Do we owe God for sin?

[Pegg]

please note that the original command given to Adam did not include the phrase "you must not touch it". Eve added that to HaShem's instruction which would have been a sin in itself if Adam had correctly relayed HaShem's command which he may or may not have done-we are not told that.

Touching the tree would not have caused death, eating of it's fruit did because that was the command. Obeying HaShem brings life-disobeying brings death. So, yes I believe it is very possible that if Adam or any one of us would obey HaShem fully we would live. However, there is Heb 9:27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: so that has to t be taken into consideration- I will have to look into that.

I agree. I believe it was Jehovah's purpose for mankind to live indefinitely just as the angels do. Were it not for sin, mankind would not be appointed to die at all. Obedience does not require a death penalty. I guess that is why Jehovah told the Israelites "I have put life and death before you , the blessing and the malediction and you must choose life in order that you may keep alive" Deut 30;19

 

[Eileen]

"In reality the Law produces wrath, but where there is no law, neither is there any transgression." - Romans 5:15
In this verse it is assumed Paul is saying that the Torah/law produces HaShem's wrath but that is not what it saying. Here the Torah/Law produces anger in those who do not want to be made aware of their sin so (they reason) if there is no Torah/Law there is no transgression. The wrath of HaShem only comes when His Torah or truth (Psa 119:151, John 17:17) is broken or disregarded .

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth (Torah) in unrighteousness;

"For Jehovah is our Judge, Jehovah is our Lawgiver, Jehovah is our King; He is the One who will save us." - Isaiah 33:22 So very true!

Thus, sin (the transgression of Torah/law 1Jo 3:4) incurs God's wrath. However, he does remember we are dust, and has provided a legal means to cancel out our debt, if we exercise faith in that means.

What debt? and what legal means? Are you referring to the legal means given in Torah for repaying those we harm or for obtaining forgiveness i.e. Teshuvah? Or something else?

 

[Desert Snake]

Eve disobeyed the direct orders of the father, in Eden. Now we, ie humans, are paying the price because we were kicked out of the Garden.

 

[Eileen]

OTE="disciple, post: 4206387, member: 41066"]Eve disobeyed the direct orders of the father, in Eden. Now we, ie humans, are paying the price because we were kicked out of the Garden.[/QUOTE]

That is not what Scripture says.

Gen 3:22-24 And YHVH God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know (yada- know, understand, determine) good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: therefore YHVH God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So He drove out the man; and He placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to sarmar (keep watch over, guard) the way of the tree of life.

Actually HaShem did not 'kick them out' because Adam and Eve sinned but because He did not want them to live forever in the state of determining what we thought was good or evil. Living that way has not worked out to well for us. It is HaShem's love for us that made Him send us out.

And Scripture clearly says we do not inherit sin and that we are responsible for our own sin.
Deuteronomy 24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin." (KJV)
Ezekiel 18:20 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (KJV)
Jeremiah 31:30 "But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge." (KJV)
We earn the wade paid by sin (death) by our sin, not Adam and Eve's.

Blaming Eve or Adam for our condition is just trying to let ourselves off the hook for our own bad choices. And if we had no choice but to sin then HaShem would be unjust in blaming us. The ability to freely will to choose good (obeying HaShem's instructions) or evil (disobeying HaShem's instructions) or choosing what we determine is good or evil (apart from HaShem) was within us from creation-our births.

 

[Kolibri]

@Eileen a lot of questions here. As I am not all "with it" I will give a partial answer now.

In Ge 2:17 Man was told that if they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and bad, that "in [that] day...you will certainly die."
Did they? Yes, spiritually they died in the very day they ate from it. Their relationship with Jehovah was severed. What about physically?

