Do you agree with what the Book of Mormon Teaches?

[-Peacemaker-]

Please remember that there are many who believe Adam and Eve never really existed, but were figuritive people.

I have posted this for people to observe, read for themselves and out of this passage find for themselves what the Book of Mormon teaches as doctrine and highlight or point out what the agree with and disagree with.

Do you understand the relationship between the credibility of the witness and decision to reject, accept, or even listen to their testimony? I'm wondering why I should even open your religious text. Is there some compelling story behind it which might peak my interest because the story that I've heard from non Mormons was less than compelling to say the the least.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Do you understand the relationship between the credibility of the witness and decision to reject, accept, or even listen to their testimony? I'm wondering why I should even open your religious text. Is there some compelling story behind it which might peak my interest because the story that I've heard from non Mormons was less than compelling to say the the least.

For now I am just putting all of that aside and just examining the doctrine contained within the Book of Mormon. The only reason why people believe the witnesses is because of the powerful teachings within the book of Mormon. The passage I opened this post with is one of those clear and powerful teachings, and I am inviting people to read over this passage, taste a little bit of what the Book of Mormon teaches and tell me what they either disagree with or agree with and why.

So do you believe that Adam and Eve existed partook of the forbidden fruit? If so then there is one thing that the Book of Mormon teaches that you agree with. Do you believe in Christ our savior and redeemer from the fall?
If so there is another thing you agree with that is taught in the Book of Mormon.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

For now I am just putting all of that aside and just examining the doctrine contained within the Book of Mormon. The only reason why people believe the witnesses is because of the powerful teachings within the book of Mormon. The passage I opened this post with is one of those clear and powerful teachings, and I am inviting people to read over this passage, taste a little bit of what the Book of Mormon teaches and tell me what they either disagree with or agree with and why.

So do you believe that Adam and Eve existed partook of the forbidden fruit? If so then there is one thing that the Book of Mormon teaches that you agree with. Do you believe in Christ our savior and redeemer from the fall?
If so there is another thing you agree with that is taught in the Book of Mormon.

I can only assume then that you feel the words are so powerful that their impact testifies to their veracity as being inspired by God. Otherwise you'd see it's impossible to have this conversation apart from examining the credibility of the witness.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

I can only assume then that you feel the words are so powerful that their impact testifies to their veracity as being inspired by God. Otherwise you'd see it's impossible to have this conversation apart from examining the credibility of the witness.

I would say if the words had no power then I don't think anyone would have believed the witnesses of the Book of Mormon. If so we would not be having this conversation today.

 

[dawny0826]

Actually, I'm not so sure we interpret it all that differently. Would you mind explaining in a little more detail what you believe verse 15 is saying?

I believe that God Himself atoned for sin as Christ.

 

[Pegg]

So you believe the point of the flaming sword was to burn the tree down?
What do you believe the point of guarding the tree was? Figuratively or litterally?

why would i believe the flaming sword was to burn the tree down??? The bible does not say that, it only says the cherubs guarded the entrance to Eden. So the flaming sword was to prevent entry to Eden....not the tree.

I dont believe the tree was a literal tree which could give life. I think it was a metaphor for being in Gods presence with his blessing....everlasting life was their potential, but they were removed from Gods presence when they sinned.

But all mankind will symbolically partake of the tree of life when they are reunited with God and he makes death cease. Then everlasting life will be the reality for all those who are rejoined to God.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

why would i believe the flaming sword was to burn the tree down??? The bible does not say that, it only says the cherubs guarded the entrance to Eden. So the flaming sword was to prevent entry to Eden....not the tree.

I dont believe the tree was a literal tree which could give life. I think it was a metaphor for being in Gods presence with his blessing....everlasting life was their potential, but they were removed from Gods presence when they sinned.

But all mankind will symbolically partake of the tree of life when they are reunited with God and he makes death cease. Then everlasting life will be the reality for all those who are rejoined to God.

Genesis 3:24
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Okay, so you believe there were literal Cherubims in Eden.
Was there a fence all the way around Eden so you could only get in through the East? Intersting... It never said the Cherubims were there to guard Eden from intruders. What do you believe it meant by "a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the tree of life?"

