Do we owe God for sin?

[Eileen]

Christians don't owe God for their sins, because Jesus Christ's atonement paid the price for our sins. The only thing you need to do is to have faith in the resurrected Christ and allow the Holy Spirit into your soul; and your sins will be forgiven by God on Judgment Day.

Are you saying all non-Christians owe God for their sin? And does not Rev 20:13-14 say everyone will be judged by their works and rewarded accordingly?

 

[Salvador]

Are you saying all non-Christians owe God for their sin? And does not Rev 20:13-14 say everyone will be judged by their works and rewarded accordingly?

I believe that righteous non-Christians will not be as harshly punished as totally wicked people who reject Christ's salvation. I believe that good works will spare souls the worst level of eternal punishment for their sins. However, anybody who willfully and knowingly rejects Jesus Christ as their personal Savior will not be saved.


"But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart" that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. ( Romans 10:8-9 )

 

[Eileen]

I believe that righteous non-Christians will not be as harshly punished as totally wicked people who reject Christ's salvation. I believe that good works will spare souls the worst level of eternal punishment for their sins. However, anybody who willfully and knowingly rejects Jesus Christ as their personal Savior will not be saved.


"But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart" that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. ( Romans 10:8-9 )

But what does this verse mean?
I believe Yeshua is my earthly Lord-King-Master, I believe HaShem raised him from the dead, I even believe that it only through Yeshua, our High Priest's entrance into the Holy of Holies with a sacrifice (that either is or will represent our totally repentant hearts and minds and totally submitted wills) that will allow us to be declared righteous and clean before HaShem. But I don't know that is what you mean.

 

[Pegg]

I am looking for information not argument- could anyone cite Bible verses that says we owe God for sin?

Ezekiel 18:4 "...the soul who sins is the one who will die"

Romans 5:12 "...death spread to all men because they had all sinned"

 

[Eileen]

Ezekiel 18:4 "...the soul who sins is the one who will die"

Romans 5:12 "...death spread to all men because they had all sinned"

Do not see how these verses say we owe God.

 

[Pegg]

Do not see how these verses say we owe God.

Death is the debt we owe to God when we transgress his law.

 

[Eileen]

Death is the debt we owe to God when we transgress his law.

Can you cite verses that say this?

 

[Pegg]

Can you cite verses that say this?

sure,

Gods law was stated to Adam, if he disobeyed Gods law, death would be the consequences:
Gen 2:17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.”

Paul explains that death is the result of sin (which is disobedience to Gods laws)
Romans 5:12 That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin,+ and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned

Is there something specific you are trying to determine?

 

[Eileen]

sure,

Gods law was stated to Adam, if he disobeyed Gods law, death would be the consequences:
Gen 2:17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.”

Paul explains that death is the result of sin (which is disobedience to Gods laws)
Romans 5:12 That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin,+ and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned

Is there something specific you are trying to determine?

These verses say that death is the result of sin they do not say we owe HaShem our death because we sin. I know that is how you read them but they really do not say we owe HaShem death they say death comes through sinning- sin pays us death not HaShem. according to HaShem (in Torah) only a few sins carry the death penalty and we are told in 1Jo 3:4 Whosoever commits sin transgress also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Yes, I was trying to determine if there was any verse in the whole bible that says we owe HaShem our death or even really indicates that HaShem requires death for all sin. So far no one has been able to show me one.

However Mic 6:8 He hath shown you, O man, what is good; and what the LORD does requires of you, but to do mishpāt ( judgment, justice, ordinance (His Law)), and to love chesed goodness, kindness, faithfulness, steadfast love), and to walk tsana`(submissively, humbly) with thy God? Of course walking humbly require repentance and return to His ways; restitution to others we have harmed and treating others as fairly and kindly as we would want to be treated and it also means following His instructions as they apply to us.