For a thousand years are in your eyes just as yesterday when it is past,
Just as a watch during the night.
- Psalm 90:4 (see also 2 Peter 3:8)

Adam lived only 930 years. The longest any man has been recorded to live was Me-thu'se-lah at 969 years. By the way Jehovah reckons time, not one man has yet lived to see his second day.
Since man was so close to perfection, at first our years were more plentiful. As soon as the Deluge came, perhaps the added stress of not having the earth protected by the "waters above" added to the number of generations between us and perfection, there was a quick breakdown in the maximum lifespan of the children born after the Flood. (Ge 1:7) Eventually a law had to be made to make marrying a close relative illegal - and it is certainly taboo down to this day.

And yet we are told that we should be living be living much longer. For one, the proportion of adult years to formative years is off-kilter with the pattern set by animals in general. For two, we have this prophesy:

They will not build for someone else to inhabit,
Nor will they plant for others to eat.
For the days of my people will be like the days of a tree,
And the work of their hands my chosen ones will enjoy to the full.
- Isaiah 65:32

Some trees live thousands of years. To enjoy the work of our hands to the full, we need to outlive the 'life-span' of those works. We will build homes and live long enough for the home to need replaced, and then build another. It is a restoration prophesy, a restoration of what was intended for Adam and Eve prior to sin.

We can only be pardoned from our sinful state by the legal exchange of one perfect man's life for another perfect man's error.

Jesus provided that legal exchange.

But he was pierced for our transgression;
He was crushed for our errors.
He bore the punishment for our peace,
And because of his wounds we were healed.
- Isaiah 53:5 (see also 1 Peter 2:24)

Now that the Christ has paid our debt, we await the future day when it will be applied physically during the 1000 year reign.
At that time we will be judged by how we respond to newly inspired directions relevant to the lifting us out of our sin-prone state. (Re 20:12)
Once we pass a final test of fitness for life, we, who will live on the earth, will no longer be considered dead in our trespasses. (Re 20:5a;7-9; Eph 2:1)

 

[Eileen]

@Eileen a lot of questions here. As I am not all "with it" I will give a partial answer now.

In Ge 2:17 Man was told that if they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and bad, that "in [that] day...you will certainly die."
Did they? Yes, spiritually they died in the very day they ate from it. Their relationship with Jehovah was severed. What scripture do you use to divide Physical death and spiritual death And what verse supports the idea that their (Adam and Eve's) relationship with HaShem was severed? What about physically?

For a thousand years are in your eyes just as yesterday when it is past,
Just as a watch during the night.
- Psalm 90:4 (see also 2 Peter 3:8) I can agree with this.

Adam lived only 930 years. The longest any man has been recorded to live was Me-thu'se-lah at 969 years. By the way Jehovah reckons time, not one man has yet lived to see his second day.
Since man was so close to perfection, at first our years were more plentiful. As soon as the Deluge came, perhaps the added stress of not having the earth protected by the "waters above" added to the number of generations between us and perfection, there was a quick breakdown in the maximum lifespan of the children born after the Flood. (Ge 1:7) Eventually a law had to be made to make marrying a close relative illegal - and it is certainly taboo down to this day.

And yet we are told that we should be living be living much longer. For one, the proportion of adult years to formative years is off-kilter with the pattern set by animals in general. For two, we have this prophesy:

They will not build for someone else to inhabit,
Nor will they plant for others to eat.
For the days of my people will be like the days of a tree,
And the work of their hands my chosen ones will enjoy to the full.
- Isaiah 65:32

Some trees live thousands of years. To enjoy the work of our hands to the full, we need to outlive the 'life-span' of those works. We will build homes and live long enough for the home to need replaced, and then build another. It is a restoration prophesy, a restoration of what was intended for Adam and Eve prior to sin. But for now we have to deal with Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. And Psa 90:10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labor and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

We can only be pardoned from our sinful state by the legal exchange of one perfect man's life for another perfect man's error. Scripture please! Just because you state this as true does not mean it is true.

Jesus provided that legal exchange.

