Do you agree with what the Book of Mormon Teaches?

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Ok, So Adam is still alive in the spirit world, he became a spirit upon his death.
Jesus didnt become a spirit on his death though, God raised him 3 days later. But did God raise Adam and every other person who has died?

not according to Jesus who said:“Moreover, no man [or woman or child] has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man [Jesus].” (John 3:13)

And nor has anyone of the holy people or prophets of old times ascended to heaven: (Hebrews 9:8) "Thus the holy spirit makes it plain that the way into the holy place had not yet been made manifest while the first tent was standing" The first 'tent' was the tabernacle or temple which stood in Jerusalem until 70CE. So not even up till that time had anyone made their way into the holy place of heaven.


I know your teachings come from other books, but im going to have to disagree with you on this point and stick to the bibles clear direction on this one.

I never said Adam ascended into heaven before Christ, only that Adam "Changed" to a spiritual being when he died.

1 Corinthians 15:51 " 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"

I have also previously stated that when Christ died his spirit quickened and went and taught the spirits in the spirit world during the three days before he was resurrected.

Also note 1 Corinthians 15:35-36 35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Now lets look at 45 in the same Chapter,

"45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."

So after Adam died he was made a quickening spirit.

Now compare that with this

"1 Peter 3:18 and 19
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit, 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;"

This is all right out of the New Testament.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

some will be raised to immortal heavenly life... but will it be everyone?

Not according to the bible. Im sure if you look at Revelation 7:4 you're KJ bible will show how many will receive immortal heavenly life.

1) Revelation 7:4 does not say what the servents of God were sealed up to, the words heavenly life do not appear anywhere at all in that entire chapter.

2) You seem to be under the assumption that being a spirit being is heavenly life. The abyss or lake of fire and brimstone does not sound like any part of heaven to me.

3) I do not believe everyone will be raised up to the same glory.
1 Corinthians 15:40-42
"40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:"

 

[Pegg]

1) Revelation 7:4 does not say what the servents of God were sealed up to, the words heavenly life do not appear anywhere at all in that entire chapter.

When Jesus was resurrected, where did he go? According to the bible, he went to heaven to sit at the right hand of God
Acts 2:32 This Jesus God resurrected, of which fact we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out this which YOU see and hear. 34 Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand, 35 until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”
Jesus himself said that he would be with God in heaven
Mark 14:61'... the high priest began to question him and said to him: “Are you the Christ the Son of the Blessed One?” 62 Then Jesus said: “I am; and YOU persons will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming with the clouds of heaven.”

And when he offered his apostles a 'seat in his kingdom'... what 'kingdom' was he refering to? It could only have been refering to the heavenly kingdom. Hence his teaching was that some would inherit the heavenly kingdom, while others would inherit the earth
Matthew 5:3 “Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need, since the kingdom of the heavens belongs to them....5 “Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.

Some will inherit the heavens, but some will inherit the earth.

2) You seem to be under the assumption that being a spirit being is heavenly life. The abyss or lake of fire and brimstone does not sound like any part of heaven to me.

the lake of fire is not a literal place...it does not exist. It merely symbolizes a place of destruction. It is where 'death' and 'hades' are put...death and the grave cannot be burned.

3) I do not believe everyone will be raised up to the same glory.
1 Corinthians 15:40-42
"40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:"

celestial is 'spirit'
terrestrial is 'physical'

the verse is speaking about the difference between a person raised up as a spirit and a person raised in the flesh. There are two resurrections...one to spiritual life as Jesus was raised, the other to physical life and those who receive a physical resurrection will remain in the physical world.

Some will inherit the heavens, some will inherit the earth as Jesus said in his sermon on the mount at Matthew 5.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

When Jesus was resurrected, where did he go? According to the bible, he went to heaven to sit at the right hand of God
Acts 2:32 This Jesus God resurrected, of which fact we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out this which YOU see and hear. 34 Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand, 35 until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”
Jesus himself said that he would be with God in heaven
Mark 14:61'... the high priest began to question him and said to him: “Are you the Christ the Son of the Blessed One?” 62 Then Jesus said: “I am; and YOU persons will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming with the clouds of heaven.”