I think the understanding that HaShem requires death for sin is a corrupted understanding of death being to consequence of sinning. All humans are going to die but not because HaShem has condemned us to die but because we sin and the wage sin pays is death. We are going to die so that we maybe resurrected-not as punishment from HaShem but as a means for Him to make us new and free from sin's demand.

I thank you for your reply and I do not expect you to agree with me.

Shalom

 

[Pegg]

These verses say that death is the result of sin they do not say we owe HaShem our death because we sin. I know that is how you read them but they really do not say we owe HaShem death they say death comes through sinning- sin pays us death not HaShem. according to HaShem (in Torah) only a few sins carry the death penalty and we are told in 1Jo 3:4 Whosoever commits sin transgress also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Yes, I was trying to determine if there was any verse in the whole bible that says we owe HaShem our death or even really indicates that HaShem requires death for all sin. So far no one has been able to show me one.

However Mic 6:8 He hath shown you, O man, what is good; and what the LORD does requires of you, but to do mishpāt ( judgment, justice, ordinance (His Law)), and to love chesed goodness, kindness, faithfulness, steadfast love), and to walk tsana`(submissively, humbly) with thy God? Of course walking humbly require repentance and return to His ways; restitution to others we have harmed and treating others as fairly and kindly as we would want to be treated and it also means following His instructions as they apply to us.

I think the understanding that HaShem requires death for sin is a corrupted understanding of death being to consequence of sinning. All humans are going to die but not because HaShem has condemned us to die but because we sin and the wage sin pays is death. We are going to die so that we maybe resurrected-not as punishment from HaShem but as a means for Him to make us new and free from sin's demand.

I thank you for your reply and I do not expect you to agree with me.

Shalom

Hi Eileen,

I guess a good question to ask is why would death be the consequence of sinning against Gods law if God did not require it? When you think about it, Adam was told he would die IF he ate from the tree...ie, if he did what he was told not to do.

God must have instituted the penalty of sin...otherwise why does the law demand death at all?

 

[Kolibri]

"In reality the Law produces wrath, but where there is no law, neither is there any transgression." - Romans 5:15

"For Jehovah is our Judge, Jehovah is our Lawgiver, Jehovah is our King; He is the One who will save us." - Isaiah 33:22

Thus, sin incurs God's wrath. However, he does remember we are dust, and has provided a legal means to cancel out our debt, if we exercise faith in that means.

 

[Eileen]

Hi Eileen,

I guess a good question to ask is why would death be the consequence of sinning against Gods law if God did not require it? When you think about it, Adam was told he would die IF he ate from the tree...ie, if he did what he was told not to do.

God must have instituted the penalty of sin...otherwise why does the law demand death at all?

HaShem warned Adam that disobeying the one negative command He had given him would bring death. HaShem put laws into effect-natural laws such as eating keeps us alive and starving kills us. He created us and He knows how we work- obeying His Laws and instruction us would keep us alive- and disobeying them would not. Yes, HaShem created us to live through obedience to His instructions and to die if we did not and when each human knowingly disobeys in some way that human eventually dies but HaShem resurrects and death in this age is not the end.

Romans 5:12That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned. Sin entered the world when Adam committed the first sin but we die because we sin- not because he sinned. And we die because we choose to sin/break His Law that brings life and the result is death . Lev 18:5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.

HaShem does not require death-death is the natural consequence of not following His instructions just like dying is the natural outcome starving. HaShem did not say "I will require your life if you disobey Me." He warned Adam that death would come him if he did not live in the life provided by obedience to HaShem's instructions.

Man was not created immortal and incorruptible then sinned and became mortal and corruptible. Living according to HaShem's instructions would have kept mortal and corruptible Adam and us alive-constantly renewed physically but once we knowingly ignored His instructions we began to die.

And again the Law only requires the death penalty to be carried out by humans in only a few instances and that death penalty brings about death before the time it would usually claim the person convicted. In other words death comes as a natural consequence of sin but when one is convicted of a sin carrying the "death penalty" he dies unnaturally.