But he was pierced for our transgression; he was wounded BECAUSE of our transgression You realize Isaiah is not speaking here
He was crushed for our errors. It is the Kings of the world that say this and they are speaking of Israel
He bore the punishment for our peace, This only applies to Yeshua 1 Peter 2:24 as he was an Israelite
And because of his wounds we were healed. Context identifies the "Servant in Isaiah as Israel. .
- Isaiah 53:5 (see also 1 Peter 2:24) This is one of the verses Christianity hijacked
Yeshua was definitely crucified by iniquitous men and because our sinfulness but not on behalf of them or to pay for them but as a result of them.

Now that the Christ has paid our debt, How do you get around, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the father. Every man shall be put to death for his own sin. [Deuteronomy 24:16]
we await the future day when it will be applied physically during the 1000 year reign.
At that time we will be judged by how we respond to newly inspired directions???? Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books (books of the Law) were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. What newly inspired direction? All your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal.- no 'newly inspired instructions'- His original instructions) (Psalms 119:160)... relevant to the lifting us out of our sin-prone state. (Re 20:12) We are responsible for controlling our sin-prone state (yetzer hara).

Once we pass a final test of fitness for life, we, who will live on the earth, will no longer be considered dead in our trespasses. (Re 20:5a;7-9; Eph 2:1)

Doesn't quite track.

I know you believe what you have written is true but I do not believe much of it is really supported by scripture or by Yeshua's or any of the Apostolic teaching unless you pull verses out of context and read into them your own meanings. That is my opinion and I think you try very well.

 

[Kolibri]

Ge 6:3 was a proclamation in heaven of how long it would be before the Deluge.
Ps 90:10 is a truism that is true even today. But it was a prayer of Moses and he personally lived 120 years. (Ps 90 superscription; De 34:7)

@Eileen - "Scripture please! Just because you state this as true does not mean it is true."

This is difficult as we have covered these scriptures already on page 1 of this thread, but they are partially in the Christian Greek Scriptures, such as in the Book of Romans chapters 5 and 7.
As the Christian Greek Scriptures were 'hijacking' other verses, in your estimation, it seems they are not usable for "proof."

In Re 20:12 it said there would be scrolls opened, or as your translation puts it "books". You may see it as scrolls that have already been opened, that is the Law Covenant. Where I see simply "were opened" at the time of this judging will be going on.

 

[Desert Snake]

OTE="disciple, post: 4206387, member: 41066"]Eve disobeyed the direct orders of the father, in Eden. Now we, ie humans, are paying the price because we were kicked out of the Garden.

That is not what Scripture says.

Gen 3:22-24 And YHVH God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know (yada- know, understand, determine) good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: therefore YHVH God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So He drove out the man; and He placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to sarmar (keep watch over, guard) the way of the tree of life.

Actually HaShem did not 'kick them out' because Adam and Eve sinned but because He did not want them to live forever in the state of determining what we thought was good or evil. Living that way has not worked out to well for us. It is HaShem's love for us that made Him send us out.

And Scripture clearly says we do not inherit sin and that we are responsible for our own sin.
Deuteronomy 24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin." (KJV)
Ezekiel 18:20 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (KJV)
Jeremiah 31:30 "But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge." (KJV)
We earn the wade paid by sin (death) by our sin, not Adam and Eve's.

Blaming Eve or Adam for our condition is just trying to let ourselves off the hook for our own bad choices. And if we had no choice but to sin then HaShem would be unjust in blaming us. The ability to freely will to choose good (obeying HaShem's instructions) or evil (disobeying HaShem's instructions) or choosing what we determine is good or evil (apart from HaShem) was within us from creation-our births.

''Inherit sin''? I didn't say inherit sin. I said kicked out of the garden.
Eve disobeyed. Call it sin, say it was some divine 'plan', call it whatever you like, but the verses indicate a negative response to Eve eating of the fruit.

 

[Eileen]

''Inherit sin''? I didn't say inherit sin. I said kicked out of the garden.
Eve disobeyed. Call it sin, say it was some divine 'plan', call it whatever you like, but the verses indicate a negative response to Eve eating of the fruit.

