Do we still need religion?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It is a way of life, a way of learning with each other and service to each other.

Regards Tony

You didn't answer my question.

Do you consider your non-Bahai neighbours not part of your community?

 

[firedragon]

Well everyone needs a hobby as I see it.

Is that based on a study?

 

[firedragon]

"We" don't. I don't. Many here do. Also many others here do not. Do you?

I think you should read the so called "study" in the OP.

 

[QuestioningMind]

The big idea: do we still need religion?

"There are at least two reasons, however, why religions persist. One is the fact that, on average, religious people are generally happier, healthier and live longer. For better or for worse, they also have easier deaths when the time comes. The other is that religious people are more likely to feel that they belong to a community. In a survey I ran, those who reported attending religious services were depressed less frequently, felt their lives were more worthwhile, were more engaged with their local community, and felt greater trust towards others. These enormous benefits mean not only that religion has enduring appeal, but that religious practices make you “fit” in the evolutionary sense – and thus they tend to stick around."

I seriously question the validity of such studies. I have an aunt who is extremely religious. If you ask her how happy she is she'll claim to be extremely happy, all because as a religious person she assumes that she is supposed to be happier than others. But in reality she is one of the most miserable people I know. She's constantly angry about all of the unholy and demented behavior she sees all around her. She's constantly worried that certain family members aren't 'saved' or that some new idea she's never heard of is the influence of Satan. Listening to her you'd think that life was nothing but misery and heartache, but if she was ever polled about her happiness and contentment she'd claim to very happy and content, because people with Jesus in the Hearts are supposed to be happy and content. If these studies are based on self-reporting then the results are suspect.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Is that based on a study?

No. Just my personal observation.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

The big idea: do we still need religion?

"There are at least two reasons, however, why religions persist. One is the fact that, on average, religious people are generally happier, healthier and live longer. For better or for worse, they also have easier deaths when the time comes. The other is that religious people are more likely to feel that they belong to a community. In a survey I ran, those who reported attending religious services were depressed less frequently, felt their lives were more worthwhile, were more engaged with their local community, and felt greater trust towards others. These enormous benefits mean not only that religion has enduring appeal, but that religious practices make you “fit” in the evolutionary sense – and thus they tend to stick around."

I honestly feel like I must be a huge outlier with respect to the rest of humanity. I have felt "depressed" for very small periods of time, perhaps 4 or 5 times in my entire life - and those were due, specifically and explicitly, to actions and/or reactions of other people around me. At a certain point I decided it wasn't worth being depressed at all... and I have very possibly shut off the ability for "me" to respond to situations with depression. It is certainly not something I "just feel" at any given time, without rhyme or reason, and I haven't felt that way in a great many years.

I don't feel like death is going to be any big deal. I understand that I will die, and I have absolutely ZERO expectation that I will somehow "go on." That doesn't need to be a part of my psyche in order for me to "make peace" with the idea. It happens, and while the actual process might suck, the ongoing state of death (oblivion) is nothing, at all, to be frightened of. One won't even be aware that it is "happening" (mostly because it won't "be happening").

While I respect the idea of "community" and it sounds really nice, and would be great to be among like-minds and all get along, etc. - the experience with reality easily informs me that this "ideal" is almost never what ends up being the case. We people disappoint, and we get bored when things aren't our brand of excitement, and many of us have ideas considered backward by tons of others, etc. The religious-based "community" I tend to see here where I live (with Christianity being the mainstay) is mostly just a façade. The people greet one another, and pretend to "be there" for one another, but its just fake. There usually ends up being a very small group of "elites" who gather together and are invited for private get-togethers, and they exclude the majority of everyone else in the church. There isn't a big push to help out people within the walls of the church who are known to be suffering financially or otherwise, and there are plenty of people talking behind one another's back about all manner of things. If that is "community" for anyone - count me out. You can take it with you as you walk the heck away from me, hopefully quickly and without even looking back. To the point that I don't feel I need "community." It just isn't, at all, worth the trouble.

