Do We Really Need This Kind of Bigotry?

[CynthiaCypher]

But you're using a different set of facts.
We're all really objecting to each other's "facts".

She converted to Islam, that makes her a Muslim right?

 

[metis]

And I'm Indian. You really expect me to go about this whole thing without a bargaining war ? You must be out 'ya mind, son !

And 40/60 should do the trick. The 60 being your half.

Son! How old are you??? I'm 69. :thud:

 

[Alceste]

So basically the gist I get is...

It's not bigotry to HAVE a (religious) culture, but it is bigotry to want to PRESERVE it- especially so if you are European whitey or a Jew. And it's bigoted to not see the rules and customs of other (religious) communities as equally applicable as yours to people in your respective community. Yeah, sounds very "multicultural" and "pluralistic" and not at all like culturicide via cultural Marxism. And then people on the left of the political spectrum are scratching their heads wondering why right-wing views have begun to gain traction amongst Jews and Europeans

Not quite. It isn't bigotry to have a culture OR to want to preserve it. It's bigotry to perceive mingling or breeding with outsiders as an existential threat to the survival of your culture.

Culture is a meme. You don't need to make new people and indoctrinate them from birth in a fortified enclave to preserve it. The culture itself will attract and absorb those who are best suited to it. Even cultures that totally suck, like Islamic extremism, tend to attract new members. Cultures that are pretty good, like secular liberalism, attract more, but minority cultures are in no danger of extinction if left unmolested.

 

[Revoltingest]

I observe that the Jews I know IRL preserve their culture not by excluding or
restricting anyone, but by including & inspiring their kids in their religion/culture.
This kind of preservation looks fine, & free of both gluten & bigotry.

 

[dantech]

That is imposing, you are setting upon her a definition she does not abide by. That is imposition. She is a Muslim practicing Islam period. She is not pretending to be a Muslim, she is not just merely believing she is a Muslim, she is in fact a Muslim. The facts are,she is a Muslim. You are the one who is doing the believing not her. I am just sticking to the facts.

I never said she was pretending to be a Muslim. She is sincerely practicing Islam. I on the other hand, still view her as a Jew. My holy scripture which I believe comes from perfection teaches me that it is impossible to not be Jewish when you were once a Jew. So, to me, she is still a Jew. I don't see why you see this as anything bad. It also means to me that her kids will be Jewish. I'd have no objection towards my children marrying hers, regarding religion.

You could say I'm wrong. You could say I'm delusional. I just think that this woman is still Jewish. And I don't think that makes me a bigot, or someone that is imposing something on her.

 

[Poeticus]

Son! How old are you??? I'm 69. :thud:

Oops. And I'm 23 years old.

 

[Phil25]

Will there kids be considered Jews? AFAIK, if someone's mother is a Jew, then regardless of who the father is, the child is considered Jewish.

 

[Alceste]

I never said she was pretending to be a Muslim. She is sincerely practicing Islam. I on the other hand, still view her as a Jew. My holy scripture which I believe comes from perfection teaches me that it is impossible to not be Jewish when you were once a Jew. So, to me, she is still a Jew. I don't see why you see this as anything bad. It also means to me that her kids will be Jewish. I'd have no objection towards my children marrying hers, regarding religion.

You could say I'm wrong. You could say I'm delusional. I just think that this woman is still Jewish. And I don't think that makes me a bigot, or someone that is imposing something on her.

I have an old friend who was female when we met and is now male. Continuing to believe he is "really" still a female would be exceptionally rude by most people's standards.

It's not trivial for us to accept the identities the people we love choose for themselves. Failing to do so causes all sorts of unnecessary anguish and pointless drama. Hell, in some cases it even breaks families apart.

IMO, this poor woman's father deciding to hate her husband "because he is an Arab" is the absolute WORST possible strategy for keeping her interested and engaged with the Jewish heritage, family and community she grew up with. It's the OPPOSITE of a strategy that would inspire her to teach her children about the culture of her own childhood.

We (primates) teach and learn by example. If we're jerks, who in their right mind is going to want to be like us, or show their children how to be like us, except maybe other jerks?

 

[metis]

No one is forcing her to engage in Judaism or to force her to say she's even "Jewish". She's married, some don't like it, some do, and life goes on.