And when he offered his apostles a 'seat in his kingdom'... what 'kingdom' was he refering to? It could only have been refering to the heavenly kingdom. Hence his teaching was that some would inherit the heavenly kingdom, while others would inherit the earth
Matthew 5:3 “Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need, since the kingdom of the heavens belongs to them....5 “Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.

Some will inherit the heavens, but some will inherit the earth.


the lake of fire is not a literal place...it does not exist. It merely symbolizes a place of destruction. It is where 'death' and 'hades' are put...death and the grave cannot be burned.



celestial is 'spirit'
terrestrial is 'physical'

the verse is speaking about the difference between a person raised up as a spirit and a person raised in the flesh. There are two resurrections...one to spiritual life as Jesus was raised, the other to physical life and those who receive a physical resurrection will remain in the physical world.

Some will inherit the heavens, some will inherit the earth as Jesus said in his sermon on the mount at Matthew 5.

Beware of your own assumptions.
Lets look at all of the definitons of the word sealed.

Dictionary.com
seal1 [seel] Show IPA
noun
1.
an embossed emblem, figure, symbol, word, letter, etc., used as attestation or evidence of authenticity.
2.
a stamp, medallion, ring, etc., engraved with such a device, for impressing paper, wax, lead, or the like: The king took the seal from his finger and applied it to the document.
3.
the impression so obtained: It was unmistakably the royal seal on the document.
4.
a mark or symbol attached to a legal document and imparting a formal character to it, originally wax with an impression.
5.
a piece of wax or similar adhesive substance so attached to an envelope, folded document, etc., that it must be broken when the object is opened, insuring that the contents have not been tampered with or altered.
6.
anything that tightly or completely closes or secures a thing, as closures or fastenings for doors and railroad cars, adhesive stamps and tapes used to secure the flap of an envelope, etc.
7.
something that keeps a thing secret: Her vow was the seal that kept her silent.
8.
a decorative stamp, especially as given to contributors to a charitable fund: a Christmas seal.
9.
a mark, sign, symbol, or the like, serving as visible evidence of something.
10.
anything that serves as assurance, confirmation, or bond: She gave the plan her seal of approval.
11.
Plumbing.
a.
a small amount of water held by a trap to exclude foul gases from a sewer or the like.
b.
the depth of the part of the water that actually excludes the gases.
12.
the seals, British . the tokens or signs of public office.
to affix a seal to in authorization, testimony, etc.
14.
to assure, confirm, or bind with or as if with a seal: They sealed the bargain with a handshake.
15.
to impress a seal upon as evidence of legal or standard exactness, measure, quality, etc.
16.
to close by any form of fastening that must be broken before access can be gained.
17.
to fasten or close tightly by or as if by a seal: She was sealing envelopes. My lips are sealed.
to fasten or close tightly by or as if by a seal: She was sealing envelopes. My lips are sealed.
18.
to decide irrevocably: to seal someone's fate.
19.
to grant under one's seal or authority, as a pardon.
20.
Mormon Church . to make (a marriage or adoption) forever binding; solemnize.
21.
Electricity . to bring (a plug and jack or socket) into locked or fully aligned position.
22.seal off,
a.
to close hermetically: to seal off a jar.
b.
to block (an entrance, area, etc.) completely so as to prevent escape or entrance: The police sealed off the area after the bomb threat was received.

The word sealed could mean any of a number of these and this is on the Second tier of definitions, the first tier is the original Greek definitions which can be different than the English definitions.
Which definition are you going by?

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

celestial is 'spirit'
terrestrial is 'physical'

the verse is speaking about the difference between a person raised up as a spirit and a person raised in the flesh. There are two resurrections...one to spiritual life as Jesus was raised, the other to physical life and those who receive a physical resurrection will remain in the physical world.

Some will inherit the heavens, some will inherit the earth as Jesus said in his sermon on the mount at Matthew 5.

Again beware of your assumptions, Christ existed as a spirit before he was born, why would he not exist as a spirit the moment he died, it says nowhere that Christ ever ceased to exist when he was dead for three days. He was then physically resurrected 3 days after he died and went out of his way to prove it to his apostles.

 

[Pegg]

Beware of your own assumptions.
Lets look at all of the definitons of the word sealed.

The word sealed could mean any of a number of these and this is on the Second tier of definitions, the first tier is the original Greek definitions which can be different than the English definitions.
Which definition are you going by?

