often passed over in silence, but which (I think) demands no less deep study. To whom was that blood offered, that was shed for us, and why was it shed? I mean the precious and glorious blood of God, the blood of the High Priest and of the Sacrifice. We were in bondage to the devil and sold under sin, having become corrupt through our concupiscence. Now, since a ransom is paid to him who holds us in his power, I ask to whom such a price was offered and why?
If to the devil it is outrageous! The robber receives the ransom, not only from God, but a ransom consisting of God Himself. He demands so exorbitant a payment for his tyranny that it would have been right for him to have freed us altogether. But if the price is offered to the Father, I ask first of all, how? For it was not the Father who held us captive. Why then should the blood of His only begotten Son please the Father, who would not even receive Isaac when he was offered as a whole burnt offering by Abraham, but replaced the human sacrifice with a ram?
Is it not evident that the Father accepts the sacrifice not because He demanded it or because He felt any need for it, but on account of economy: because Man must be sanctified by the humanity of God, and God Himself must deliver us by overcoming the tyrant through his own power, and drawing us to Himself by the mediation of the Son who effects this all for the honor of God, to whom He was obedient in everything…
What remains to be said shall be covered with a reverent silence..." (In Sanctum Pascha)
If to the devil it is outrageous! The robber receives the ransom, not only from God, but a ransom consisting of God Himself. He demands so exorbitant a payment for his tyranny that it would have been right for him to have freed us altogether. But if the price is offered to the Father, I ask first of all, how? For it was not the Father who held us captive. Why then should the blood of His only begotten Son please the Father, who would not even receive Isaac when he was offered as a whole burnt offering by Abraham, but replaced the human sacrifice with a ram?
Is it not evident that the Father accepts the sacrifice not because He demanded it or because He felt any need for it, but on account of economy: because Man must be sanctified by the humanity of God, and God Himself must deliver us by overcoming the tyrant through his own power, and drawing us to Himself by the mediation of the Son who effects this all for the honor of God, to whom He was obedient in everything…
What remains to be said shall be covered with a reverent silence..." (In Sanctum Pascha)
nazz
Doubting Thomas
Death is owed to us by reason of sin
And this I am in agreement with; great quote from St. Gregory Nazianzen. I don't think we owe a debt to God as if we need to be saved or ransomed from God--rather, by our sins we hurt our relationship with God, and so that damage we did to the relationship needs to be healed. Just as when we sin against our brother, we hurt our communion with them and we need to be forgiven in order for that rift to be mended; so with God, when we sin against Him, we need forgiveness and a way to be at one with God again (or literally, atonement).
Who owes us death?
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
Wasn't the value of Christ's blood presented to God as shown in Hebrews chapter 9?
"[Christ] entered into the holy place, not with the blood of goats and of young bulls, but with his own blood, once for all time, and obtained an everlasting deliverance (Lit., "ransoming; redemption.") for us." - Heb 9:12
"how much more will the blood of the Christ, who through an everlasting spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works so that we may render sacred service to the living God?" - Heb 9:14
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
Sorry Eileen I did not see your question as it was inside your quotes of me.
"The sting producing death is sin, and the power for sin is the Law. (or "and the Law give sin its power.")" - 1 Cor 15:56
"For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one person many will be made righteous. - Rom 5:19
"That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they all sinned--." - Romans 5:12
"I find, then, this law in my case: When I wish to do what is right, what is bad is present with me. I really delight in the law of God according to the man I am within, but I see in my body (Lit., "members") another law warring against the law of my mind and leading me captive to sin's law that is in my body. Miserable man that I am! Who will rescue me from the body undergoing this death? Thanks to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So, then, with my mind I myself am a slave to God's law, but with my flesh to sin's law." - Romans 7:21-25
As imperfect humans, we sin even when we do not want to. This missing God's mark of human perfection has us condemned to die someday. Exercising faith in the ransom will free us from this futility, either in a resurrection from the dead, or by never dying at all when Christ comes to cleanse the earth like what was done in Noah's day. (John 11:25,26)
nazz
Doubting Thomas
It's just a consequence
Can you give any verses from the Tanakh that supports this?
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
"But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die." - Ge 2:17
None of them can ever redeem a brother
Or give to God a ransom for him,
(The ransom (or "redemption") price for their life (or "soul") is so precious
That it is always beyond their reach);
That he should live forever and not see the pit. (or "grave")
- Psalm 49:7-9
"Look! All the souls (or "lives") - to me they belong. As the soul of the father so also the soul of the son - to me they belong. The soul (or "person.") who sins is the one who will die." - Eze 18:4
Salvador
RF's Swedenborgian
Christians don't owe God for their sins, because Jesus Christ's atonement paid the price for our sins. The only thing you need to do is to have faith in the resurrected Christ and allow the Holy Spirit into your soul; and your sins will be forgiven by God on Judgment Day.