Do We Really Need This Kind of Bigotry?

[MD]

Blasphemy ! A stroll through malls in Surat or even through Parsi communities in Mumbai should dispel such heretical thoughts ! I would have gladly converted if I had met and fell in love with a Sanaya (just replace Bhagwan w/ Ahura Mazda; Indo-Iranian heritage still the same); but can that duffer Mohit Sehgal say the same ?! :sad:

Most Parsis don't care in India, liberalism destroyed us and we will be gone in a century or so. Plus the priests are idiots. Our future lies in the Middle East, if we have one.

 

[Prophet]

Change through democratic elections equal mob rule. Gotcha.

That in mind we should probably abolish democracy.

I would just say that we should admit where democracy is lacking. True democracy is not an effective form of government where the public lacks education. It's flawed because an uneducated public will eventually fall prey to demagoguery. The Roman republic ended because Julius Caesar and others that followed exploited mob rule to strengthen their influence.

In tense situations, when you have factions calling for the death of other factions, I would hope that somehow a mature adult is in charge rather than the tough-guy norm of Netanyahu and Putin.

You actually wrote this to a jew. Hilarious.

A jew who is okay with the rights of others being stolen is just another bigot. Give such jews the weapons that Germans had and they'd become Nazi-like in no time.

Yes letting each Religion handle their own marriages is bigotry. Especially in a place where tensions along these Religions are high.

Great logic. 10/10

It is bigoted to allocate human rights based upon religion or ethnicity. It is bigoted to look at viewpoints that conflict with your own as the problem with the world.

 

[Poeticus]

Most Parsis don't care in India, liberalism destroyed us and we will be gone in a century or so. Plus the priests are idiots. Our future lies in the Middle East, if we have one.

No, I refuse to accept this doomsday prophecy ! You fools ! Return to Surat and even the northern areas of Gujarat. And prosper socio-culturally once more ! Plus, we should have carom nights on Friday with lots and lots of dholka-s. Do we have terms ? And don't worry about the idiotic priests. Just come for the carom nights if you have to.

 

[xkatz]

But then how can Judaism compete with other more highly aggressive proselytizing faiths in the region?

TBH, I don't have a simple answer to this. From what I've seen IRL and online, a fair number of people convert to Judaism where there are sizeable and robust communities (Tarheeler and jewscout on this forum come to mind). It has helped create some growth and popularity in the USA and Canada of Judaism. I agree with Alceste (oddly enough) on this- if people "like it", they'll join. I don't think proselytization will work well outside of Israel and the Anglo-sphere due to the communities being relatively small (as well as prevalent anti-semitism in places like France or Arab countries). And while I am not overly optimistic, the Jews were able to survive the aggressive Hellenism of Alexander and Rome, as well as the pogroms of Christendom, so at least I am not a pessimist

Like I said, if Jews can teach what Judaism is in a fair manner, I think people would be more inclined to consider conversion if they want it.

 

[MD]

No, I refuse to accept this doomsday prophecy ! You fools ! Return to Surat and even the northern areas of Gujarat. And prosper socio-culturally once more ! Plus, we should have carom nights on Friday with lots and lots of dholka-s. Do we have terms ? And don't worry about the idiotic priests. Just come for the carom nights if you have to.

Most of the Parsi towns in Gujarat are empty and most of the property has been bought by Muslim Gujaratis, the fastest growing religion in Gujarat and India. In Mumbai many are marrying out.

The demographics are changing. Zoroastrianism may continue on in Iran, but in India Parsis are done. Too much backwards mentality with the wrong things and too much liberalism with the wrong things.

I haven't played Carrom in years, but the dokhlas are nice.

 

[MD]

TBH, I don't have a simple answer to this. From what I've seen IRL and online, a fair number of people convert to Judaism where there are sizeable and robust communities (Tarheeler and jewscout on this forum come to mind). It has helped create some growth and popularity in the USA of Judaism. I agree with Alceste (oddly enough) on this- if people "like it", they'll join. I don't think proselytization will work well outside of Israel and the Anglo-sphere due to the communities being relatively small. And while I am not overly optimistic, the Jews were able to survive the aggressive Hellenism of Alexander and Rome, as well as the pogroms of Christendom, so at least I am not a pessimist

Like I said, if Jews can teach what Judaism is in an fair manner, I think people would be more inclined to consider conversion if they want it.

In a fair and free world I would completely agree with you, but our world is not like that. Proselytizing is a good counter to other more aggressive faiths in the region. It works. You ever wonder why thousands of white muslim converts have joined ISIS and other Islamist groups?