That raised the question of children who die before they even know His instructions. They also die unnaturally but not because they have knowingly sinned or inherited sin. I believe it is because when sin entered so did death and as sin increases the atmosphere of death gets thicker but I honestly do not have a really good handle on that aspect of things.

The point is HaShem does not require death for sin but death comes from sinning and even though we will all die eventually we can still choose to live according to His instructions for living-we can still choose life and that choice will follow us into the next life.

 

[Pegg]

HaShem does not require death-death is the natural consequence of not following His instructions just like dying is the natural outcome starving. HaShem did not say "I will require your life if you disobey Me." He warned Adam that death would come him if he did not live in the life provided by obedience to HaShem's instructions.

I think there are a few scriptures which indicate that he actually does say he will require a persons life:

Gen 9:5 Besides that, I will demand an accounting for your lifeblood.* I will demand an accounting from every living creature; and from each man I will demand an accounting for the life of his brother.

And we can see from this following scripture that death penalty is not a natural effect of committing a sin.... it is a punishment for error:
Exodus 21:12 “Anyone who strikes a man so that he dies must be put to death

Im sure you'd agree that being 'put to death' is not the same as dying as a result of sin.

Man was not created immortal and incorruptible then sinned and became mortal and corruptible. Living according to HaShem's instructions would have kept mortal and corruptible Adam and us alive-constantly renewed physically but once we knowingly ignored His instructions we began to die.

according to the words of King David, he was 'born' a sinner from the womb:

Psalm 51:5 Look! I was born guilty of error,
And my mother conceived me in sin.

This indicates that we are born with sin even before we actually commit sin. And that is the only explanation for why a small child can die. If it were true that we only die because we personally sin against Gods law, then how else could it be explained that babies and children die??

 

[Eileen]

I think there are a few scriptures which indicate that he actually does say he will require a persons life:

Gen 9:5 Besides that, I will demand an accounting for your lifeblood.* I will demand an accounting from every living creature; and from each man I will demand an accounting for the life of his brother.

And we can see from this following scripture that death penalty is not a natural effect of committing a sin.... it is a punishment for error:
Exodus 21:12 “Anyone who strikes a man so that he dies must be put to death

Im sure you'd agree that being 'put to death' is not the same as dying as a result of sin.

You are confirming what I have already said. Ex 21:12 refers to murder which is a sin that requires the death penalty. Gen 9:5 says that HaShem will require the death of any man or any living thing if they murder or kill another human being. And, yes, being put to death is an unnatural death it is not the natural death that comes to all men who sin.


according to the words of King David, he was 'born' a sinner from the womb:

Psalm 51:5 Look! I was born guilty of error,
And my mother conceived me in sin.

This indicates that we are born with sin even before we actually commit sin.
Only if you take verse 5 literally and if you do that you must also take verses 7 and 8 literally. So HaShem must use hyssop to purify us and our broken bones rejoice. David is speaking poetically/figuratively. Context and reality demands a figurative understanding of verse 5. David also wrote It was you who created my inward parts, You fashioned me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee: for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Psalm 139:13, 14 - If you say David said he was born a sinner you say HaShem formed him that way.
David wrote Psalm 51 after Nathan the prophet confronted him concerning Bathsheba. He was acknowledging and lamenting over his sin with her and her husband. He is speaking very figuratively about his present condition of sin-almost exaggeratingly for effect.


And that is the only explanation for why a small child can die. If it were true that we only die because we personally sin against Gods law, then how else could it be explained that babies and children die??

As I have said-I do not have a full answer for that but I think the answer lies in natural death caused by knowingly sinning and unnatural death say of a small child. But speaking of small children- if children are born sinful how could Yeshua say Luk 18:16-17 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein? If a little child is sinful how can they be of the Kingdom?

