Do You Agree?

[Saint Frankenstein]

Might you personally think of becoming a police officer?

I would say they try to size up a situation instead of just walking in not knowing what and where they're going. I have friends that are teachers. They're not happy thinking that every day a madman with a gun could come in. And then it is impossible today to control many students, especially the younger ones. They can be violent and little is done to protect the teacher and others from a student's violence. Now teachers are being primed to think about having guns in the classroom. I wouldn't want a job as a teacher with a gun.

When we went to Rome I saw police with machine guns ready all over the place. I was not used to that, it was scary. The police were at the airports and literally stationed at banks. Armed with machine guns ready to shoot. Perhaps you might think that should happen in the U.S. and schools. Maybe there's not enough tax money to pay for this, since many rich people pay less taxes than lower income people, some millionaires or billionaires pay very little. So maybe there's just not enough money to cover all the bases.

None of this has anything to do with what I said.

 

[Suave]

They have various gases, they use, but they still need to be careful where and how they use them.
An unconscious civilian (child in this case) falling on a concrete floor, could result in a law suit against the police department.

There are so many things to be taken into consideration. It's not as simple as the movies make it seem.

If a child were killed in the crossfire between the active shooter and police storming the classroom, could the police have been sued?

 

[YoursTrue]

No, the cops deserve scorn. It seems to have been intentional, for whatever reason. After Columbine, it became common practice for cops to storm the location where there's an active shooter reported. That's the protocol.

No the police deserve pity, not scorn. The police have a hard job.

It's silly when laymen act like experts making such pronunciations. I have seen the videos and read up what ever I could, but I don't know what protocols the police have to go through and what they have been trained to do. These media guys can truly demonise human beings. It's good TV, but even the neighbours might call them murderers and devils. This happens all too frequently.

The police have a hard job. I'm grateful for the police. I know they are people; imperfect as we all are.

None of this has anything to do with what I said.

Yes, it does.

 

[YoursTrue]

If a child were killed in the crossfire between the active shooter and police storming the classroom, could the police have been sued?

Ask @Saint Frankenstein. He knows.
I'm not sure if there were violent demonstrations there, you know like overturning cars, breaking store windows, setting fire to police cars, etc.

 

[nPeace]

If a child were killed in the crossfire between the active shooter and police storming the classroom, could the police have been sued?

If the bullet is from the cop's gun, you can be sure there will be an investigation and court hearing. ... and this can happen.
Grossly Negligent: NYPD Sued for Shooting Innocent Bystanders

 

[YoursTrue]

Why don't they use other forms of violence? Violence in general is not common in Japan, and it is regarded as one of the safest nations on the planet.
And I do believe we, as people, do enjoy the vicarious violence of seeing it acted out in front of us. It doesn't matter if it's the wrestling of the WWF or a play of Shakespeare, people love, love, LOVE raunchy, lewd, violent mediums. It is absolutely no different with the ancient Greeks. The Romans took it too the extremes, but some societies have (and I would argue MMA too is an extreme). But these are very much looking to be the exceptions and not the norms, because Canada, Norway, Sweden, Austria, Denmark, places like them do have violent media but not have the violent people.

Well, it's said the Japanese have a high degree of suicide. But that is not quite the question. Why do you think many (not all) are thrilled by violence? It's a big money making industry for entertainment. You think it's in the genes, like evolution? Some people enjoy seeing bullfights, cockfights, boxing matches, football where they bash each others' heads in for fun of the sport, hmm-- seems somehow some people are geared that way to enjoy violence, you think?

 

[firedragon]

The thing is, they do so without having all the facts. That's the sad bit.

Hmm. You could be absolutely right.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Why do you think many (not all) are thrilled by violence?

It lets us vicariously experience what we can't do ourselves. And I dare say this all media. We like what we are attracted to, and that includes preferences for escapist behaviors and recreation. I'm a huge nerd and even have a complete LARP costume. I love doing that, but not many people do. Lots of people like movies with lots of big explosions and guns. I typically don't.

ou think it's in the genes, like evolution?