Christians are spoken of as being “sealed” by means of holy spirit, which is an advance token of their heavenly inheritance. Eph 1:13 But YOU also hoped in him after YOU heard the word of truth, the good news about YOUR salvation. By means of him also, after YOU believed, YOU were sealed with the promised holy spirit, 14 which is a token in advance of our inheritance...'
The seal signifies their being God’s possession 2Co 1:21 But he who guarantees that YOU and we belong to Christ and he who has anointed us is God. 22 He has also put his seal upon us and has given us the token of what is to come, that is, the spirit, in our hearts.
The holy spirit is the seal...its the proof that one has the heavenly inheritance.

The fact that one needs this seal (which only God can give) is evidence that not everyone will be going to heaven.
Revelation 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrising, having a seal of [the] living God... saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.”
4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed..."

There is a set finite number of people who will be sealed according to Revelation.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Ephisains 1:13-14
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Again you are making a lot of assumptions on the word sealed. As I said before it could mean any of a number of things.

Second lets look at the word earnest

ear·nest1 [ur-nist] Show IPA
adjective
1.
serious in intention, purpose, or effort; sincerely zealous: an earnest worker.
2.
showing depth and sincerity of feeling: earnest words; an earnest entreaty.
3.
seriously important; demanding or receiving serious attention.

Our Bibles disagree on the wording in 14. Which manuscript was that verse translated from in your Bible? Perhaps it is from a different manuscript than the one mine was translated from.

Do we not become a part of God's fold at baptism? Does this not show that God owns us, with us being his children.

What scripture states that only 144,000 will go to heaven? None of your references have said that at all.

Lets take a closer look at Revelation 7

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Have the 12 tribes of Israel ceased to exist? No, their decedents are alive today. What does this scripture tell me? Israel is still God's covenant people. Has God called forth another 12 tribes with the exact same names? No. So it will be among their decedents who will be the ones being sealed.
Second, does it say that only 144,000 will ever be sealed? No it does not.
This could mean that among all of the twelves decendents that have ever been born 144,000 will be sealed, or it could also mean that among their decendents who are living in that day 144,000 will be sealed, while in days previous others were sealed up also.

" 1 Yea, for thus saith the Lord: Have I put thee away, or have I cast thee off forever? For thus saith the Lord: Where is the bill of your mother’s divorcement? To whom have I put thee away, or to which of my creditors have I sold you? Yea, to whom have I sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.
2 Wherefore, when I came, there was no man; when I called, yea, there was none to answer. O house of Israel, is my hand shortened at all that it cannot redeem, or have I no power to deliver? Behold, at my rebuke I dry up the sea, I make their rivers a wilderness and their fish to stink because the waters are dried up, and they die because of thirst."

 

[Pegg]

Again you are making a lot of assumptions on the word sealed. As I said before it could mean any of a number of things.

Second lets look at the word earnest

Our Bibles disagree on the wording in 14. Which manuscript was that verse translated from in your Bible? Perhaps it is frderent manuscript than the one mine was translated from.

im not making any assumptions on the word seal. The bible is clear in its use of the word at those scriptures. The seal is an identification mark.... just as seals in ancient times were used for identification purposes, so too the seal of those who will inherit the heavens.
And revelation even shows that the seal is an identification mark which protects the bearer from harm...
Revelation 9:4 And they were told to harm no vegetation of the earth nor any green thing nor any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads
Any who do not have the seal, are in some kind of trouble. So can it be said that everyone is sealed? It doesnt appear that way, no.

Do we not become a part of God's fold at baptism? Does this not show that God owns us, with us being his children.

Not necesarily, no.
Jesus made that point plain when he said “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.”—Mt 7:21.

It seems clear that Jesus didnt believe that every christian would be entering the heavenly kingdom, so why should we believe everyone is going there?

What scripture states that only 144,000 will go to heaven? None of your references have said that at all.

I have a king james bible and it does say it.
Revelation 14:1 And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads

Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:

5 Out of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand sealed;
out of the tribe of Reu′ben twelve thousand;
out of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand;
6 out of the tribe of Ash′er twelve thousand;
out of the tribe of Naph′ta·li twelve thousand;
out of the tribe of Ma·nas′seh twelve thousand;
7 out of the tribe of Sim′e·on twelve thousand;
out of the tribe of Le′vi twelve thousand;
out of the tribe of Is′sa·char twelve thousand;
8 out of the tribe of Zeb′u·lun twelve thousand;
out of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand;
out of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand sealed

12 thousand are sealed from every tribe....that is 12x12,000 = ?

