Do we really need to be Forgiven????

[Bird123]

I honestly feel that humans want forgiveness but they know they can't depend on others to forgive them (since they can't control others) and they find it hard to forgive themselves, so they project the need and source of the forgiver on an outside party. This party cannot defend himself outside of how humans describe him to be. Outside of our description of god, who or what is god?

If sin is needed, then why do we punish people for murder and look down on people for lying? Wouldn't these sins be put on a pedestal of honor and righteous deeds instead?

It's an oxymoron to say sin is wrong at the same time sin is needed. When you need something, it usually benefits you in one way or another. How does a sin specifically benefit you? If you murder someone or someone hits you, where is the benefit in that? Do you still want to murder or want that person to hit you so you can learn a lesson or do you have the choice to make "good" decisions as opposed to sinful ones?

We don't need forgiveness. We want forgiveness. (We-not generalizing just case in point) Why would people want to be christian if they felt they didn't need nor want (have the motivation towards) forgiveness. When you need something, you can't survive without it. You have billions of people surviving without god of abraham's forgiveness.

So it's a personal thing not a universal thing. We-as a people-don't need to be forgiven. Why forgive someone for sin if the sin is beneficial to their salvation? If anything, the emphasis should be on the unconditional love you're talking about. The thing is--every christian I know says "we have to have sin in order to have forgiveness and grace from god. If not, we'd be robots."

But really think about it. Do you really want to sin? and even more so, do you really want god to forgive you for something you didn't have to have to begin with?

Also, god didn't make a mistake he just created humans who can choose to make mistakes on their own. It's like putting a toddler in a play pin with toys and knives the expecting them by their free choice to pick the toys all the time when that could have been avoided by taking out the knives and let them choose between one toy or another. That doesn't mean they have no choice, it just means there is no sin involved.

We don't need to be forgiven if we were not given the option to sin.

You might be right that people want forgiveness. The question remains: Have they been taught to want forgiveness? Is that right to teach people to want or need forgiveness?

Society must protect themselves from crime. On the other hand, is it right to just lock a person up then throw away the key? Is it right not to attempt to Fix the Real problem? Does society even attempt to fix?

Sure, free will is necessary to learning, however God is not helpless under the realm of free will. Example; God sets the parameters of your life for the good of everyone. Do you really think God does not already know your choices? How do your choices change you and the world? Yes, to really understand all sides, one must experience all sides. No matter what happens, it does not matter for we are all Eternal.

Seems everybody thinks in terms of having it made. We have all been spoiled in God's arms in the past. Though it is our only desire, this world is not about having it made. It is about education. How can you be really educated without understanding all sides? You can't. I do not need or demand forgiveness for this. It is simple MATH.

 

[Bird123]

No, they aren't the same things. I can forgive you for looking sloppy. Its a bit much to ask me to forgive you for killing someone I love. They aren't the same either in common sense or in the Bible either.

It doesn't matter whether you are sloppy or have killed someone I loved. It isn't about me. Unconditional Love does what is best for the other. I would say that murderer needed more help from me than that sloppy person. Hmmm? What can I do to get this really fixed? Require or Demand forgiveness? Hate, Anger, or Revenge? No, I'm afraid it's going to take much more work than that.

 

[Sha'irullah]

First you must be talking about Christianity since this is not a notion in most religions, not even mine.

 

[Brickjectivity]

It doesn't matter whether you are sloppy or have killed someone I loved. It isn't about me. Unconditional Love does what is best for the other. I would say that murderer needed more help from me than that sloppy person. Hmmm? What can I do to get this really fixed? Require or Demand forgiveness? Hate, Anger, or Revenge? No, I'm afraid it's going to take much more work than that.

Its unfair to demand someone forgive a murderer. You can demand that they spare the murderer, but there's very little chance for them to forgive a murderer. It really depends upon the individual, but its a tall order.

In Christianity what you do is give justice to God. You can spare the person, but sometimes its not going to be possible to be friends with them. People have limitations.

 

[Skwim]

Is watching others struggle through adversity really amusing? It might be for someone who has had a lot of adversity, however that person would also need lessons to solve that mental problem. I can not see God with mental problems. At least I have not seen it yet.

I'm open. What do you think was his purpose in creating mankind?

And, if the struggles of others isn't amusing then why do you think he permits it? After all, being omniscient, before he even created mankind he knew we would be struggling through adversities.

.