I have pondered this question, but have no real answers, only hypothetical ponderings.

Some people enjoy seeing bullfights, cockfights

I put these separate because I'm not entirely sure how I feel about these from an academic perspective. I personally hate such things and love it when a matador gets gored. But for all my hatred about everything that goes on (including enjoyment of them), I have to admit this may not be the psychotic behavior I tend to think it is. Especially in the West for a long time we have been raised to think we are above animals, they don't really have feelings, and so on. Bullfighting is old tradition in some parts. And we don't much empathize with the animals being killed in blood sport, nor with the ones we eat.

boxing matches, football where they bash each others' heads in for fun of the sport, hmm-- seems somehow some people are geared that way to enjoy violence, you think?

Participating in these sports, I do believe some may just be wired that way (such as needing an outlet for violent impulses). But the enjoyment of, again this is hard for me. These are real people. It's not a movie. But yet they suffer real injuries, including fatal brain injuries. There is the tribalism that is inherent in team sports, and the fans and participants often and generally otherwise aren't violent themselves. And because I don't like sports that much I haven't done much research into them.
But, I can say, the only other animal that shares in our habit of murder are chimpanzees, so it probably does have some genetic element to it. We are animals, after all.

 

[nPeace]

If a child were killed in the crossfire between the active shooter and police storming the classroom, could the police have been sued?

Did some research.
Liability Where Bystanders Shot By Police?
You can find more here.

 

[Dao Hao Now]

So the situation does not matter?
Why not rush into a building with a hostage situation, and squash SWAT? No need to call them in any situation.
They should not even take cover behind their vehicles either. Just stand in the open with guns blazing.

The first responders - the cops that went into the building 2 minutes behind the gunman, were the cops that were chasing the truck the gunman lost control of, and crashed.
That's why they got there so quickly.

They are regular street cops, who police the streets, and deal with traffic violations.
They give chase where the criminal tries to get away.
They call SWAT where there is an armed and dangerous menace. They don't put their lives in danger. They wait until SWAT arrives.
That's not wise?

I think people watch too many movies, and then think that's how real life plays out.

Then when cops shoot, out of fear for their lives, they are called criminals.

It's a tough job. Most cops work hard at doing a good job.
Some of these are fathers and mothers, husbands and wives, who want to go home to their families They deserve some credit, I think.

Getting the full picture helps too.

Nobody said it wasn’t a tough job.
I have several cops and law enforcement including SWAT in my family and friends. I’m fully aware of the demands of that job.
All of them understand the possibility of sacrifice involved.

Of course situations matter, that’s why they train for various situations.
Your hyperbolic hypothetical situation is so ridiculous I won’t even bother addressing the particulars.

While I didn’t see the particular broadcast you mentioned, I’ve seen a synopsis of the video just released that is undoubtedly what it was based around.

7 officers (all with body armor) arrive approximately 2 minutes after the shooter. After shots fired from the shooter they retreat down the hallway.
Within 20 minutes several more officers armed with long guns and ballistic shields arrive on scene. About 20 minutes after that, more shots are fired inside the classroom.
It was 1 hour and 17 minutes after the shooter entered the classroom, 1 hour and 15 minutes after the first officers arrived in the hallway, roughly 1 hour after officers with shields and long guns showed up in the hallway before they breached the room a took out the shooter.

As far as getting the full picture: it’s true the video is only from one vantage point and does not show what is going on at any other location, however it is very damning in what it does show.

Mind you, there were several innocent children a couple teachers who didn’t have weapons or body armor inside that room who were texting and calling 911 desperate for help during that 1 hour and 15 minutes while many were literally bleeding out who may have survived had help been rendered sooner, whilst fully trained (perhaps not well), officers with weapons, body armor, and ballistic shielding waited around in the hallway.

And yes all the children and teachers had families too. However none of them had signed on and swore an oath to protect the public.

So yes, situation definitely does matter!