Sorry if I misunderstood you.
Yes, you are right there was negative response to Eve's disobedience (I find it odd that you never mention Adam)- pain in childbirth-struggle with producing food from now cursed ground-relationship issues and ultimate death which I have acknowledged all along was the result of sin but being driven from the garden appears to be a protective act of HaShem so that we could not live forever in this condition.
.

 

[AmyintheBibleBelt]

I am looking for information not argument- could anyone cite Bible verses that says we owe God for sin?

He made the rules. He created rebellious humans. And if he is all knowing, he created them knowing they would fail.

 

[Kolibri]

He made the rules. He created rebellious humans. And if he is all knowing, he created them knowing they would fail.

This pre-supposes that the God uses his ability to pre-know indiscriminately. If he did not restrain his ability to know the future, then he would not be able to hope and we would only have an illusion of free will. But God does hope, so he must choose not to pre-know everything.

For the vineyard of Jehovah of armies is the house of Israel;
The men of Judah are the plantation he was fond of.
He kept hoping for justice,
But look! there was injustice;
For righteousness,
But look! a cry of distress.
- Isaiah 5:7

 

[AmyintheBibleBelt]

This pre-supposes that the God uses his ability to pre-know indiscriminately. If he did not restrain his ability to know the future, then he would not be able to hope and we would only have an illusion of free will. But God does hope, so he must choose not to pre-know everything.

For the vineyard of Jehovah of armies is the house of Israel;
The men of Judah are the plantation he was fond of.
He kept hoping for justice,
But look! there was injustice;
For righteousness,
But look! a cry of distress.
- Isaiah 5:7

Haha, oh, so he is all knowing, but chooses which parts he'd like to know? Perfectly rational explanation.

 

[Desert Snake]

Sorry if I misunderstood you.
Yes, you are right there was negative response to Eve's disobedience (I find it odd that you never mention Adam)- pain in childbirth-struggle with producing food from now cursed ground-relationship issues and ultimate death which I have acknowledged all along was the result of sin but being driven from the garden appears to be a protective act of HaShem so that we could not live forever in this condition.
.

Could be. Adam was guilty as well, no need to harp on that; I don't take this narrative with quite the import some might, it seems a bit allegorical.

He made the rules. He created rebellious humans. And if he is all knowing, he created them knowing they would fail.

He didn't know they would fail, because humans had freewill from the get-go. we are shown this aspect of freewill in the story!

 

[AmyintheBibleBelt]

Could be. Adam was guilty as well, no need to harp on that; I don't take this narrative with quite the import some might, it seems a bit allegorical.


He didn't know they would fail, because humans had freewill from the get-go. we are shown this aspect of freewill in the story!

So god is not all knowing?

 

[Desert Snake]

So god is not all knowing?

Since we have freewill, this means even if He is, it doesn't matter; I do not believe our freewill is pre-determined, so my guess is that G-d gives us that leeway and presents an unknowingness to Himself.

 

[It's Ya Girl Jesus' Wife]

Genesis 2:17 NIV

"But you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

Romans 6:23 NIV

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."


We are all sinners so we all deserve death because God is perfect and just. The debt is already paid for us if we accept Christ as Lord and Savior.

 

[AmyintheBibleBelt]

Since we have freewill, this means even if He is, it doesn't matter; I do not believe our freewill is pre-determined, so my guess is that G-d gives us that leeway and presents an unknowingness to Himself.

Does god create souls he knows are destined to hell?

 

[Eileen]

What we owe God is defined in the last 2 verses of the book of Ecclesiastes.

"The conclusion of the matter, everything having been heard, is: Fear the true God and keep his commandments, for this it the whole obligation of man. For the true God will judge every deed, including every hidden thing, as to whether it is good or bad." - Ecc 12:13,14

Where does this verse say we owe HaShem death? This verse says we owe HaShem fear and obedience it does not say we owe Him our death if we do not obey.