Have the 12 tribes of Israel ceased to exist? No, their decedents are alive today. What does this scripture tell me? Israel is still God's covenant people. Has God called forth another 12 tribes with the exact same names? No. So it will be among their decedents who will be the ones being sealed.

Christianity has addressed this issue. It is not fleshly israel are considered Abrahams children.
Matthew 3:9 and do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘As a father we have Abraham.’ For I say to YOU that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 10 Already the ax is lying at the root of the trees; every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down

Abrahams children are those who prove to have the faith of Abraham:
Galatians 3:7)Surely YOU know that those who adhere to faith are the ones who are sons of Abraham.
Galatians 3:29 Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

im not making any assumptions on the word seal. The bible is clear in its use of the word at those scriptures. The seal is an identification mark.... just as seals in ancient times were used for identification purposes, so too the seal of those who will inherit the heavens.
And revelation even shows that the seal is an identification mark which protects the bearer from harm...
Revelation 9:4 And they were told to harm no vegetation of the earth nor any green thing nor any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads
Any who do not have the seal, are in some kind of trouble. So can it be said that everyone is sealed? It doesnt appear that way, no.



Not necesarily, no.
Jesus made that point plain when he said “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.”—Mt 7:21.

It seems clear that Jesus didnt believe that every christian would be entering the heavenly kingdom, so why should we believe everyone is going there?



I have a king james bible and it does say it.
Revelation 14:1 And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads

Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:

5 Out of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand sealed;
out of the tribe of Reu′ben twelve thousand;
out of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand;
6 out of the tribe of Ash′er twelve thousand;
out of the tribe of Naph′ta·li twelve thousand;
out of the tribe of Ma·nas′seh twelve thousand;
7 out of the tribe of Sim′e·on twelve thousand;
out of the tribe of Le′vi twelve thousand;
out of the tribe of Is′sa·char twelve thousand;
8 out of the tribe of Zeb′u·lun twelve thousand;
out of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand;
out of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand sealed

12 thousand are sealed from every tribe....that is 12x12,000 = ?






Christianity has addressed this issue. It is not fleshly israel are considered Abrahams children.
Matthew 3:9 and do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘As a father we have Abraham.’ For I say to YOU that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 10 Already the ax is lying at the root of the trees; every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down

Abrahams children are those who prove to have the faith of Abraham:
Galatians 3:7)Surely YOU know that those who adhere to faith are the ones who are sons of Abraham.
Galatians 3:29 Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise

Did I ever claim that everyone would be sealed?

Did I ever claim that Jesus was claiming that every Christian was going to go to heaven?

None of those references said that only 144,000 would be sealed.
And none of those references answered my question concerning the 144,000 that were sealed. Was that a collection of people from the time of Jacob/Israel all the way to that future day, or was it a collection of 144,000 people currently living on the earth that day? In Spanish it is a Ser and Estar kind of a question. Are there only 144,000 individuals living in heaven? Or are there more? What scriptures specifically answer any of these questions?

If things are how you say they are and God has divorced Israel the bloodline of Israel, how do you know what tribe you are in? Apparently that is important.

 

[Pegg]

i find it strange that you dont see that.... can you post what your bible states in Revelation 14:1 and Rev 7:4?

 

[Pegg]

Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
14 And I looked, and, hinei, the SEH (Lamb, SHEMOT 12:3; YESHAYAH 53:7 Moshiach) having taken his stand on Mount Tziyon and with him the 144,000 having ha-Shem of him and ha-Shem of HaAv of him which had been written on their metsakhim (foreheads). [YECHEZKEL 9:4]




King James Version (KJV)
Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.




Darby Translation (DARBY)
14 And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing upon mount Zion, and with him a hundred [and] forty-four thousand, having his name and the name of his Father written upon their foreheads.


RSV
14 Then I looked, and lo, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.





Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
14 And I saw, and lo, a Lamb having stood upon the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty-four thousands, having the name of his Father written upon their foreheads;




New American Standard Bible (NASB)
14 Then I looked, and behold, (A)the Lamb was standing on (B)Mount Zion, and with Him (C)one hundred and forty-four thousand, having (D)His name and the (E)name of His Father written (F)on their foreheads.

Common English Bible (CEB)
14 Then I looked, and there was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion. With him were one hundred forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.


Contemporary English Version (CEV)
14 I looked and saw the Lamb standing on Mount Zion![a] With him were a hundred forty-four thousand, who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.




every bible translation puts the number of those with Christ as 144,000. Where exactly is Christ in the mormon view?

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

"Revelation 7:4
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel." I

Alright now here are the holes
And I heard the number of them (we know they were members of the 12 tribes of Israel though is this literal or figuritive is Hole #1, Hole number #2 is does the word "them" only consist of the remnents of the house of Israel alive at that time, or is it speaking collectively as in 144,000 out of every person who has ever been a member of the 12 tribes of Israel?) which were sealed 144,000 of all the tribes of Israel.
These are the questions you are continually failing to answer.
That plus how does one know which tribe they are in or are from (figuritively or literally)?

On top of that there is still debate over which definition is correct in the word sealed.
Dictionary.com
seal1 [seel] Show IPA
noun
1.
an embossed emblem, figure, symbol, word, letter, etc., used as attestation or evidence of authenticity.
2.
a stamp, medallion, ring, etc., engraved with such a device, for impressing paper, wax, lead, or the like: The king took the seal from his finger and applied it to the document.
3.
the impression so obtained: It was unmistakably the royal seal on the document.
4.
a mark or symbol attached to a legal document and imparting a formal character to it, originally wax with an impression.
5.
a piece of wax or similar adhesive substance so attached to an envelope, folded document, etc., that it must be broken when the object is opened, insuring that the contents have not been tampered with or altered.
6.
anything that tightly or completely closes or secures a thing, as closures or fastenings for doors and railroad cars, adhesive stamps and tapes used to secure the flap of an envelope, etc.
7.
something that keeps a thing secret: Her vow was the seal that kept her silent.
8.
a decorative stamp, especially as given to contributors to a charitable fund: a Christmas seal.
9.
a mark, sign, symbol, or the like, serving as visible evidence of something.
10.
anything that serves as assurance, confirmation, or bond: She gave the plan her seal of approval.
11.
Plumbing.
a.
a small amount of water held by a trap to exclude foul gases from a sewer or the like.
b.
the depth of the part of the water that actually excludes the gases.
12.
the seals, British . the tokens or signs of public office.
to affix a seal to in authorization, testimony, etc.
14.
to assure, confirm, or bind with or as if with a seal: They sealed the bargain with a handshake.
15.
to impress a seal upon as evidence of legal or standard exactness, measure, quality, etc.
16.
to close by any form of fastening that must be broken before access can be gained.
17.
to fasten or close tightly by or as if by a seal: She was sealing envelopes. My lips are sealed.
to fasten or close tightly by or as if by a seal: She was sealing envelopes. My lips are sealed.
18.
to decide irrevocably: to seal someone's fate.
19.
to grant under one's seal or authority, as a pardon.
20.
Mormon Church . to make (a marriage or adoption) forever binding; solemnize.
21.
Electricity . to bring (a plug and jack or socket) into locked or fully aligned position.
22.seal off,
a.
to close hermetically: to seal off a jar.
b.
to block (an entrance, area, etc.) completely so as to prevent escape or entrance: The police sealed off the area after the bomb threat was received.

 

[Pegg]

"Revelation 7:4
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel." I

Alright now here are the holes
And I heard the number of them (we know they were members of the 12 tribes of Israel though is this literal or figuritive is Hole #1, Hole number #2 is does the word "them" only consist of the remnents of the house of Israel alive at that time, or is it speaking collectively as in 144,000 out of every person who has ever been a member of the 12 tribes of Israel?) which were sealed 144,000 of all the tribes of Israel.
These are the questions you are continually failing to answer.
That plus how does one know which tribe they are in or are from (figuritively or literally)?

well first of all, the list of tribes in Revelation do not correspond to the 12 tribes of Isreal. Dan is omitted and Levi is included. The original list of tribes includes Dan and omits Levi.
So we dont take the '12 tribes of Israel' to mean fleshly israel. There is your first hole filled in.