 

[Bird123]

That depends who you are:

• "In order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned ... So that they may be urged the more to praise God ... The saints in heaven know distinctly all that happens ... to the damned" - Thomas Aquinas

• "The door of mercy will be shut and all bowels of compassion denied, by God, who will laugh at their destruction; by angels and saints, who will rejoice when they see the vengeance' by their fellow-suffer the devil and the damned rejoicing over their misery." - Bishop Newcomb

• This display of the divine character will be most entertaining to all who love God, will give them the highest and most ineffable pleasure. Should the fire of this eternal punishment cease, it would in a great measure obscure the light of heaven, and put an end to a great part of the happiness and glory of the blessed." - Samuel Hopkins

• "The view of the misery of the damned will double the ardor of the love and gratitude of the saints of heaven ... The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever ... Can the believing father in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving children in Hell ... I tell you, yea! Such will be his sense of justice that it will increase rather than diminish his bliss." - Jonathan Edwards

• "At that greatest of all spectacles, that last and eternal judgment how shall I admire, how laugh, how rejoice, how exult, when I behold so many proud monarchs groaning in the lowest abyss of darkness; so many magistrates liquefying in fiercer flames than they ever kindled against the Christians; so many sages philosophers blushing in red-hot fires with their deluded pupils; so many tragedians more tuneful in the expression of their own sufferings; so many dancers tripping more nimbly from anguish then ever before from applause." - Tertullian

You can not Understand God through the eyes of mankind. If you do, you will limit your view to who mankind is.

As I see it. God is above the petty things mankind holds so dear. You are going to have to rise above these petty things.

Just like the physics of this world add up so does everything about God. Do these stories from mankind really add up? A Being capable of creating the universe has to be very very smart. Are these actions mankind describes really Smart?

Everybody wants to rule the world. So often mankind's stories are there to move you emotionally. It has always been easier to manipulate emotions than it is reason. Ask yourself. Are they trying to manipulate your choices and actions or do you see what adds up and what actually exist? Scientists will tell you. Discovery is not Coercion.

 

[Bird123]

Maybe he didn't and we just created it for ourselves.

Can rebellion ever accomplish something good? Sometimes.

Yes. Exactly, God is recreating the world.

And he does do this, just not over many lifetimes, but one. It's a gracious thing for god to allow us to learn from our mistakes.

Forgiveness is the beginning of grace (which is love we do not deserve).

If forgiveness is not needed how do we learn to forgive?

There is so much to Learn and Experience that it could never be done in one mere lifetime.

Learning to forgive is never needed if one does not hold a grudge. On the other hand, if the other felt so bad they needed to hear you say I forgive you then your action would not be forgiveness but a act of Love.

 

[sun rise]

Yes, there is an emotional issue around forgiveness. Some require it in order to feel better. In that case the I forgive you is an act of love so they do not feel bad.

I like the old saying. Love is never having to say you are sorry.

I might tell someone I am sorry if I hurt them but forgiveness has nothing to do with that.

If others hurt me, forgiveness is never an issue. I just do my best to point them in the right direction toward their learning.

I have seen too many times in the past that people use forgiveness or the demand for forgiveness to manipulate or control the actions of others. In fact, I see religions doing just that when they insist one needs God's forgiveness. Clearly, it is not important to God.

As I see it, Unconditional Love always does what is best for the other. Is it really best to demand others to ask forgiveness at every bad choice when one could never get really good without bad choices? I don't see it.

Pure love is like the sun - it shines on one and all with no demands. It shines because it is its nature to shine.

 

[Bird123]

Its unfair to demand someone forgive a murderer. You can demand that they spare the murderer, but there's very little chance for them to forgive a murderer. It really depends upon the individual, but its a tall order.

In Christianity what you do is give justice to God. You can spare the person, but sometimes its not going to be possible to be friends with them. People have limitations.

Is there ever a good reason to Hate? If you Hate the murderer, what are you teaching those around you? Do people become Christians in order that God gets their revenge for them?

Round and round it goes. What is the Higher Level?? All that matters is Fixing the problem not frying the kid.

Hate begets Hate. What will you end up with?

As I see it. our actions and choices will return to teach us what our actions really mean regardless of our beliefs.

As I see it. It doesn't matter what anyone else does. It's what one chooses to do that counts. What will you choose?

 

[Bird123]

I'm open. What do you think was his purpose in creating mankind?

And, if the struggles of others isn't amusing then why do you think he permits it? After all, being omniscient, before he even created mankind he knew that we would be struggling through adversities.

.

As I see it. God created mankind because God knows what every parent knows. Children make life Grand!!

When things are going good, we sit back and enjoy the ride. When adversity hits, we have to Think, Study, Plan, Analyze, Experiment, Interact, learn and grow in so many ways. Adversity breeds invention. Example: what would mankind's medical knowledge be if no one ever got sick? Ever notice when one disease is cured another one pops up in it's place. Learn one lesson and the next one shows up for study.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Is there ever a good reason to Hate? If you Hate the murderer, what are you teaching those around you? Do people become Christians in order that God gets their revenge for them?

So have you ever tried forgiving someone? You act like its always possible no matter what. Maybe you turn your feelings off somehow. There are some people who can do that, but not everybody can. That's why its not fair to demand perfect forgiveness from people. They cannot always do it. You act like its a matter of reason and words. If it were then I'd agree, but its not a matter of reasoning or of words.

Round and round it goes. What is the Higher Level?? All that matters is Fixing the problem not frying the kid.

Frying what kid? I lost track here. I'm talking about something else perhaps.

As I see it. our actions and choices will return to teach us what our actions really mean regardless of our beliefs.

As I see it. It doesn't matter what anyone else does. It's what one chooses to do that counts. What will you choose?

Of course taking revenge is not good. That isn't the same as forgiving though. Forgiving is not always possible for people.

