Do we really need to be Forgiven????

[Bird123]

But how do we know how to forgive? That is the question.

All that matters is that we know how to Love Unconditionally.

 

[Bird123]

I suspect you have never had to deal with bitterness before, so you don't have any practical understanding of what you are speaking about. When I was young, getting through with school and had a history of family support and high expectations of the future, I was able to ignore offenses. I was spit upon and ignored it. I could take a punch. I always chose to forgive, even the worst of enemies. It became more difficult later on, and I met the limitations of my human soul. So I understand what its like when its easy to forgive, but there comes a time when you cannot forgive.

Why must there come a time when one must choose hate? Since these people have problems, does this mean you must choose problems for yourself? Will anger, hate or revenge fix these people? What results are you getting through your choices? More Hurt???

When you let the hurt, anger, revenge and hate go, they no longer have any power over you. They can no longer hurt you.

I have had my share of people in my past. I have learned to Think then Act rather than simply reacting to others around me. The results come out so much better.

We all have the power to Choose how we value things around us. I would not allow others to make your choices for you through their actions.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Why must there come a time when one must choose hate?

I don't know. I didn't know anybody had said that. Why would you think so?

 

[PureX]

That's not my experience, unless that all you mean by forgiveness is not exacting revenge or continuing to seethe indefinitely.

Well, I would say that's a pretty good start, alright. Because to actually achieve this state, one would have to do some significant forgiving, don't you think?

Absent a sincere apology, I have no reason to even consider forgiveness unless maintaining the relationship is important, and even then, there is not so much forgiveness as the pragmatic willingness to act as if the act in question hadn't occurred.

So you don't really forgive, unless it's in your best interest to do so (and even then your just engaging in deliberate denial, not forgiveness), and you don't retaliate, because that's not in your best interest. Which I assume means that you have to just sit in a state of condemnation, indefinitely, because you haven't let the offense go, and you couldn't do anything about it. Unless, I guess, circumstances allow that retaliation would be in your best interest. Then you would do so. Because the controlling principal here, by your own admission, seems to always be what's in your own best interest. Right?

But don't you think that's probably why the "offender" screwed you in the first place? That he/she was just doing what they thought was in their own best interest?

But that doesn't mean that I harbor hatred or plan retaliation. I just walk away and evolve into a state of disrespect and indifference.

That sounds very unhealthy for you. Like swallowing a toxin and never expelling it.

There is no "escalating cycle of vengeance" and nobody is destroyed.

Maybe you will be, in the long run.

Why would I love an enemy or offer one a second shot at me?

Well, I suppose you would if you believed in a greater guiding principal than whatever is in your own best interest.

Are you a Christian? If so, can you answer me why isn't non-retaliation and indifference without forgiveness enough?

I don't believe that either of these can be achieved without some measure of forgiveness. And because, if there is no forgiveness, in the end, we will choke on the accumulation of anger, paranoia, and resentment.

 

[DavidFirth]

A Religious friend recited what his religion was teaching him. He said Sin is bad. He said we are all Sinners. Finally, He said we all need to be forgiven by God for our Sins.



OK. Let's think about this for a while. God creates us. God is supposed to be Perfect. How could God create such a flaw in everyone that would make everyone Sinners? Further, since the flaw is God's mistake, why does one need God to forgive us?



Perhaps Religion has it all wrong. Let's assume God is smart enough not to make any mistakes. With that in mind, could Sin be a Good thing?



As I see it, God has not made a mistake. Mankind simply does not Understand what is actually going on. People assume God created us then we screwed it all up. In reality, God is not through creating each of us to our true Perfection. We are living the creation process toward perfection.



Ego gets in the way of so much learning yet Ego is an important part sentience. Since each are individuals with Ego, you can not just tell someone how they should act and expect everyone to follow. Funny how so many Religions think everyone should follow.