Your 2nd hole is regarding who are the 'them'. well thats easy. Jesus said that his 12 apostles were the beginning of the heavenly kingdom. They were the foundation stones of the 12 tribes. On the night of his death, he said to his 11 apostles:
28 “However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.
They were the first to be selected, and no doubt in the centuries after, individual christians continued to be selected until all the 144,000 spaces were filled. So your 2nd hole is now filled...only those christians selected by God would be among the 144,000.

On top of that there is still debate over which definition is correct in the word sealed.
Dictionary.com

look at the context of the scriptures...the dictionary is not going to help you understand the scriptures.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

well first of all, the list of tribes in Revelation do not correspond to the 12 tribes of Isreal. Dan is omitted and Levi is included. The original list of tribes includes Dan and omits Levi.
So we dont take the '12 tribes of Israel' to mean fleshly israel. There is your first hole filled in.

Your 2nd hole is regarding who are the 'them'. well thats easy. Jesus said that his 12 apostles were the beginning of the heavenly kingdom. They were the foundation stones of the 12 tribes. On the night of his death, he said to his 11 apostles:
28 “However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.
They were the first to be selected, and no doubt in the centuries after, individual christians continued to be selected until all the 144,000 spaces were filled. So your 2nd hole is now filled...only those christians selected by God would be among the 144,000.



look at the context of the scriptures...the dictionary is not going to help you understand the scriptures.

-So long as the words are in English, you need to understand English if you want to understand the words.

-So you believe that the 12 tribes of Israel were replaced by the 11 apostles who were then given the names of the 12 tribes? Thats a big assumption. Do you have anything to back up your claim? I know you just stated that Christ promised his apostles salvation, but it didn't say anywhere there that they would be replacing the fathers of the 12 tribes.
Was God's Covenant with Israel not forever? What do you have to back up your claim that God decided to back out of his covenant with Jacob/Israel? I also remember the scripture you previously shared concerning "God could raise out of stones children unto Abraham." I am not in disagreement with that, but is that a statement of divorcement? I don't think so. Yes it was saying that they could not get away with whatever they wanted to and still be saved because they were decedents of Abraham, but just because some of Abraham's children decide to back out of the covenant, does not mean that God divorced Israel and called off the covenant with Jacob/Israel.

 

[Sleeppy]

I stopped at number 4 for now. A flaming sword and Cherubim were placed to guard the Tree and prevent Adam and Eve. That's all that's explicitly stated. I'm supposing instead (of Number 4) that God must allow the consequences He had stated to Adam, namely death, to occur before any reversal is available. It is appointed that each man should die once (at least). Hebrews 9:27 and 2 Samuel 14:14 (which also specifies the coming of grace by, "accepts no person").

 

[Pegg]

-So long as the words are in English, you need to understand English if you want to understand the words.

-So you believe that the 12 tribes of Israel were replaced by the 11 apostles who were then given the names of the 12 tribes? Thats a big assumption. Do you have anything to back up your claim? I know you just stated that Christ promised his apostles salvation, but it didn't say anywhere there that they would be replacing the fathers of the 12 tribes.

Paul speaks of one who is “a Jew in name”, and then shows that if that one transgresses the law his “circumcision has become uncircumcision”. Likewise, if “an uncircumcised person keeps the righteous requirements of the Law, his uncircumcision will be counted as circumcision”.
Therefore, Paul says: “He is not a Jew that is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew that is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code.” (Rom. 2:12-29, NW)

That being the case, then the 12 tribes of Israel could contain x natural jews and y gentiles and all are still Israel.

Was God's Covenant with Israel not forever? What do you have to back up your claim that God decided to back out of his covenant with Jacob/Israel? I also remember the scripture you previously shared concerning "God could raise out of stones children unto Abraham." I am not in disagreement with that, but is that a statement of divorcement?

The prophet Jeremiah said that a new covenant was on the way

Jeremiah 30:31 “Look! There are days coming,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant; 32 not one like the covenant that I concluded with their forefathers in the day of my taking hold of their hand to bring them forth out of the land of Egypt, ‘which covenant of mine they themselves broke, although I myself had husbandly ownership of them,’ is the utterance of Jehovah.”