Strangely enough, even given the above, I tend to give individuals the benefit of the doubt when first meeting them. But I watch and listen-to them closely. I look for signs that their thinking is juvenile, hypocritical, or lacking in self-introspection... and most often it is entirely too prevalent. I still give people the benefit of the doubt, however, because it's honestly an enjoyable past-time to feel people out thusly, and there are the good moments when someone is surprisingly refreshing in their candor and understanding. But in the end, I feel I am simply a different breed. I truly prize the times I am on my own, doing as I please, and it usually isn't until I am with others, where there are various expectations as to what I ought be doing that I feel a sense of irritation, of longing for something else.

Oh... and I never once in my life actually believed there was a god.

 

[Brickjectivity]

The big idea: do we still need religion?

"There are at least two reasons, however, why religions persist. One is the fact that, on average, religious people are generally happier, healthier and live longer. For better or for worse, they also have easier deaths when the time comes. The other is that religious people are more likely to feel that they belong to a community. In a survey I ran, those who reported attending religious services were depressed less frequently, felt their lives were more worthwhile, were more engaged with their local community, and felt greater trust towards others. These enormous benefits mean not only that religion has enduring appeal, but that religious practices make you “fit” in the evolutionary sense – and thus they tend to stick around."

If we can improve what we have then keep religion, but if we cannot improve what we have then it is better to let religion start over again wild and natural. It will be terrible and much worse than what we have today, but at least it will have the potential to change. What is better a beautiful statue of a child or an ugly child who is alive and can become an adult? The living child is better even if not as handsome, but that statue has reached its final form and can never be more than it is.

 

[sealchan]

The big idea: do we still need religion?

"There are at least two reasons, however, why religions persist. One is the fact that, on average, religious people are generally happier, healthier and live longer. For better or for worse, they also have easier deaths when the time comes. The other is that religious people are more likely to feel that they belong to a community. In a survey I ran, those who reported attending religious services were depressed less frequently, felt their lives were more worthwhile, were more engaged with their local community, and felt greater trust towards others. These enormous benefits mean not only that religion has enduring appeal, but that religious practices make you “fit” in the evolutionary sense – and thus they tend to stick around."

So the question becomes "is religion needed to create personal, life-sustaining happiness and a sense of belonging which, likely, causes a greater sense of personal meaning through social belonging?"

 

[firedragon]

No. Just my personal observation.

Okay TH. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[firedragon]

I seriously question the validity of such studies. I have an aunt who is extremely religious. If you ask her how happy she is she'll claim to be extremely happy, all because as a religious person she assumes that she is supposed to be happier than others. But in reality she is one of the most miserable people I know. She's constantly angry about all of the unholy and demented behavior she sees all around her. She's constantly worried that certain family members aren't 'saved' or that some new idea she's never heard of is the influence of Satan. Listening to her you'd think that life was nothing but misery and heartache, but if she was ever polled about her happiness and contentment she'd claim to very happy and content, because people with Jesus in the Hearts are supposed to be happy and content. If these studies are based on self-reporting then the results are suspect.

You maybe right. But also, aren't you promoting an anecdotal fallacy?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

religious people are generally happier

Not always. I was in a religion for ten years. It was not satisfying. I left it and all religion. I liked it better outside of religion, which is why I didn't return to it.

For better or for worse, they also have easier deaths when the time comes.

I'm a former hospice medical director, and have a fair amount of end-of-life experience. The most psychologically tortured people were the religious who thought they were headed to hell, or not quite ready for heaven. The belief that suffering is purifying was the commonest reason for refusing pain medication, another being fear of getting to heaven addicted to morphine.

And God forbid you were in one of Mother Teresa's hospices:

"There is something beautiful in seeing the poor accept their lot, to suffer it like Christ's Passion. The world gains much from their suffering," said Mother Teresa. "You are suffering like Christ on the cross. So Jesus must be kissing you."

I expect to die peacefully. I have no fear of death.

None of this is to say that you're wrong. But it does illustrate that many do not need religion. I have no unmet need that religion satisfies in others. I have learned to find meaning and purpose in life without religion. I have accepted the possibility that I am loved by nobody not on the surface of earth, that death is the extinction of consciousness, and that I'll never see deceased loved ones again. I accept that I have questions that likely will never be answered, and I am fine with that. They're not nagging questions. I find community in my community, which includes an expat community. We're mostly retired Canadians and Americans living in Mexico, and before the pandemic, these are the people I eat with, went to parties with, met in the dog park with, and played cards with in a duplicate bridge club with. Not surprisingly, many of us are unbelievers, older, healthy, and happy.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You didn't answer my question.