In order for one to make perfect choices, one must fully Understand all sides. How can one understand all sides if the choices are limited to one side? It won't happen. With the Ego involved, the choices must be Free Choices. If your choices are not free choices, won't you make the opposite choice as soon as you do get a free choice just to discover what you could not have?



This brings us to Reality as I see it on the road to our perfection. Sin is a necessity for learning. We are living in a multilevel classroom free to choose what we do not understand. In this time-based causal universe we learn through our parameters, those we interact with and the results of our choices. God simply has to return our actions and choices back to us so that we might understand what our choices really mean. In time, through many lifetimes, we Choose our way to perfection. When one truly understands all sides, Intelligence will make the best choice.



In a multilevel classroom, students are learning many different things. Often we see others learning lessons we have already learned. Does one Hate, value Blame, want to Condemn and Punish, want revenge and pay back,or value others as a lower life form when we see this? Those are hard lesson one can choose for themselves regardless of how appetizing it can be served up from those who present them as an image of goodness. As I see it, the only Real choice is to recognize we are all on the journey to perfection and what matters most is that no one misses the opportunity to Learn. Each can be a Part of the Real Solution. Point them in the right direction.



As I see it, we are all being taught to Love Unconditionally. After all, that is what everyone wants to return. Unconditional Love always does what is Best for the other. It can not be an easy thing for God either especially when what sometimes can be the best thing is a hard painful lesson. Still, won't the Results be Glorious at the end of the long road?



Forgiveness?? It has never been needed.



What do you think?

The fact that you feel compelled to ask tells me a lot.

 

[Bird123]

I don't know. I didn't know anybody had said that. Why would you think so?

Every time should be the time when hate is not a viable option.

 

[Bird123]

The fact that you feel compelled to ask tells me a lot.

Well, thank you!!!! Let's hope what you see is reality instead of what you want to see. If you see reality, perhaps you understand God's big picture after all. This world is a Masterpiece!!

 

[DavidFirth]

Well, thank you!!!! Let's hope what you see is reality instead of what you want to see. If you see reality, perhaps you understand God's big picture after all. This world is a Masterpiece!!

Yes, of course it is. The Bible is quite clear on that. So is everything God created.

 

[RedDragon94]

All that matters is that we know how to Love Unconditionally.

Well, thanks for a straight answer.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Every time should be the time when hate is not a viable option.

I never advocated hate. You are denying that hate is part of being human, which suggests you have not yet faced it.

When you let the hurt, anger, revenge and hate go, they no longer have any power over you. They can no longer hurt you.

Inexperience explains your words.

 

[Bird123]

I never advocated hate. You are denying that hate is part of being human, which suggests you have not yet faced it.
Inexperience explains your words.

I am not denying anything. Hate is a part of a person only if one allows it to be.

 

[Mister Silver]

All that matters is that we know how to Love Unconditionally.

I often times wonder if those who propose unconditional love actually know what it means.

After all, any time that someone places conditions on another, that is not unconditional. For instance, god placing conditions on his creations to be a certain way is not indicative of unconditional love.

Your thoughts?

 

[Grandliseur]

A Religious friend recited what his religion was teaching him. He said Sin is bad. He said we are all Sinners. Finally, He said we all need to be forgiven by God for our Sins.

OK. Let's think about this for a while. God creates us. God is supposed to be Perfect. How could God create such a flaw in everyone that would make everyone Sinners? Further, since the flaw is God's mistake, why does one need God to forgive us?

Perhaps Religion has it all wrong. Let's assume God is smart enough not to make any mistakes. With that in mind, could Sin be a Good thing?

As I see it, God has not made a mistake. Mankind simply does not Understand what is actually going on. People assume God created us then we screwed it all up. In reality, God is not through creating each of us to our true Perfection. We are living the creation process toward perfection.

Ego gets in the way of so much learning yet Ego is an important part sentience. Since each are individuals with Ego, you can not just tell someone how they should act and expect everyone to follow. Funny how so many Religions think everyone should follow.