 

[Pegg]

Genesis 3:24
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Okay, so you believe there were literal Cherubims in Eden.
Was there a fence all the way around Eden so you could only get in through the East? Intersting... It never said the Cherubims were there to guard Eden from intruders. What do you believe it meant by "a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the tree of life?"

as i've already said, there was no literal tree of life. Being in Eden, a holy sanctuary in Gods presence, would have potentially been 'everlasting' for mankind. The 'tree of life' merely represents everlasting life offered by God to those who remain with him.

'assuming' there was a literal tree, why station the Cherubs outside Eden and not just at the tree? Why keep Adam and Eve outside of the garden and not just keep them away from the tree?

it doesnt make sense when you think of it like that. But it makes more sense when you understand that the tree represented everlasting life in Gods presence.... and when God restores all things, those symbolic 'trees' will once again be present for mankind to live forever as Revelation says.

 

[McBell]

??? did you not understand my answer? Rev 22:18 is in most all Bibles...just get a KJV.

My apologies.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

as i've already said, there was no literal tree of life. Being in Eden, a holy sanctuary in Gods presence, would have potentially been 'everlasting' for mankind. The 'tree of life' merely represents everlasting life offered by God to those who remain with him.

'assuming' there was a literal tree, why station the Cherubs outside Eden and not just at the tree? Why keep Adam and Eve outside of the garden and not just keep them away from the tree?

it doesn't make sense when you think of it like that. But it makes more sense when you understand that the tree represented everlasting life in Gods presence.... and when God restores all things, those symbolic 'trees' will once again be present for mankind to live forever as Revelation says.

Literal cherubims guarding a figurative tree, got it.

You mentioned on the other thread as well as this one concerning how Adam and Eve stood before God in a spiritual sense. How was what Adam and Eve experienced different than hat we have every day? Are we not standing before God in a spiritual sense right now?

So apparently you do believe there was a fence of some kind all the way around the garden and the only way in was through the East gate.

 

[Pegg]

Literal cherubims guarding a figurative tree, got it.

literal cherubs guarding the way back into Eden, the sanctuary of God.

You mentioned on the other thread as well as this one concerning how Adam and Eve stood before God in a spiritual sense. How was what Adam and Eve experienced different than hat we have every day? Are we not standing before God in a spiritual sense right now?

they were with God both physically and spiritually. Just as Gods presence filled the tabernacle and later the Temple, so did Gods presence fill the Garden in the 'breezy part of the day'. They didnt need a high priest or a mediator like we do.

We dont have Gods presence right now...we have the mediator Jesus Christ to intercede on our behalf...this allows us to dwell with God spiritually. We have his guidance and friendship and blessing if we are using the mediator. But we can't commune directly with God...we can only do so through, and because of, Jesus Christ.

So apparently you do believe there was a fence of some kind all the way around the garden and the only way in was through the East gate.

i dont know if there was a fence. I can't imagine there being a fence because Eden was supposed to be spread out over the entire earth. I think discussion of a fence is irrelevant to what we are discussing. If there was a fence or wasnt, what does it matter??

 

[Katzpur]

I believe that God Himself atoned for sin as Christ.

Thanks, Dawny. I know you probably won't want to get into this any deeper, and I respect that. I just wanted to let you know that there are several places in the LDS scriptures in which Christ is specifically referred to as "God." So, we too believe that God himself atoned for our sins. We just don't believe it was God "the Father" who did so. So maybe we're more on the same page than you realize.

 

[Flankerl]

So you don't believe Adam and Eve existed, partook of the forbidden fruit and fell?

I dont accept nor believe in replacement theology.


So you people copied some parts of our religion. Good for you.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

I dont accept nor believe in replacement theology.


So you people copied some parts of our religion. Good for you.

Hey, that is one piece of the Book of Mormon that you do believe in. The fact that Adam and Eve existed. I wonder what part of the passage I opened with you disagree with and why. I see you agree with 2, do you agree with 3 and 4?