Jesus also made it clear that the prospects Israel alone had of entering the heavenly kingdom would be given to another nation
Matthew 21:42 Jesus said to them: “Did YOU never read in the Scriptures, ‘The stone that the builders rejected is the one that has become the chief cornerstone. From Jehovah this has come to be, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? 43 This is why I say to YOU, The kingdom of God will be taken from YOU and be given to a nation producing its fruits.

I don't think so. Yes it was saying that they could not get away with whatever they wanted to and still be saved because they were decedents of Abraham, but just because some of Abraham's children decide to back out of the covenant, does not mean that God divorced Israel and called off the covenant with Jacob/Israel.

no of course not. Abraham was faithful and the covenant remains in force for Abraham and his seed. But who are his seed really?
Christianity makes clear that his seed are those who adhere to his faith. Thats why a gentile can be become a child of Abraham....God sees them that way because they adhere to the faith of Abraham.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

I stopped at number 4 for now. A flaming sword and Cherubim were placed to guard the Tree and prevent Adam and Eve. That's all that's explicitly stated. I'm supposing instead (of Number 4) that God must allow the consequences He had stated to Adam, namely death, to occur before any reversal is available. It is appointed that each man should die once (at least). Hebrews 9:27 and 2 Samuel 14:14 (which also specifies the coming of grace by, "accepts no person").

Yes, that is what it is saying, that it was appointed that Adam and Eve should die, and if they were to partake of the tree of life God's plan would have been thwarted, so this is why he guarded the tree of life.

 

[Pegg]

Yes, that is what it is saying, that it was appointed that Adam and Eve should die, and if they were to partake of the tree of life God's plan would have been thwarted, so this is why he guarded the tree of life.

why make the tree of life in the first place if it could have destroyed Gods plan?

Did he make it by accident?

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Paul speaks of one who is “a Jew in name”, and then shows that if that one transgresses the law his “circumcision has become uncircumcision”. Likewise, if “an uncircumcised person keeps the righteous requirements of the Law, his uncircumcision will be counted as circumcision”.
Therefore, Paul says: “He is not a Jew that is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew that is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code.” (Rom. 2:12-29, NW)

That being the case, then the 12 tribes of Israel could contain x natural jews and y gentiles and all are still Israel.

Yes I agree, the law of circumcision was fulfilled.

The prophet Jeremiah said that a new covenant was on the way

Jeremiah 30:31 “Look! There are days coming,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant; 32 not one like the covenant that I concluded with their forefathers in the day of my taking hold of their hand to bring them forth out of the land of Egypt, ‘which covenant of mine they themselves broke, although I myself had husbandly ownership of them,’ is the utterance of Jehovah.”

Jesus also made it clear that the prospects Israel alone had of entering the heavenly kingdom would be given to another nation
Matthew 21:42 Jesus said to them: “Did YOU never read in the Scriptures, ‘The stone that the builders rejected is the one that has become the chief cornerstone. From Jehovah this has come to be, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? 43 This is why I say to YOU, The kingdom of God will be taken from YOU and be given to a nation producing its fruits.

And I believe in the Old Testament being the Old Covenant and the New Testament being the New Covenant. I believe in the parable of the Olive Tree, where the tree representing the house of Israel became corrupted and so the owner of the vineyard took of the branches of his olive tree and grafted them onto other olive trees throughout his vineyard (scattering Israel) and then in the last days took back the branches and grafted them once again back into the house of Israel. (the gathering of Israel)

no of course not. Abraham was faithful and the covenant remains in force for Abraham and his seed. But who are his seed really?
Christianity makes clear that his seed are those who adhere to his faith. Thats why a gentile can be become a child of Abraham....God sees them that way because they adhere to the faith of Abraham.

That is true, however I see a great emphasis on there being 12 tribes in Israel, wouldn't it be important then to know what tribe you are in?

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Anyways getting back to the point of the thread.

11 And now remember, my son, if it were not for the plan of redemption, (laying it aside) as soon as they were dead their souls were miserable, being cut off from the presence of the Lord.
12 And now, there was no means to reclaim men from this fallen state, which man had brought upon himself because of his own disobedience;
13 Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.
14 And thus we see that all mankind were fallen, and they were in the grasp of justice; yea, the justice of God, which consigned them forever to be cut off from his presence.
15 And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also.

Pegg, you agree with all of this am I right?