Judaism won't die out, but it will definitely have big challenges in coming decades in the Middle East. One of them will be the expansion of Islam and especially the political movements of Islamism. Some of the descendants of this woman will hate Israel. I've met a few Pakistanis whose grandmas were Hindu but converted to Islam and now they dislike Hinduism and India.

 

[Poeticus]

Most of the Parsi towns in Gujarat are empty and most of the property has been bought by Muslim Gujaratis, the fastest growing religion in Gujarat and India. In Mumbai many are marrying out.

The demographics are changing. Zoroastrianism may continue on in Iran, but in India Parsis are done. Too much backwards mentality with the wrong things and too much liberalism with the wrong things.

I haven't played Carrom in years, but the dokhlas are nice.

Why do you have to do this to me ? :sad: That's it. We're done. :sad4: I'll watch Rang Rasiya by myself.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

I mingle w/ "outsiders". I believe that "breeding w/ outsiders" is ok if they convert/join the community, or even to a lesser extent if they intend to give the children a Jewish upbringing and education.

Secular liberalism though tends to encourage people to leave their culture and/or community b/c it looks down upon values contradictory to it (like any other culture, admittedly). So in that sense, it is somewhat problematic.

Just as said that more religious Jews are becoming conservative. Well guess what? More and more young Jews are coming to embrace secular liberalism. They don't seem to be embracing conservatism to me.

Study Shows Jews in America Becoming More Secular, Especially Millenials - World Religion News

 

[xkatz]

In a fair and free world I would completely agree with you, but our world is not like that. Proselytizing is a good counter to other more aggressive faiths in the region. It works. You ever wonder why thousands of white muslim converts have joined ISIS and other Islamist groups?

I think you make a fair point. But OTOH, Jews don't have Saudi oil money nor a 1.5 billion person Ummah to back up such efforts. A strong Jewish education is what's needed ATM.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

And what exactly gives you the supposed right to tell people in another country what kind of laws they must have? The above is nothing less than ethnocentrism on steroids.

What is this, the Twilight Zone? You people must be posting from a parallel universe where calling out bigotry is "bigotry" and "ethnocentrism". Something wrong with you people. It's scary.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

You people must be posting from a parallel universe where ....

"You people"

 

[xkatz]

Just as said that more religious Jews are becoming conservative. Well guess what? More and more young Jews are coming to embrace secular liberalism. They don't seem to be embracing conservatism to me.

Study Shows Jews in America Becoming More Secular, Especially Millenials - World Religion News

As someone who is an IRL Jewish person who is often involved in the Jewish community, I have seen many Jews moving rightward, including myself. And I'm speaking of the political spectrum, not the observance spectrum necessarily. Many of these secular people will not probably not even attempt to give their children a decent Jewish upbringing, sadly.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

"You people"

Don't play that card, because "you people" isn't only referring to some Jewish posters in this thread.

 

[George-ananda]

Miscegenation laws are the government interfering in personal choice. Probably everyone here agrees that is bad.

But I don't have a problem with people of a group having social conventions about marriage. You can't say I'm part of religion Z and do and believe anything you want and expect other members of religion Z to call you a member of religion Z.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Don't play that card, because "you people" isn't only referring to some Jewish posters in this thread.

The same person who once implied that black people who live in Ferguson don't really understand what it means to live in a police state wants to play the race card? How quaint of him.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Miscegenation laws are the government interfering in personal choice. Probably everyone here agrees that is bad.

But I don't have a problem with people of a group having social conventions about marriage. You can't say I'm part of religion Z and do and believe anything you want and expect other members of religion Z to call you a member of religion Z.

That is all fine and dandy but religion z has no right to impose even a label upon nor to discriminate against those who leave religion z.

 

[oldbadger]

I think several people have already expressed much of what I might say. But in the interests of clarity, my opposition to intermarriage is strictly concerning the marriage of Jews to non-Jews. What non-Jews do amongst themselves concerning the customs, ritual laws, and cultural practices of marriage is not my business, or the business of any Jew.

Intermarriage between Jews and non-Jews is significant for two reasons: one is that we are prohibited by our religion from marrying people who are not Jewish. The other is that when Jews do intermarry, the result is not only chaos because of the uncertainties introduced into our community vis-a-vis identity and affiliation, but also because the vast majority of intermarriages reflect assimilation of Jews into the secular culture, and intermarriage tends not to help this problem. The children of intermarriages are not Jewish if the Jewish spouse is the male; but even when the children are Jewish (the Jewish spouse being the female), intermarried families tend to either give children weak Jewish identities and vastly insufficient Jewish education and experience, or no Jewish identity at all.