"2 Now behold, my son, I will explain this thing unto thee. For behold, after the Lord God sent our first parents forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground, from whence they were taken—yea, he drew out the man, and he placed at the east end of the garden of Eden, cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the tree of life—
3 Now, we see that the man had become as God, knowing good and evil; and lest he should put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever, the Lord God placed cherubim and the flaming sword, that he should not partake of the fruit—
4 And thus we see, that there was a time granted unto man to repent, yea, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God."

 

[Flankerl]

Hey, that is one piece of the Book of Mormon that you do believe in.

No I believe in the TaNaKh. Just because you copied parts of it doesnt mean i believe in parts of the book of mormon.

It means that you believe in parts of our book.


Big difference.

 

[Katzpur]

Just because you copied parts of it doesnt mean i believe in parts of the book of mormon.

So if two people share a belief, one of them had to have copied the other? Interesting.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

No I believe in the TaNaKh. Just because you copied parts of it doesnt mean i believe in parts of the book of mormon.

It means that you believe in parts of our book.


Big difference.

Okay, do you believe God placed Cheribum and a flaming sword in the garden?
was it to protect the tree of life and keep Adam and Eve from escaping punishment and living from living forever as this states?

'3 Now, we see that the man had become as God, knowing good and evil; and lest he should put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever, the Lord God placed cherubim and the flaming sword, that he should not partake of the fruit—
4 And thus we see, that there was a time granted unto man to repent, yea, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God.
5 For behold, if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and partaken of the tree of life, he would have lived forever, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance; yea, and also the word of God would have been void, and the great plan of salvation would have been frustrated."

Or do you agree with Pegg who believes that the tree of life was figurative and the cherubims were there to keep Adam and Eve out of God's presence?

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

literal cherubs guarding the way back into Eden, the sanctuary of God.




they were with God both physically and spiritually. Just as Gods presence filled the tabernacle and later the Temple, so did Gods presence fill the Garden in the 'breezy part of the day'. They didnt need a high priest or a mediator like we do.

We dont have Gods presence right now...we have the mediator Jesus Christ to intercede on our behalf...this allows us to dwell with God spiritually. We have his guidance and friendship and blessing if we are using the mediator. But we can't commune directly with God...we can only do so through, and because of, Jesus Christ.



i dont know if there was a fence. I can't imagine there being a fence because Eden was supposed to be spread out over the entire earth. I think discussion of a fence is irrelevant to what we are discussing. If there was a fence or wasnt, what does it matter??

The only reason why the fence is important is because we are discussing are the cherubims guarding the whole garden or just a part of the garden. If the whole garden as you claim, why not place Cheribums all the way around the garden instead of in just one spot?

 

[-Peacemaker-]

The few Mormons I've talked with in my travels have gone out of their way to highlight what they believed was the common ground between their religion and orthodox Christianity. It's understandable considering they were evangelists, as I'm sure the OP is, and were certainly trying to build a bridge to communicate the more controversial doctrines once trust was established. The conversations never got that far however and so I'm left to learning about Mormonism from my evangelical Christian mentors and orthodox Christian websites as I haven't found a reason compelling enough to undertake reading the whole book of Mormon. I'm still trying to work through the Koran and after that I'd probably read about Hinduism, Shintoism, Buddism, or Confucianism before even considering opening up the book in question. As I find it insulting to the intelligence to listen to people's challenges about the Bible when it's plainly obvious their only knowledge of it comes from apologetic websites I won't insult our Mormon members by pretending to know more than I do about their book and their so-called prophet than I really do. I will simply say that I find some of the quotes I've read troubling. If any Mormon wants to clarify their beliefs, especially the more "controversial" ones I'd love to listen. I realize the OP had chosen some specific passages but he did title this thread as asking if people believe in the book of Mormon. That being the case, I think discussing some of the quotes of Mormonism's biggest leaders is relevant to the OP. And if the OP is truly interested in getting people to be open to reading his book of choice he might as well deal with some of the biggest objections orthodox Christians have which prevent them from even being open to the teachings of a group that they've been taught are heretics and cultists.