 

[Bird123]

Pure love is like the sun - it shines on one and all with no demands. It shines because it is its nature to shine.

Yes, Very Good.

This reminds me of something that I do. When it is really raining and nasty outside, I walk up around a lot of people and say: Look at the Liquid Sunshine. It seems I always get a smile from someone. Of course, then I'm always the first one who walks right in that rain.

 

[sun rise]

As I see it. God created mankind because God knows what every parent knows. Children make life Grand!!

When things are going good, we sit back and enjoy the ride. When adversity hits, we have to Think, Study, Plan, Analyze, Experiment, Interact, learn and grow in so many ways. Adversity breeds invention. Example: what would mankind's medical knowledge be if no one ever got sick? Ever notice when one disease is cured another one pops up in it's place. Learn one lesson and the next one shows up for study.

Sri Ramakrishna's view is that nothing exists but the divine. There is an illusion of separateness but the reality is One; that there is no two between God and humans. All pleasure and pain are part of the dream which disappears when we awaken.

The purpose of creation, is lila. The concept of lila escapes all the traditional difficulties in assigning purpose to the creator. Lila is a purpose-less purpose, a natural outflow, a spontaneous self-manifestation of the Divine. The concept of lila, again, emphasizes the role of delight in creation. The concept of Prakriti and Maya fail to explain the bliss aspect of Divine. If the world is manifestation of the Force of Satcitananda, the deployment of its existence and consciousness, its purpose can be nothing but delight. This is the meaning of delight. Lila, the play, the child’s joy, the poet’s joy, the actor’s joy, the mechanician’s joy of the soul of things eternally young, perpetually inexhaustible, creating and recreating Himself in Himself for the sheer bliss of that self-creation, of that self-representation, Himself the play, Himself the player, Himself the playground Sri Aurobindo's Philosophy of Social Development

 

[Bird123]

So have you ever tried forgiving someone? You act like its always possible no matter what. Maybe you turn your feelings off somehow. There are some people who can do that, but not everybody can. That's why its not fair to demand perfect forgiveness from people. They cannot always do it. You act like its a matter of reason and words. If it were then I'd agree, but its not a matter of reasoning or of words.

Frying what kid? I lost track here. I'm talking about something else perhaps.

Of course taking revenge is not good. That isn't the same as forgiving though. Forgiving is not always possible for people.

I make no Demands. Your Journey has never depended on me.

Something to consider. Those who choose hate regardless the reason or excuse do not really understand all sides of hate. I do understand choices are not always easy. On the other hand, after much learning and understanding, they will.

 

[Ponder This]

IMO, why wait around for forgiveness to come to you? If you did something wrong apologize and make amends. If you don't think you did anything wrong, then there is nothing to apologize for. I don't 'need' someone else to forgive me. It's up to him to figure out if he wants to forgive me or not. I can't make him do it and I won't force him to.

So when faced with the question of 'original sin'. It just seems obvious: say your sorry, do what you can to make amends for what is apparently your fault, and then actually move on with things that matter. I say 'things that matter' because 'original sin' is not something you can apparently do anything about. I mean you are born into it and even if you apologize and do what you can to make amends, somebody's going to come along and say you are still full of sin. If the interest is greater than what you can pay, it's a debtor's prison.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I thought my father in law had a humorous (but often practical) adage. "It's much easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission."

Emo Philips tells us that as a boy, he used to pray for a bicycle, but never got one. So, he decided to steal one instead and then pray for forgiveness. That worked better.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

You can not Understand God through the eyes of mankind.

Then why bother trying? I only have human eyes.

Everybody wants to rule the world.

I don't. I am happy as I am.

Are they trying to manipulate your choices and actions or do you see what adds up and what actually exist?

I'd say that others are trying to manipulate me, but that they are powerless to do so in any meaningful sense, such is the power of critical thought and the requirement for compelling evidence before believing (skepticism).

 

[Ingledsva]

As I understand it, the concept of original sin (which is the ultimate justification for saying we need to be forgiven) was cooked up in its modern form by Augustine.

Yep, plus I don't remember the Genesis story saying we are born sinners. I believe it says because of A & E's "sin," - we are born into a "world" of sin. In other words, choice.

*

 

[RedDragon94]

There is so much to Learn and Experience that it could never be done in one mere lifetime.

Learning to forgive is never needed if one does not hold a grudge. On the other hand, if the other felt so bad they needed to hear you say I forgive you then your action would not be forgiveness but a act of Love.

But how do we know how to forgive? That is the question.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I make no Demands. Your Journey has never depended on me.

Something to consider. Those who choose hate regardless the reason or excuse do not really understand all sides of hate. I do understand choices are not always easy. On the other hand, after much learning and understanding, they will.

I suspect you have never had to deal with bitterness before, so you don't have any practical understanding of what you are speaking about. When I was young, getting through with school and had a history of family support and high expectations of the future, I was able to ignore offenses. I was spit upon and ignored it. I could take a punch. I always chose to forgive, even the worst of enemies. It became more difficult later on, and I met the limitations of my human soul. So I understand what its like when its easy to forgive, but there comes a time when you cannot forgive.