Do you consider your non-Bahai neighbours not part of your community?

Everyone is welcome to join in community based service activity, everyone can put forward or request a service activity, if they see a requirement for, or are in need of such a service.

Regards Tony

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Everyone is welcome to join in community based service activity, everyone can put forward or request a service activity, if they see a requirement for, or are in need of such a service.

Regards Tony

If you aren't going to answer my questions, why do you bother to reply?

 

[Suave]

The big idea: do we still need religion?

"There are at least two reasons, however, why religions persist. One is the fact that, on average, religious people are generally happier, healthier and live longer. For better or for worse, they also have easier deaths when the time comes. The other is that religious people are more likely to feel that they belong to a community. In a survey I ran, those who reported attending religious services were depressed less frequently, felt their lives were more worthwhile, were more engaged with their local community, and felt greater trust towards others. These enormous benefits mean not only that religion has enduring appeal, but that religious practices make you “fit” in the evolutionary sense – and thus they tend to stick around."

If a person is religious, perhaps he or she could please keep his or her beliefs personal and private, nobody needs to share his or her religious convictions.

 

[QuestioningMind]

You maybe right. But also, aren't you promoting an anecdotal fallacy?

I'm not attempting to promote anything... I'm simply stating my opinion.

 

[firedragon]

I'm not attempting to promote anything... I'm simply stating my opinion.

Maybe I used the wrong word with you. We use it frequently but maybe you misunderstood.

See, you cannot really dismiss a research with an anecdotal experience. Thats the point. But that does not mean you could not be right. You maybe correct. People might say things that are not realities. That is why research has to be more sophisticated.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Maybe I used the wrong word with you. We use it frequently but maybe you misunderstood.

See, you cannot really dismiss a research with an anecdotal experience. Thats the point. But that does not mean you could not be right. You maybe correct. People might say things that are not realities. That is why research has to be more sophisticated.

I'm sorry if it sounded like I was trying to promote my opinion as some sort of scientifically sound basis for dismissing such research. I'm quite aware that my anecdotal experience with my aunt doesn't constitute legitimate evidence. I was simply trying to pint out how difficult if not impossible it is to quantify something as subjective as happiness. I'm not certain if it can be done. These studies almost seemed designed to promote a preconceived notion, that religion makes people happier... or the opposite, since I've read several studies that suggest nations with low religious affiliations most often rate highest on the happiness index.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If you aren't going to answer my questions, why do you bother to reply?

It is not for me to answer, as I offered we are are all inclusive, to a remark you made.

What does religion have to do with community these days?

I mean, I'm sure that plenty of my neighbours go to church, but they don't all go to the same church. I couldn't even tell you which ones they go to.

IMO, religion is irrelevant to community, except to the extent that a person can construct a "community" for themselves around any hobby.

It was you that questioned if faith has anything to do with community life, I am nust offering it does. It can be and must always ways try to be the bedrock of strong vibrant communities. This is a foundation we could choose to pursue.

RF is such a place. All are welcome and we participate as we choose.

So It would be your choice to participate with others, in many cases they are willing to include you, faith or no faith. My local church's always have community activities planned, it makes for a busy life if one attended all the functions.

As a Baha'i, we re also inclusive.

Do you have activities you wish to share, or invite others to?

Regards Tony

 

[IndigoChild5559]

What is it with people to use the word "we", imposing their view on all humans?".

There is a place for statistical information. Generalizations always have their exceptions, and bell shaped curves have their statitical deviations. Nevertheless it is worthwhile to learn how humanity ticks as a whole.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Religious people have all those benefits but they also have an, on average, 5 points lower IQ, are less educated and more criminal. If religiosity were inheritable, I'd assume that in societies which value intelligence, education and social behaviour, religion would become less prevalent.

It is a mistake to say that religious people are more criminal. The studies that I've read show that the most moral people are at the extremes of the spectrum -- the deeply devout and the atheist. It's the nominal people in the middle that are morally wishy washy.