 

[xkatz]

It's bigotry to perceive mingling or breeding with outsiders as an existential threat to the survival of your culture.

I mingle w/ "outsiders". I believe that "breeding w/ outsiders" is ok if they convert/join the community, or even to a lesser extent if they intend to give the children a Jewish upbringing and education.

Cultures that are pretty good, like secular liberalism, attract more, but minority cultures are in no danger of extinction if left unmolested.

Secular liberalism though tends to encourage people to leave their culture and/or community b/c it looks down upon values contradictory to it (like any other culture, admittedly). So in that sense, it is somewhat problematic.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

I never said she was pretending to be a Muslim. She is sincerely practicing Islam. I on the other hand, still view her as a Jew. My holy scripture which I believe comes from perfection teaches me that it is impossible to not be Jewish when you were once a Jew. So, to me, she is still a Jew. I don't see why you see this as anything bad. It also means to me that her kids will be Jewish. I'd have no objection towards my children marrying hers, regarding religion.

You could say I'm wrong. You could say I'm delusional. I just think that this woman is still Jewish. And I don't think that makes me a bigot, or someone that is imposing something on her.

But she is not Jewish religiously, so this makes it about something else. If she is not Jewish religiously, then what makes her Jewish? Is it ethnicity?

 

[MD]

The Jews have existed for thousands of years, and will continue to exist for thousands more. Western liberalism will not last another 100 years, it will die out since most of them have no kids. There should be more proselytizing by Judaism, heavy proselytizing.

I come from a small community which has adopted this no intermarriage rule, but it's not very smart and it's being totally rejected by my generation. Aside from Middle Eastern heritage, we have a considerable amount of South Asian, Mongol and East African mix. The no intermarriage rule cannot work in a world like ours, which is highly dynamic and changing. I've met ex-Muslims Iranians who know more about my faith than I do.

The Jewish community has a good amount of mix as well, and if it has worked for so long it can continue to work for longer. Proselytize away.

 

[Levite]

No, we will tolerate (and I actually am a big fan of the state of Israel continuing to exist) Jews who are okay with live and let live. Claiming being born a Jew obligates you to that form of worship is no different than the disfellowship crap the JWs throw around.

Is this really that hard to understand? If someone doesn't believe, they are allowed to quit. If that's a problem, then you're a bigot.

Being a Jew comes with obligations. No one should be forced to fulfill those obligations, they should be free to reject them if they choose. But they cannot do so and still claim participatory rights in the Jewish community, or claim that they have done nothing wrong.

If this woman or those like her decide they want to be Muslim or Christian or anything else, they should not be prevented from doing so. But they should expect being cut off from the Jewish People while they do so, and should be prepared for knowing they have transgressed the laws of their people and let their people down. If that doesn't bother them, then they should have happy lives.

 

[metis]

Being "Jewish" is a nationality that only has some limited religious connection to Judaism. With the latter, Torah teaches that if one converts to Judaism, they become one with the Jewish people-- iow, "family". Why is this viewed this way? For a couple of reasons, with one being so that a convert is treated equally as if they were Jewish all their life. IOW, no double-standards for converts v those born as Jews.

Secondly, the Mosaiic Law is mandated for Jews, not gentiles. Thus if one converts to Judaism, they become bound by the Law as if they're born Jewish.

Thirdly, if one as a Jew, convert or not, wishes to leave Judaism and not consider themselves to be Jewish, that clearly is their choice.

Fourthly, with the above, not all of us as Jews, including those of us that are "observant" (however defined), agree on all of this, and in Israel most Jews are secular.

Gotta go.

 

[Alceste]

I mingle w/ "outsiders". I believe that "breeding w/ outsiders" is ok if they convert/join the community, or even to a lesser extent if they intend to give the children a Jewish upbringing and education.

Secular liberalism though tends to encourage people to leave their culture and/or community b/c it looks down upon values contradictory to it (like any other culture, admittedly). So in that sense, it is somewhat problematic.

Secular liberalism encourages people to freely choose their own way of life, their own religion, their own culture, their own people. It discourages the state from interfering with these choices, allowing most cultures to flourish unmolested. It encourages people to be tolerant and accepting of others who have made different choices. That includes people who have made conservative or religious choices.

