Do we play a roll in our Salvation?

[TheKnight]

Thanks for the Link, I corresponded with a reformed Jew in another forum so I new of the seven laws of Moses, very interesting Moses was a good teacher and wise leader. I take it that your answer is yes we do play a roll in our Salvation from the misguidance of the world in which we live, that I understand bring a separation from Him and His divine Law. What are the consequence of rejecting G-D Laws?

You mean Seven Laws of Noah.

Salvation from the misguidance of the world in which we live...Hmm, I'm not sure I quite understand that. We are the world. Where the world "guides" us depends on where we tell it to go. So in that respect, we do have a hand in how the world operates.

Consequence of rejecting God's laws? I wouldn't know. I wouldn't be so sure that there are obvious consequences. Following a particular ethical system is a lot like knowing something. You don't have to know it, but when you do you know something, it enriches your life. Are there consequences? If you consider not following His law to be a consequence in itself then there are. After all, one cannot know the sweetness of an orange unless one partakes of an orange. God's law is the same, one cannot know how beautiful it is to serve the Lord when one has not done it. Does everyone need that sweetness? I believe so, but do they have to find it from my particular orange? After all, sugar from an apple is just as sweet.

 

[emiliano]

This way of reasoning can work for any belief system. If I assert that unicorns really literally exist I could say I have searched and searched until there is no doubt in my mind that unicorns exist and so I have reached the stage where I KNOW unicorns exist and if any says they don't believe it I just say to them "you have a reprobate mind and have not been given the gift to perceive that unicorns exist". And if anyone still disputes me I'll say "your belief is true for you but it is not for me". That is a neat system you go there, Emiliano

That's it! it is as I said a very special kind of knowledge, there are people that believe in unicorns they have knowledge of them, as I said the reason for some not to believe in God is because God has not reveled Himself to them in a infallible way, He does not want them but If God in Mercy would want them He would draw them to Him other way they are not His people and He is not their God.

 

[emiliano]

You mean Seven Laws of Noah.

Salvation from the misguidance of the world in which we live...Hmm, I'm not sure I quite understand that. We are the world. Where the world "guides" us depends on where we tell it to go. So in that respect, we do have a hand in how the world operates.

Consequence of rejecting God's laws? I wouldn't know. I wouldn't be so sure that there are obvious consequences. Following a particular ethical system is a lot like knowing something. You don't have to know it, but when you do you know something, it enriches your life. Are there consequences? If you consider not following His law to be a consequence in itself then there are. After all, one cannot know the sweetness of an orange unless one partakes of an orange. God's law is the same, one cannot know how beautiful it is to serve the Lord when one has not done it. Does everyone need that sweetness? I believe so, but do they have to find it from my particular orange? After all, sugar from an apple is just as sweet.

Well it was Moses that gave the Laws and he taught the story of Noah.
The seven Laws and the world:
It is the world (outside secular world) that preaches against the Law

1. BELIEF IN G-D
Do not worship Idols
The secular world preaches atheism and worship money, flags, other men, social position, their jobs, etc.
2. RESPECT G-D AND PRAISE HIM
Do Not Blaspheme His Name
Fat chance of that happening in the secular world
3. RESPECT HUMAN LIFE
Do Not Murder
Abortion. Euthanasia, No much of that out there either
4. RESPECT THE FAMILY
Do Not Commit Immoral Sexual Acts
Not a chance of controlling that with any Law the world seems to have the upper hand.
5. RESPECT FOR OTHERS’ RIGHTS AND PROPERTY
Do Not Steal
Same, the right to self improvement at any cost supersede this Law
6. CREATION OF A JUDICIAL SYSTEM
Pursue Justice
The secular world is constantly changing them to allowed them to break God’s Laws
7. RESPECT ALL CREATURES
Do not be cruel to animals
We and the secular world seem to be doing well in this area. One out seven to the secular world and it seems that unless G-d is moved to Mercy we are pretty hopeless we need His help, we better seek Him while He can be found and He is a merciful God.

 

[TheKnight]

Well it was Moses that gave the Laws and he taught the story of Noah.
The seven Laws and the world:
It is the world (outside secular world) that preaches against the Law

1. BELIEF IN G-D
Do not worship Idols
The secular world preaches atheism and worship money, flags, other men, social position, their jobs, etc.
2. RESPECT G-D AND PRAISE HIM
Do Not Blaspheme His Name
Fat chance of that happening in the secular world
3. RESPECT HUMAN LIFE
Do Not Murder
Abortion. Euthanasia, No much of that out there either
4. RESPECT THE FAMILY
Do Not Commit Immoral Sexual Acts
Not a chance of controlling that with any Law the world seems to have the upper hand.
5. RESPECT FOR OTHERS’ RIGHTS AND PROPERTY
Do Not Steal
Same, the right to self improvement at any cost supersede this Law
6. CREATION OF A JUDICIAL SYSTEM
Pursue Justice
The secular world is constantly changing them to allowed them to break God’s Laws
7. RESPECT ALL CREATURES
Do not be cruel to animals
We and the secular world seem to be doing well in this area. One out seven to the secular world and it seems that unless G-d is moved to Mercy we are pretty hopeless we need His help, we better seek Him while He can be found and He is a merciful God.