[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]THE GOD OF MORMONISM[/FONT]

• [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]"In spite of the opposition of the sects, in the face of direct charges of blasphemy, the Church proclaims the eternal truth: 'AS MAN IS, GOD ONCE WAS: AS GOD IS, MAN MAY BE." (Apostle James Talmage, The Articles of Faith, p. 430)[/FONT]
  
  [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man,.,. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345)[/FONT]
  
  [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]"God himself, the Father of us all, is a glorified, exalted, immortal, resurrected Man! (Apostle Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1979 edition, p. 643)[/FONT]
  [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]"... you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you,..." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 346[/FONT]
  
  
  [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]"If we should take a million of worlds like this and number their particles, we should find that there are more Gods than there are particles of matter in those worlds." (Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, p. 345)
  [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular][/FONT]
  [/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Witnessing to Mormons[/FONT]
  [/FONT]

In addition to addressing these quotes I wouldn't mind hearing Mormons address the allegations that their book has plagarized the King James Bible in some 25,000 different places

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

The few Mormons I've talked with in my travels have gone out of their way to highlight what they believed was the common ground between their religion and orthodox Christianity. It's understandable considering they were evangelists, as I'm sure the OP is, and were certainly trying to build a bridge to communicate the more controversial doctrines once trust was established. The conversations never got that far however and so I'm left to learning about Mormonism from my evangelical Christian mentors and orthodox Christian websites as I haven't found a reason compelling enough to undertake reading the whole book of Mormon. I'm still trying to work through the Koran and after that I'd probably read about Hinduism, Shintoism, Buddism, or Confucianism before even considering opening up the book in question. As I find it insulting to the intelligence to listen to people's challenges about the Bible when it's plainly obvious their only knowledge of it comes from apologetic websites I won't insult our Mormon members by pretending to know more than I do about their book and their so-called prophet than I really do. I will simply say that I find some of the quotes I've read troubling. If any Mormon wants to clarify their beliefs, especially the more "controversial" ones I'd love to listen. I realize the OP had chosen some specific passages but he did title this thread as asking if people believe in the book of Mormon. That being the case, I think discussing some of the quotes of Mormonism's biggest leaders is relevant to the OP. And if the OP is truly interested in getting people to be open to reading his book of choice he might as well deal with some of the biggest objections orthodox Christians have which prevent them from even being open to the teachings of a group that they've been taught are heretics and cultists.




[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]THE GOD OF MORMONISM[/FONT]

• [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]"In spite of the opposition of the sects, in the face of direct charges of blasphemy, the Church proclaims the eternal truth: 'AS MAN IS, GOD ONCE WAS: AS GOD IS, MAN MAY BE." (Apostle James Talmage, The Articles of Faith, p. 430)[/FONT]
  
  [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man,.,. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345)[/FONT]
  
  [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]"God himself, the Father of us all, is a glorified, exalted, immortal, resurrected Man! (Apostle Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1979 edition, p. 643)[/FONT]
  [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]"... you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you,..." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 346[/FONT]
  
  
  [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]"If we should take a million of worlds like this and number their particles, we should find that there are more Gods than there are particles of matter in those worlds." (Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, p. 345)
  [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular][/FONT]
  [/FONT]
• [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Witnessing to Mormons[/FONT]
  [/FONT]

In addition to addressing these quotes I wouldn't mind hearing Mormons address the allegations that their book has plagarized the King James Bible in some 25,000 different places

The topics you have mentioned are great topics to talk about and I love talking about them, however because of the vastness of Mormon doctrine I would really like to keep this thread within the bounds of just the passage I quoted from the Book of Mormon in this thread. Please read over them and tell me what you agree with and disagree with.

If you would like to talk to me concerning God and our potential to be like him, please come and join our coversation here. http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-religious-debates/121925-gods-children.html,
or here http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-religious-debates/118653-god-exhaulted-man.html

,but please don't leave me hanging on this thread, I am really curious as to your opinions on the statements made in this passage concerning the fall of Adam and Eve.