In order for one to make perfect choices, one must fully Understand all sides. How can one understand all sides if the choices are limited to one side? It won't happen. With the Ego involved, the choices must be Free Choices. If your choices are not free choices, won't you make the opposite choice as soon as you do get a free choice just to discover what you could not have?

This brings us to Reality as I see it on the road to our perfection. Sin is a necessity for learning. We are living in a multilevel classroom free to choose what we do not understand. In this time-based causal universe we learn through our parameters, those we interact with and the results of our choices. God simply has to return our actions and choices back to us so that we might understand what our choices really mean. In time, through many lifetimes, we Choose our way to perfection. When one truly understands all sides, Intelligence will make the best choice.

In a multilevel classroom, students are learning many different things. Often we see others learning lessons we have already learned. Does one Hate, value Blame, want to Condemn and Punish, want revenge and pay back,or value others as a lower life form when we see this? Those are hard lesson one can choose for themselves regardless of how appetizing it can be served up from those who present them as an image of goodness. As I see it, the only Real choice is to recognize we are all on the journey to perfection and what matters most is that no one misses the opportunity to Learn. Each can be a Part of the Real Solution. Point them in the right direction.

As I see it, we are all being taught to Love Unconditionally. After all, that is what everyone wants to return. Unconditional Love always does what is Best for the other. It can not be an easy thing for God either especially when what sometimes can be the best thing is a hard painful lesson. Still, won't the Results be Glorious at the end of the long road?

Forgiveness?? It has never been needed.
What do you think?

Sin and mistakes are not the same. When the young child Jesus, 12 at the time, did something that caused his parents unnecessary anguish, he learned and never did this again. It was not a sin, perhaps not even a mistake, or a mistake perhaps - depending upon perspective of the situation.

Also, perspective is another way of seeing what it means when one says sin; how about flawed? Aren't we all flawed? I know I am. Some of my mistakes are sins, other mistakes are being stupid, but are not sins, and other mistakes again are just a question of having to learn to avoid doing something. For example, when a child, I had to learn when cutting with a knife to cut so that if it slipped, it didn't cut into my hand, but went away from my hand - thus avoiding being hurt.

 

[Bird123]

I often times wonder if those who propose unconditional love actually know what it means.

After all, any time that someone places conditions on another, that is not unconditional. For instance, god placing conditions on his creations to be a certain way is not indicative of unconditional love.

Your thoughts?

Unconditional Love will always do what is best for the other. It's not about giving someone everything they want. As For God and conditions, if you base the knowledge you have on God from holy books, you are basing your knowledge on mankind's view or ideas of God. As we well know, mankind works so very hard at controlling the picture whether it is true or not.

As I see it. one will discover God quicker if they throw away that holy book then find God for themselves.

In this time based causal universe, even God's actions can be seen. Understanding those actions brings one to really understand God. Unlike holy books, God's actions can not be altered by mankind.

Religion makes God easy. They serve it up on a plate and all one has to do is believe. True Discovery takes much work along with working that intelligence. It may not be as easy but the results are so much better.

Having trouble seeing any of God's actions? Let me give you an example: If you look at this world, knowledge must be earned. it takes a struggle to discover anything. Often it takes teamwork with long hours of study. Ask yourself. Why has God set things up this way? The next question might be. If God set things up this way why would God inspired some man to write a holy book to give all the answers? If you step back and look at the Big picture, God didn't write any books. It goes against the system in place. I think it is a good study to find out all the sides of why discovery is important.

This is just one mere action of God. God's actions are all around. As I see it, this is a lifetime study. On the other hand, the further one goes; the more the view changes. When one door is open, it often leads to more ideas and more doors to open. Of course, that is the way discovery is. As I see it, this is the only way to really understand God.