 

[Kolibri]

As I have said-I do not have a full answer for that but I think the answer lies in natural death caused by knowingly sinning and unnatural death say of a small child. But speaking of small children- if children are born sinful how could Yeshua say Luk 18:16-17 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein? If a little child is sinful how can they be of the Kingdom?

Because little children still thrive to learn. They do not block learning thru preconceived and cherished ideas.

"This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, (or "their taking in knowledge of you.") the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ." - John 17:3

 

[Pegg]

As I have said-I do not have a full answer for that but I think the answer lies in natural death caused by knowingly sinning and unnatural death say of a small child.

What if death is not natural? What if it was never part of Gods intention for humans to die?

We do get the implication that Adam could have remained living forever if he had of obeyed God. For example, God told him "in the day of your eating from it you will die"

And Eve was able to quote the law to the Serpent when she said: Gen 3:2 At this the woman said to the serpent: “We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden.+3 But God has said about the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden:+ ‘You must not eat from it, no, you must not touch it; otherwise you will die.’”

Don't you think it stands to reason that if they did not touch the tree, they would not have died?

But speaking of small children- if children are born sinful how could Yeshua say Luk 18:16-17 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein? If a little child is sinful how can they be of the Kingdom?

Because the kingdom of God has been established in order to put an end to sin and death. And even little children need the kingdom if they want to be saved from sin and death because they too are affected by sin and death.

But the promise from God is this:

Revelation 21:4
And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes,+ and death will be no more,+neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore.+
The former things have passed away.”

Isaiah 25:8
8 He will swallow up* death forever,+
And the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will wipe away the tears from all faces.+
The reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth,
For Jehovah himself has spoken it.

1 Corinthians 15:26
26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing.

​

 

[Eileen]

What if death is not natural? What if it was never part of Gods intention for humans to die? I think it most likely that HaShem did not want mankind to die and therefore He gave us instructions and laws that would enable us to live. If Adam or any one of us would choose to perfectly obey HaShem's instructions we would not die unless something unnatural happened like we got killed somehow. However no one has ever chosen to perfectly obeyed HaShem (with the probable exception of Yeshua). And definitely Yeshua died unnaturally.

Eze 18:20 states "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself. Once someone knowingly sins his natural end will be death unless, of course, something unnatural happens to make him die before he would have if it had not happened.

We do get the implication that Adam could have remained living forever if he had of obeyed God. For example, God told him "in the day of your eating from it you will die"

And Eve was able to quote the law to the Serpent when she said: Gen 3:2 At this the woman said to the serpent: “We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden.+3 But God has said about the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden:+ ‘You must not eat from it, no, you must not touch it; otherwise you will die.’” please note that the original command given to Adam did not include the phrase "you must not touch it". Eve added that to HaShem's instruction which would have been a sin in itself if Adam had correctly relayed HaShem's command which he may or may not have done-we are not told that.

Don't you think it stands to reason that if they did not touch the tree, they would not have died? Touching the tree would not have caused death, eating of it's fruit did because that was the command. Obeying HaShem brings life-disobeying brings death. So, yes I believe it is very possible that if Adam or any one of us would obey HaShem fully we would live. However, there is Heb 9:27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: so that has to t be taken into consideration- I will have to look into that.



Because the kingdom of God has been established in order to put an end to sin and death. And even little children need the kingdom if they want to be saved from sin and death because they too are affected by sin and death. The Kingdom of HaShem has always existed because it's King-HaShem has always existed. The gospel message is that and that the Kingdom on HaShem will be established on earth as He promised it would. And I agree death and the grave(hell) will be have no place in His Kingdom.

But the promise from God is this:

Revelation 21:4
And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes,+ and death will be no more,+neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore.+
The former things have passed away.”

Isaiah 25:8
8 He will swallow up* death forever,+
And the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will wipe away the tears from all faces.+
The reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth,
For Jehovah himself has spoken it.