In other words, it eats away at the fabric of Jewish existence. Some intermarriages actually lead to the formal apostasy of the Jewish spouse (such as the one apparently being protested in the OP article), which is not only a sin in Jewish religious teaching, but it is of course an even more violent ripping away at Jewish existence. But even the intermarriages that don't lead to apostasy overwhelmingly lead to secularist assimilation.

Judaism is a socioreligious ethnicity (ethnicity not in a racial sense but in a cultural sense): that is to say, it is an identity which incorporates elements of religion, of nationality, and of culture-- all inextricably linked with each other. Intermarriage not only transgresses the religion, it aids in destroying the culture as a whole, since Jewish identity requires not only blood belonging or adoption (i.e., conversion), but to be functional and meaningfully effective additionally requires education and experience of living a Jewish life. This nearly never occurs with intermarriages. The one or two examples of intermarried families I have encountered where it did occur, the non-Jewish spouse eventually converted to Judaism.

The requirement of endogamy has nothing to do with superiority or inferiority, nothing to do with wishing to exclude certain types or races or whatnot. It has to do with the Jewish People being preserved, with Jewish culture and religion continuing and with the Jewish family being a stabilizing and cohering force to keep the Jewish People and our tradition alive and effective.

If a non-Jew and a Jew wish to marry, Judaism provides a way to facilitate that happening: the non-Jew can convert to Judaism.

It's pretty to talk about love conquering all, but the truth is that everyone in any given society has responsibilities outside themselves and their own desires. No one should force a Jew to marry or not marry whoever they want using violence, abusive language, or public humiliation. But to be a Jew is to have responsibilities to the Jewish People, to our covenant with God, to our tradition, to our future. Those responsibilities can transcend even the romantic desires of our hearts. If a Jew chooses to marry a non-Jew, they must live with the knowledge of the wrong they are doing to the Jewish People and the Jewish tradition, and they must accept the consequences of their actions (their children not being Jews, their spouse being unable to participate in Jewish observance and ritual, etc.).

I don't say this lightly. Twice in my life, I was involved with a non-Jewish woman I loved and would have married. Both times, the woman refused to convert, and we ended the relationship. I accepted my heartbreak as the price of being faithful to the responsibilities I have to my people and my God; the women, being the excellent individuals they were, understood, respected, and supported my stance. It was hard, and so I know what I mean when I say this is what responsible Judaism can sometimes ask of us; but it would have been utterly selfish to do otherwise.

I can imagine that some of those who have expressed criticism (or intolerant vituperation) of the rejection of intermarriage do so because they believe in some sort of universalism, likely of the sort that makes light or condemns boundaries such as cultural or national divisions, or perhaps even religious divisions. Thus, any reason of identity affiliation that would prevent two people from being together is deemed offensive.

Personally, I think universalism of that sort is foolish. It devalues the uniqueness and specialness of our differences. I am much more interested in pluralism: wherein the different cultures, nationalities, ethnicities, etc. are valued for their singular and remarkable variations and individual natures, and each is tolerated.

If my desire and my dedication to preserve my people, my culture, and my religious tradition is unacceptable to you (whoever you are), so be it. I can live with that just fine. Feel free to call me whatever names you like because of it. But my people have struggled to persist through literally millennia of war, oppression, subjugation, attempts at genocide, and centuries of attempts to force us to assimilate or apostasize. We did it by sticking together, by valuing our culture, our religion, our tradition, and by reinforcing the responsibilities we have to one another over our own selfish desires. Like many of my colleagues, I work hard to counter with education and inspiration the soft threat of secular assimilation and spiritual apathy that is besetting our community; if part of that is having to get called stupid names by people for trying to keep my people going into the future, I assure you, I will not lose a moment of sleep over it.

I wrote a long reply. But.......
It's better if the membership read yours one more time and draw its own conclusions.
Maybe it might be better if more relaxed members of your religion represent Judaism to the World?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

That is all fine and dandy but religion z has no right to impose even a label upon nor to discriminate against those who leave religion z.

You also should be ALLOWED to leave "religion Z", too. People should have the right to free association.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Actually, having visited that same nameless website myself, white supremacists don't argue that "nobody is good enough" to marry white people. They subscribe to the belief that everyone should stick to their own kind. Separate but equal. Because otherwise white culture (and every other culture) will eventually be overwhelmed and assimilated into a great homogeneous, dusky, dark-haired Borg.

Hey, us mixed folks are sexier than that! Join us!

 

[George-ananda]

That is all fine and dandy but religion z has no right to impose even a label upon nor to discriminate against those who leave religion z.

They have a right to claim they are not religious Z'ers. And they have no power to discriminate in a secular society. They do have the right to not associate with ex-Z'ers if they like and stay within their community.