I'm not sure what the purpose of this response is...To show how the world doesn't follow these laws? I already know that. The best thing we Noahides can do is to try and fight for fair and open legislation that will allow for multiple belief systems but at the same time keep these laws as the foundation. America has done quite a good job at this and many opinions consider America to be the first modern Noahide nation. America isn't perfect, but it's the closest country (that I've seen) that (within its constitution) almost perfectly embodies the Noahide laws.

 

[emiliano]

I'm not sure what the purpose of this response is...To show how the world doesn't follow these laws? I already know that. The best thing we Noahides can do is to try and fight for fair and open legislation that will allow for multiple belief systems but at the same time keep these laws as the foundation. America has done quite a good job at this and many opinions consider America to be the first modern Noahide nation. America isn't perfect, but it's the closest country (that I've seen) that (within its constitution) almost perfectly embodies the Noahide laws.

I picked on your response to my statement “Salvation from the misguidance of the world in which we live". You replied; Hmm, I'm not sure I quite understand that. We are the world. Where the world "guides" us depends on where we tell it to go. So in that respect, we do have a hand in how the world operates.
I disagree with this because of the fact that in our earthly passage (I believe in an after-life and resurrection) it is the world that guides us and not us it.
You ask: To show how the world doesn't follow these laws?
Exactly and the main culprit and is sad but is United States which bring to memory King David’s Psalm 2 and how the rulers (supreme courts) take counsel against God and His Laws (same sex marriages, abortion and euthanasia legalizing the selling and consumption of mind altering drugs) “America has done quite a good job at this and many opinions consider America to be the first modern Noahide nation” You are kidding, right?
But it's the closest country (that I've seen) that (within its constitution) almost perfectly embodies the Noahide laws.
You must be kidding. Salvation is from the influences of the world.

Psa 2:1
Why do the nations rage, And the people plot a vain thing?
Psa 2:2
The kings of the earth set themselves, And the rulers take counsel together, Against the LORD and against His Anointed, [saying],
Psa 2:3
"Let us break Their bonds in pieces And cast away Their cords from us." ​

 

[TheKnight]

I disagree with this because of the fact that in our earthly passage (I believe in an after-life and resurrection) it is the world that guides us and not us it.

The world is not sentient. We, humanity, are the ones who are in control of what happens to and what happens on our planet. We are the ones who are able to make decisions affecting out planet. The fact that we will die and rise again does not mean that we are able to forgo our responsibility to cultivate this planet.

Exactly and the main culprit and is sad but is United States which bring to memory King David’s Psalm 2 and how the rulers (supreme courts) take counsel against God and His Laws (same sex marriages, abortion and euthanasia legalizing the selling and consumption of mind altering drugs)

It's understandable that you oppose those things, but do you understand why you oppose them? I am 100% against euthanasia, however I recognize that passive euthanasia is moral. I am also anti-abortion, however if a woman will be harmed by her child then she should not be forced to lose her life for the sake of the child. The Bible does not anywhere prohibit consumption of mind-altering drugs. While I believe that homosexuality is wrong, there is no reason why a homosexual (or even two unmarried straight people) cannot enjoy the rights and privileges afforded to a man and woman by marriage.

You must be kidding. Salvation is from the influences of the world.

You are a prime example of the Christianity I left. You are anti-world.

As I said, America isn't perfect, but our nation is trying. Though we may slip, we still have the best country in the world, the best constitution in the world, and the most moral foreign policies (though those too are corrupted) of any major ruling power in history. You focus on the bad of our country, but that doesn't help anything. We must recognize and encourage the good.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Possibly. I'd say probably, given we play a roll in everything that happens to us.

I believe that we do. What’s your take on the subject and what are the bases for your belief?

My personal take on the subject is, if Heaven and Hell really exist, for personal reasons I'd rather be in Hell with Satan than being stuck worshipping God in Heaven for eternity.

 

[ProphecyKid]

Yes we do play a role. Our role begins with giving over our lives to God because what we need to do cannot be done unless God works in us. Giving God control of our life and allowing him to keep control takes effort on our part. We are not naturally good. We naturally would do the wrong thing. What Jesus would have us do, we would rather do the opposite. God cannot force his will upon us and that is where we come in. We must subject our will to God. The bible says that if any man come after Jesus let him deny himself and follow him. It means you must deny yourself, your desires, your passions, and sacrifice them for the will of God. That is the role we play. After we do that God uses us to do his will.