1 Corinthians 15:26
26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing.

​

 

[Eileen]

Because little children still thrive to learn. They do not block learning thru preconceived and cherished ideas. Not quite sure how your comment relates to children being born sinful.

"This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, (or "their taking in knowledge of you.") the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ." - John 17:3

Yes, eternal life is knowing (HaShem), the only true Elohim and the one (Yeshua HaMashiach) whom He sent. But again, how does this relate to the concept of being born sinful? Can you tie these two thoughts together?

 

[Kolibri]

Yes, eternal life is knowing (HaShem), the only true Elohim and the one (Yeshua HaMashiach) whom He sent. But again, how does this relate to the concept of being born sinful? Can you tie these two thoughts together?

It was not related to how children are born sinful. It just was to show what Jesus meant at Luke 16:17-18. We simply need to be teachable. If we are not, then we will miss out on the means of being declared righteous by God. (Titus 3:6,7)

As far as being born sinful. We have this stanza from a Psalm composed by David.

Look! I was born guilty of error,
And my mother conceived me in sin. (or "And sinful from the moment my mother conceived me.")
- Psalm 51:5

And from this statement of Job's:

Who can produce someone clean from someone unclean?
No one can!
- Job 14:4

We are born with an artificially reduced lifespan. And along with that comes various birth defects and propensity for diseases.

The reversal is what is promised by means of the ransom

And no resident (or "inhabitant.") will say: "I am sick."
The people dwelling in the land will be pardoned for their error.
- Isaiah 33:24

 

[Eileen]

It was not related to how children are born sinful. It just was to show what Jesus meant at Luke 16:17-18. We simply need to be teachable. If we are not, then we will miss out on the means of being declared righteous by God. (Titus 3:6,7)

As far as being born sinful. We have this stanza from a Psalm composed by David.

Look! I was born guilty of error,
And my mother conceived me in sin. (or "And sinful from the moment my mother conceived me.")
- Psalm 51:5 according to the words of King David, he was 'born' a sinner from the womb:

You must have missed this post.

Psalm 51:5 Look! I was born guilty of error,
And my mother conceived me in sin.

This indicates that we are born with sin even before we actually commit sin.
Only if you take verse 5 literally and if you do that you must also take verses 7 and 8 literally. So HaShem must use hyssop to purify us and our broken bones rejoice. David is speaking poetically/figuratively. Context and reality demands a figurative understanding of verse 5. David also wrote It was you who created my inward parts, You fashioned me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee: for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Psalm 139:13, 14 - If you say David said he was born a sinner you say HaShem formed him that way.
David wrote Psalm 51 after Nathan the prophet confronted him concerning Bathsheba. He was acknowledging and lamenting over his sin with her and her husband. He is speaking very figuratively about his present condition of sin-almost exaggeratingly for effect.


And from this statement of Job's:

Who can produce someone clean from someone unclean?
No one can!- Job 14:4

JPS Job 14:4 Who can produce a clean thing out of an unclean one. No one. Job is speaking to his false friend here. He is in a state of "uncleanness" because of the sores and boils he has. Uncleanness is not always caused by sin although sin always causes "uncleanness." Job is speaking of himself not being able to bring clean out of himself as he is in a state of uncleanness. Job is not speaking about sin here except in its effect on a man's life span. In context and in the original language this verse does not support the notion of man being born sinful

We are born with an artificially reduced lifespan. And along with that comes various birth defects and propensity for diseases. No we are not born with and artificially shortened life span. Due to our continued stubborn rebellion against HaShem, He put a limit on our days- Gen 6:3 But that was not always the case.
Perhaps this is when it was appointed once to men to die.

The reversal is what is promised by means of the ransom Please explain more fully and what verses you base your thoughts on. I do not quite understand what you are trying to say.

And no resident (or "inhabitant.") (of Yerusalem) will say: "I am sick."
The people dwelling in the land (eretz Israel) will be pardoned for their error.
And how does this relate to a ransom? - Isaiah 33:24