One thing to keep with you on your journey. Just like all the physics add up so will everything about God. If it doesn't add up, you wander from your path. If you travel far enough, you will see why Unconditional Love is in there. It is the only real intelligent choice.

 

[Bird123]

Sin and mistakes are not the same. When the young child Jesus, 12 at the time, did something that caused his parents unnecessary anguish, he learned and never did this again. It was not a sin, perhaps not even a mistake, or a mistake perhaps - depending upon perspective of the situation.

Also, perspective is another way of seeing what it means when one says sin; how about flawed? Aren't we all flawed? I know I am. Some of my mistakes are sins, other mistakes are being stupid, but are not sins, and other mistakes again are just a question of having to learn to avoid doing something. For example, when a child, I had to learn when cutting with a knife to cut so that if it slipped, it didn't cut into my hand, but went away from my hand - thus avoiding being hurt.

Isn't it really all the same? Aren't all these things a result of the lack of understanding? By dividing them up in the ones you like and do not like, aren't you creating an excuse to hate, condemn, judge, punish and payback? Isn't the most important thing to Fix the problem?

If you are on the road to perfection through your free choices and God's real system, how can you be flawed? You are doing as you were created to do.

Perhaps, people attempt to manipulate your actions and choices by trying to convince you something is wrong with you. I bet they are ready to supply you with the fix through them or their beliefs.

 

[PureX]

I often times wonder if those who propose unconditional love actually know what it means.

After all, any time that someone places conditions on another, that is not unconditional. For instance, god placing conditions on his creations to be a certain way is not indicative of unconditional love.

Your thoughts?

You are confusing and conflating authoritarian religious conditions with divine love. Religions don't define God. They want to. They try to. But they cannot and do not define God for us unless we are foolish enough to allow them to. So let's stick to the ideal of unconditional love and leave the authoritarian religious dogmas out of it.

Can we humans love unconditionally? Probably not. Such an unconditioned state would be an absolute, and we humans do not exist in an absolute state. We exist in a state of relativity. We exist in a conditioned state. But we can use the absolute ideal of unconditional love to help us define what love should be, and to help us to better express it in our lives. We will not achieve perfection, but that should not dissuade us from trying to move toward that ideal.

 

[MonkeyFire]

Its up to you to forgive people, it makes you happy. Reality can perfect itself and achieve perfection.

 

[Skwim]

As I see it. God created mankind because God knows what every parent knows. Children make life Grand!!

When things are going good, we sit back and enjoy the ride. When adversity hits, we have to Think, Study, Plan, Analyze, Experiment, Interact, learn and grow in so many ways. Adversity breeds invention. Example: what would mankind's medical knowledge be if no one ever got sick? Ever notice when one disease is cured another one pops up in it's place. Learn one lesson and the next one shows up for study.

So you agree, god created mankind for his own pleasure (I call it amusement) to make his life grand. All of which is pretty perverse considering all the suffering he allows to go on.

.

.

 

[Bird123]

So you agree, god created mankind for his own pleasure (I call it amusement) to make his life grand. All of which is pretty perverse considering all the suffering he allows to go on.

.

.

Do people have children for amusement? I don't see it. You do not Understand.

 

[Grandliseur]

Isn't it really all the same? Aren't all these things a result of the lack of understanding? By dividing them up in the ones you like and do not like, aren't you creating an excuse to hate, condemn, judge, punish and payback? Isn't the most important thing to Fix the problem?

If you are on the road to perfection through your free choices and God's real system, how can you be flawed? You are doing as you were created to do.

Perhaps, people attempt to manipulate your actions and choices by trying to convince you something is wrong with you. I bet they are ready to supply you with the fix through them or their beliefs.

You don't get the scriptural use of 'perfection.' When perfect, a human being never dies unless deprived of sustenance, food and water.

What then is causing our difference in view in one part is what is accepted as authority on these issues. I accept the Bible's word as my authority, you seem to accept your own thoughts and ideas. But, each to his own.