Phi 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

 

[emiliano]

The world is not sentient. We, humanity, are the ones who are in control of what happens to and what happens on our planet. We are the ones who are able to make decisions affecting out planet. The fact that we will die and rise again does not mean that we are able to forgo our responsibility to cultivate this planet.
It's understandable that you oppose those things, but do you understand why you oppose them? I am 100% against euthanasia, however I recognize that passive euthanasia is moral. I am also anti-abortion, however if a woman will be harmed by her child then she should not be forced to lose her life for the sake of the child. The Bible does not anywhere prohibit consumption of mind-altering drugs. While I believe that homosexuality is wrong, there is no reason why a homosexual (or even two unmarried straight people) cannot enjoy the rights and privileges afforded to a man and woman by marriage.
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You are a prime example of the Christianity I left. You are anti-world.
As I said, America isn't perfect, but our nation is trying. Though we may slip, we still have the best country in the world, the best constitution in the world, and the most moral foreign policies (though those too are corrupted) of any major ruling power in history. You focus on the bad of our country, but that doesn't help anything. We must recognize and encourage the good.

I know a country that is far more advanced in it closeness to the law, a country that does not have other god beside the only true God by legislating accordingly to it, a mostly Christian nation that worship God, that protect the right to life of the unborn and the terminally ill, respect family and property, respect all creature and have equal opportunities for all, we are doing more than a tat better than you although that I do respect you opinions but don’t make idols of these things. After all most countries have a constitution the clearly spells out it call to encompass these laws, it always strike me that Americans base their interpretation of your right in what is not in it than what it is, and you are applying it even to scripture “The Bible does not anywhere prohibit consumption of mind-altering drugs”. Now if you know scripture you will know that it does clearly addresses this issue as an evil.

Deu 6:5
You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.​

Heart stands for mind and if one’s mind is altered, how can you do it with your all?
Here is an example of altered mind in the OT:

Hsa 7:14
They did not cry out to Me with their heart When they wailed upon their beds. "They assemble together for grain and new wine, They rebel against Me;
Luk 10:27
So he answered and said, "'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,' and 'your neighbor as yourself.' " ​

You are right the good in anything must be encouraged, what about the evil things of the world? In what way can this done? Keeping silence? Worshiping what is imperfect or what is perfect? IMO. Is the world or God!

 

[emiliano]

Possibly. I'd say probably, given we play a roll in everything that happens to us.

My personal take on the subject is, if Heaven and Hell really exist, for personal reasons I'd rather be in Hell with Satan than being stuck worshipping God in Heaven for eternity.

Are you presently worshiping either of them? Do you think that if you choose Satan over God you will be free form worshiping?

 

[Keith]

I believe that we do. What’s your take on the subject and what are the bases for your belief?

We can only be saved by the Grace of Lord Jesus that is fact. Sadly many evangelicals today teach that all are saved by the death of Jesus on the cross and therefore the Ten Moral Commandments of God no longer apply.

This obviates the need for all individual souls to totally repent before Jesus will save them. When saved the Holy Spirit will then help the saved soul to keep the 10 Commandments.

When challenged they usually quote Paul and state that we cannot keep the 10 which ignores the number of times repentance is stressed in the bible as a necessity for salvation.

Thus my ‘take on the subject’ is that absolute sincere repentance is the ONLY role we must play in our step to salvation. Only then does the Grace of the Lord Jesus save us.

The basis of my belief is this is what Lord Jesus demanded of me and that it is confirmed in scripture.

Keith

 

[emiliano]

We can only be saved by the Grace of Lord Jesus that is fact. Sadly many evangelicals today teach that all are saved by the death of Jesus on the cross and therefore the Ten Moral Commandments of God no longer apply.

This obviates the need for all individual souls to totally repent before Jesus will save them. When saved the Holy Spirit will then help the saved soul to keep the 10 Commandments.

When challenged they usually quote Paul and state that we cannot keep the 10 which ignores the number of times repentance is stressed in the bible as a necessity for salvation.

Thus my ‘take on the subject’ is that absolute sincere repentance is the ONLY role we must play in our step to salvation. Only then does the Grace of the Lord Jesus save us.

The basis of my belief is this is what Lord Jesus demanded of me and that it is confirmed in scripture.

Keith

Thanks for your response, you are absolutely but what is missing is that we are saved through Faith, repentance is necessary (actually essential) but unless the repentant sinner believe (has faith) it will not happen.