If we could do this perfectly we would, by definition, not sin. Agreed. Since we can not currently do this Why not?, we owe God our death What verses say this? unless a ransom is paid for us What verses say a ransom is required?. It is as if we are born a broken piece of pottery, that can not do what it was intended to do. What verses say that we can not do what we are supposed to do? Deu 30:11 “For this command which I am commanding you today, it is not too hard for you, nor is it far off.

Since a ransom has been paid, and since we have the opportunity to exercise faith in it, we can be happy despite deserving death.

"Happy are those whose lawless deeds have been pardoned and whose sins have been covered; happy is the man whose sin Jehovah will by no means take into account." - Romans 4:7,8; see also Psalm 32:1,2 At the time David wrote this sin could be and was forgiven through the methods prescribed in Torah which include repentance and return to HaShem's ways (His Torah).

When the ransom is applied in a physical way for mankind, (post-Armeggedon), This is what we have to look forward to:

Are you identifying Yeshua as the ransom indicated in Job? If you do not have a Tanakh like the JPS try the YTL version, it is closer to the actual Hebrew here. Start at the beginning of chapter 33 (at least). Identify who is speaking. Job, in context, does not support the idea that we are "ransomed" by someone else but it present our upright actions as our ransom. And Torah not only shows us what if sin it also teaches us what upright action is according to HaShem.

Then God shows him favor and says;
'Spare him from going down into the pit! (or "grave.")
I have found a ransom! Verse 23
Let him return to the days of his youthful vigor.'
He will entreat God, who will accept him, because of the man's upright actions.
And he will see His face with shouts of joy,
And He will restore His righteousness to mortal man.
- Job 33:24-26

No longer sinners and only declared righteous, but truly righteous along with the energy of a 12 year old, the body of a 24 year old, and a mind that will never stop learning.

I agree the time will come when we will be wholly renewed. But a person can not simply be declared righteous if he is not. And someone else righteousness can not make me righteous-I must do that myself by following HaShem's instructions on how to be righteous.

Sorry I did that wrong again. my comments are inside your post.

 

[Eileen]

This is difficult as we have covered these scriptures already on page 1 of this thread, but they are partially in the Christian Greek Scriptures, such as in the Book of Romans chapters 5 and 7.
As the Christian Greek Scriptures were 'hijacking' other verses, in your estimation, it seems they are not usable for "proof."

I did not say the Christian Greek Scriptures were "hijacking" other verses. I said Christianity hijacked the psalm you quoted to support an idea it does not but yes, she has done so with other Tanakh verses as well. The original writers of the NT knew what the verses of the Hebrew bible they quoted meant and said but Christianity has re efined a lot of them.

 

[Kolibri]

Haha, oh, so he is all knowing, but chooses which parts he'd like to know? Perfectly rational explanation.

all knowing and omniscience are terms we came up with to describe God. We get these things from various scriptures. But note how many of these verses are present-tense.

"And there is not a creation that is hidden from his sight, but all things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of the one to whom we must give an account." - Hebrews 4:13

"For the eyes of Jehovah are roving about through all the earth to show his strength in behalf of those whose heart is complete toward him." - 2 Chronicles 16:9a

He rules forever by his might.
His eyes keep watch on the nations.
Those who are stubborn should not exalt themselves.
- Psalm 66:7

The eyes of Jehovah are everywhere,
Watching both the bad and the good.
- Proverbs 15:3

His ability to foreknow things is also demonstrated by fulfilled prophesies, but his exercise of that power must be self-regulated. This allows us, humans and angels, to be free moral agents with the ability to choose and to be accountable for our own actions.

"Now if it seems bad to you to serve Jehovah, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve, whether the gods that your forefathers served on the other side of the River or the gods of the Am'or-ites in whose land you are dwelling. But as for me and my household, we will serve Jehovah." - Joshua 24:15