Yes, I am not religious, but I don't "look down on" people because simply because their values are different from mine. I reject values that are irrational or unethical, or have empirically verifiable destructive real world consequences. Again, values, not people. Lots of folks have different values from mine. (Actually, given my position on the political spectrum, almost everybody does.) I value their lives and freedoms as much as my own, and would actively work to protect those lives and freedoms if necessary.

The one exception to this general rule is people who engage in violence against others. For them, I have very little respect. I hope that they will either reap what they sow or have a massive epiphany and change of heart.

 

[Poeticus]

The Jews have existed for thousands of years, and will continue to exist for thousands more. Western liberalism will not last another 100 years, it will die out since most of them have no kids. There should be more proselytizing by Judaism, heavy proselytizing.

I come from a small community which has adopted this no intermarriage rule, but it's not very smart and it's being totally rejected by my generation. Aside from Middle Eastern heritage, we have a considerable amount of South Asian, Mongol and East African mix. The no intermarriage rule cannot work in a world like ours, which is highly dynamic and changing. I've met ex-Muslims Iranians who know more about my faith than I do.

The Jewish community has a good amount of mix as well, and if it has worked for so long it can continue to work for longer. Proselytize away.

The most important question: why is Sanaya Irani so beautiful ?

Spoiler

 

[MD]

The most important question: why is Sanaya Irani so beautiful ?

Spoiler

Lol I don't find most Parsi girls pretty. =/

 

[xkatz]

The Jews have existed for thousands of years, and will continue to exist for thousands more. Western liberalism will not last another 100 years, it will die out since most of them have no kids. There should be more proselytizing by Judaism, heavy proselytizing.

I come from a small community which has adopted this no intermarriage rule, but it's not very smart and it's being totally rejected by my generation. Aside from Middle Eastern heritage, we have a considerable amount of South Asian, Mongol and East African mix. The no intermarriage rule cannot work in a world like ours, which is highly dynamic and changing. I've met ex-Muslims Iranians who know more about my faith than I do.

The Jewish community has a good amount of mix as well, and if it has worked for so long it can continue to work for longer. Proselytize away.

I do not really either condone nor condemn the idea of proselytization. Judaism is a faith which recognizes that people are different enough from one another that the world will never be united under the guise of a single monolithic religious organization. I think as such it doesn't really make much sense to explicitly desire mass conversions. Also, I think it's better that people turn to Judaism on their own volition rather than through peer-pressure. And I don't see many people who'd be willing to convert due to people's misconceptions of Judaism (as seen on this forum) as well as the fact that there still is deeply-rooted anti-Semitism in many places. I think what is needed is better education on what Judaism is for both Jews and non-Jews alike.

Also, Jewish customs are a bit different than the Parsi ones I am assuming you're speaking of- Jewish communities never disallow people from converting and the marriage laws are less stringent AFAIK.

 

[MD]

I do not really either condone nor condemn the idea of proselytization. Judaism is a faith which recognizes that people are different enough from one another that the world will never be united under the guise of a single monolithic religious organization. I think as such it doesn't really make much sense to explicitly desire mass conversions. Also, I think it's better that people turn to Judaism on their own volition rather than through peer-pressure. And I don't see many people who'd be willing to convert due to people's misconceptions of Judaism (as seen on this forum) as well as the fact that there still is deeply-rooted anti-Semitism in many places. I think what is needed is better education on what Judaism is for both Jews and non-Jews alike.

Also, Jewish customs are a bit different than the Parsi ones I am assuming you're speaking of- Jewish communities never disallow people from converting and the marriage laws are less stringent AFAIK.

But then how can Judaism compete with other more highly aggressive proselytizing faiths in the region?

 

[Poeticus]

Lol I don't find most Parsi girls pretty. =/

Blasphemy ! A stroll through malls in Surat or even through Parsi communities in Mumbai should dispel such heretical thoughts ! I would have gladly converted if I had met and fell in love with a Sanaya (just replace Bhagwan w/ Ahura Mazda; Indo-Iranian heritage still the same); but can that duffer Mohit Sehgal say the same ?! :sad: