Do you agree with what the Book of Mormon Teaches?

[Pegg]

This is referring to the spiritual death. And with that I am pretty sure you agree with that.

Now I'm pretty sure you agree with all this am I right?

explain in a nutshell what the writer is saying... i'm not very good with old english.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

sure, justice would not have been paid if a life had not been given, so yes, the demands of justice would have remained unpaid and death would have continued to reign as king over mankind.

Gods plan was always to redeem Adams children from the condition of sin and death... he would not allow Satan to get the upperhand over anyone. As soon as the sin occured in Eden, God pronounced judgement on the Devil when he said "there will be emnity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed, you will bruise him in the heel (Jesus was temporarily wounded) and he will bruise you in the head" Gen 3:16 Jesus will eventually deliver a head wound to satan... unlike a heel wound, a head wound is more serious and one he wont recover from.

Okay, when God gave Adam and Eve the commandment not to partake of the fruit he told them if you do so you will die. This was God's law to Adam and Eve.
Now When Adam and Eve partook of the fruit they broke the law.
God then had 2 options he could take in order to redeem them from their predicament.
1) Send a savior to pay the price for them so they could overcome death.
or
2) Say oh never mind, I am not going to kill you. This would make God a liar, for he said if you partake of the fruit you will die. If God were to lie that would upset the demands of justice. And if God were to lie he would no longer be perfect, and the consequence of sin is death, so if God was mortal he would no longer be God now would he? Do you agree?

That is what all of this was saying

"12 And now, there was no means to reclaim men from this fallen state, which man had brought upon himself because of his own disobedience;
13 Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.
14 And thus we see that all mankind were fallen, and they were in the grasp of justice; yea, the justice of God, which consigned them forever to be cut off from his presence.
15 And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also."

 

[Pegg]

Okay, when God gave Adam and Eve the commandment not to partake of the fruit he told them if you do so you will die. This was God's law to Adam and Eve.
Now When Adam and Eve partook of the fruit they broke the law.
God then had 2 options he could take in order to redeem them from their predicament.
1) Send a savior to pay the price for them so they could overcome death.
or
2) Say oh never mind, I am not going to kill you. This would make God a liar, for he said if you partake of the fruit you will die. If God were to lie that would upset the demands of justice. And if God were to lie he would no longer be perfect, and the consequence of sin is death, so if God was mortal he would no longer be God now would he? Do you agree?

That is what all of this was saying

Adam and Eve are not forgiven and cannot be redeemed... only their children can.

God wasnt sending a savior them them, only for their children. I dont really understand your 2nd point...dont mormons believe that God was once a man?

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

explain in a nutshell what the writer is saying... i'm not very good with old english.

"11 And now remember, my son, if it were not for the plan of redemption, (laying it aside) as soon as they were dead their souls were miserable, being cut off from the presence of the Lord."

In a nutshell "Remember, Adam and Eve were miserable when they were physically separated from the presence of the Lord. And were it not for the atonement of Christ how much greater of a reason would they have to mourn having no other way of being redeemed."

 

[Pegg]

"11 And now remember, my son, if it were not for the plan of redemption, (laying it aside) as soon as they were dead their souls were miserable, being cut off from the presence of the Lord."

In a nutshell "Remember, Adam and Eve were miserable when they were physically separated from the presence of the Lord. And were it not for the atonement of Christ how much greater of a reason would they have to mourn having no other way of being redeemed."

does Jesus sacrifice atone for Satans sin too?

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Adam and Eve are not forgiven and cannot be redeemed... only their children can.

God wasnt sending a savior them them, only for their children. I dont really understand your 2nd point...dont mormons believe that God was once a man?

Who said Adam and Eve couldn't be redeemed and where?

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

does Jesus sacrifice atone for Satans sin too?

1) Will Satan ever repent?
2) I believe in blaspheme against the Holy Spirit of which there is no forgiveness. I believe Satan has done this.

Now if Adam and Eve had a perfect knowledge as you claim they did, then I would agree with you; however I do not believe their conscience was activated yet. Do you have any references stating specifically that they blasphemed against the Holy Spirit? What more evidence do you have than I?

 

[Pegg]

1) Will Satan ever repent?
2) I believe in blaspheme against the Holy Spirit of which there is no forgiveness. I believe Satan has done this.

Now if Adam and Eve had a perfect knowledge as you claim they did, then I would agree with you; however I do not believe their conscience was activated yet. Do you have any references stating specifically that they blasphemed against the Holy Spirit? What more evidence do you have than I?

The prophecy of Isaiah 9:6 is applied to the role of Jesus as the Messiah:
7 “There has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.”

If Adam was still suitable for the role as the father of mankind, then why has God provided mankind with a new 'eternal father'? If Adam could be forgiven, we wouldnt need a new father, but Adam is the cause of sin and death....ie

1Cor 15: 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.

If we were to choose to keep Adam as our physical father, then we will remain in sin and death because he remains in sin and death. That wont make sense to you because you believe Adam is somehow with God in the spirit realm.... but the fact is that Adam is dead in the ground and there he will remain. Thats why Jesus has become our new 'father' and that is why everlasting life becomes possible.

 

[Katzpur]

... but the fact is that Adam is dead in the ground and there he will remain.

I'm always so amused to hear people speak of their religious beliefs as "facts."

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

The prophecy of Isaiah 9:6 is applied to the role of Jesus as the Messiah:
7 “There has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.”

If Adam was still suitable for the role as the father of mankind, then why has God provided mankind with a new 'eternal father'? If Adam could be forgiven, we wouldnt need a new father, but Adam is the cause of sin and death....ie

1Cor 15: 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.

If we were to choose to keep Adam as our physical father, then we will remain in sin and death because he remains in sin and death. That wont make sense to you because you believe Adam is somehow with God in the spirit realm.... but the fact is that Adam is dead in the ground and there he will remain. Thats why Jesus has become our new 'father' and that is why everlasting life becomes possible.

Pegg, it was you who believed Christ being quickened by the spirit meant he was spiritually resurrected am I correct?

What do you think of this scripture?

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

This is 1 Corinthians 15:44-45

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Pegg what do you think of 1 Corinthians 15: 53-54

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

How can we cease to exist if we are immortal?

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Pegg What does this mean to you?
1 Corinthians 15:51

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

 

[Pegg]

Pegg, it was you who believed Christ being quickened by the spirit meant he was spiritually resurrected am I correct?

What do you think of this scripture?


This is 1 Corinthians 15:44-45

im glad you brought this scripture up...let me ask,

Jesus lived in the first century....adam died about 4,000 years earlier. So if the spirit separates from the body at death, then Adams spirit must have done that...his 'soul' must have risen to immortal life 4,000 years ago. Would this be correct?

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

im glad you brought this scripture up...let me ask,

Jesus lived in the first century....adam died about 4,000 years earlier. So if the spirit separates from the body at death, then Adams spirit must have done that...his 'soul' must have risen to immortal life 4,000 years ago. Would this be correct?

I believe Christ quickened in the spirit when he died, but was not resurrected until 3 days after he died. I believe we already have immortal spirits that can never cease to exist, it is immortal bodies that we do not yet have. Christ had the first mortal physical body that was raised to an immortal physical body.

 

[Pegg]

I believe Christ quickened in the spirit when he died, but was not resurrected until 3 days after he died. I believe we already have immortal spirits that can never cease to exist, it is immortal bodies that we do not yet have. Christ had the first mortal physical body that was raised to an immortal physical body.

i dont know what 'quickened in the spirit' means???

But bascially it sounds like you are saying that Christ had the first mortal physical body raised to an immortal physical body??

he died in the flesh and was raised in the flesh...is that what you are saying?

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

i dont know what 'quickened in the spirit' means???

That is okay, it takes a strong person to admit it when they do not know something and I respect you for that.

But bascially it sounds like you are saying that Christ had the first mortal physical body raised to an immortal physical body??

he died in the flesh and was raised in the flesh...is that what you are saying?

Yes Christ died in the flesh and was raised in the flesh, but not the same way Lazarus was, for he was mortal and died and I believe he was raised again to mortal mortal life. Christ however was mortal died, but then broke the bonds of death and was the first to be raised again to an immortal physical body that would never die again.

 

[Pegg]

That is okay, it takes a strong person to admit it when they do not know something and I respect you for that.


Yes Christ died in the flesh and was raised in the flesh, but not the same way Lazarus was, for he was mortal and died and I believe he was raised again to mortal mortal life. Christ however was mortal died, but then broke the bonds of death and was the first to be raised again to an immortal physical body that would never die again.

Was Adam raised again to 'mortal mortal' life?

I think there is a question that is yet unanswered, and that is what happened to Adam after he died...where did he go? Where is he now?

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Was Adam raised again to 'mortal mortal' life?

I think there is a question that is yet unanswered, and that is what happened to Adam after he died...where did he go? Where is he now?

When Adam died I believe he went to the spirit world just as Christ did when he was quickened in the spirit. As to if he as been resurrected yet or not I do not know.

 

[Pegg]

When Adam died I believe he went to the spirit world just as Christ did when he was quickened in the spirit. As to if he as been resurrected yet or not I do not know.

Ok, So Adam is still alive in the spirit world, he became a spirit upon his death.
Jesus didnt become a spirit on his death though, God raised him 3 days later. But did God raise Adam and every other person who has died?

not according to Jesus who said:“Moreover, no man [or woman or child] has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man [Jesus].” (John 3:13)

And nor has anyone of the holy people or prophets of old times ascended to heaven: (Hebrews 9:8) "Thus the holy spirit makes it plain that the way into the holy place had not yet been made manifest while the first tent was standing" The first 'tent' was the tabernacle or temple which stood in Jerusalem until 70CE. So not even up till that time had anyone made their way into the holy place of heaven.


I know your teachings come from other books, but im going to have to disagree with you on this point and stick to the bibles clear direction on this one.

 

[Pegg]

Pegg what do you think of 1 Corinthians 15: 53-54


How can we cease to exist if we are immortal?

some will be raised to immortal heavenly life... but will it be everyone?

Not according to the bible. Im sure if you look at Revelation 7:4 you're KJ bible will show how many will receive immortal heavenly life.