 

[blü 2]

I watched a CNN cast condemn officers for not storming the classroom and taking out the gunman. One person even suggested those officers are not worthy to be cops, and should hand in their badge.
I watched the video - muted of course, since I didn't want to hear anything.
I think the first responders were not equipped either mentally, physically, or experienced enough to handle the situation.
The trained and equipped officers arrived 30 minutes later, and moved in a little after 15 minutes - no doubt after a briefing of the situation and planned action - taking out the gunman.
I think those CNN "experts" owe those cops an apology.
It seems many other people... including an ex chief of police agree with them.
What do you think... Would it have been wise for those cops to have stormed the classroom? What do you think might have been the outcome?

I really don't know.

I take it that there's a best way to handle such things, and that it can be taught and that this is what the commentators say should have been done.

But if none of the first responders had ever had that training, then they were staring at a blank page when it came to knowing what to do. It would then be a question of how quickly they called for expert help.

If on the other hand any of them knew the procedures but kept out of the way, then I tend to agree with the critics.

Whatever the answer, it's a point on a spectrum, not a simple yes or no.

 

[Lyndon]

So the situation does not matter?
Why not rush into a building with a hostage situation, and squash SWAT? No need to call them in any situation.
They should not even take cover behind their vehicles either. Just stand in the open with guns blazing.

The first responders - the cops that went into the building 2 minutes behind the gunman, were the cops that were chasing the truck the gunman lost control of, and crashed.
That's why they got there so quickly.

They are regular street cops, who police the streets, and deal with traffic violations.
They give chase where the criminal tries to get away.
They call SWAT where there is an armed and dangerous menace. They don't put their lives in danger. They wait until SWAT arrives.
That's not wise?

I think people watch too many movies, and then think that's how real life plays out.

Then when cops shoot, out of fear for their lives, they are called criminals.

It's a tough job. Most cops work hard at doing a good job.
Some of these are fathers and mothers, husbands and wives, who want to go home to their families They deserve some credit, I think.

Getting the full picture helps too.

Yeah to hell with all those dead children, its the cops lives that really matter??

 

[Clara Tea]

I watched a CNN cast condemn officers for not storming the classroom and taking out the gunman. One person even suggested those officers are not worthy to be cops, and should hand in their badge.
I watched the video - muted of course, since I didn't want to hear anything.
I think the first responders were not equipped either mentally, physically, or experienced enough to handle the situation.
The trained and equipped officers arrived 30 minutes later, and moved in a little after 15 minutes - no doubt after a briefing of the situation and planned action - taking out the gunman.
I think those CNN "experts" owe those cops an apology.
It seems many other people... including an ex chief of police agree with them.
What do you think... Would it have been wise for those cops to have stormed the classroom? What do you think might have been the outcome?

Religion is inexorably entwined with morality.

My county's police are the largest/population and most highly paid. Responding to grafitti, they say "what can I do about it?" They get paid to do something about it, not just ignore all crime and eat donuts.

When homeless people are caught shoplifting, they can't afford fines, so they are jailed (at taxpayer's expense). Three hots (meals) and a cot (bed). That is certainlyl not a deterrent for a homeless person.

It is standard procedure to call for backup and not go in unless they are safely in hot pursuit. But, when lives are on the line, they should intervene if possible. They should have already made up their minds that they would risk their lives when they signed up for the job. Their job should not be to stand around doing nothing as people are slaughtered.

Police work is among the safest. The Compton police department, in the middle of one of the worst ghettos in the United States, never had a work related death in the first 75 years of the department.

Burglars are rehabilitated (at taxpayer's expense) by learning lock-picking (uh....er.....make that locksmithing....no, I was right the first time). Violent criminals come out of prisons buffed, with six-pack abs and huge muscles. They are rehabilitated by learning the martial arts (so they can kill more effectively). Our criminal justice system is raising super-criminals.

Shopping carts are stolen as carts for the homeless. Smith Foods had to move out of the western United States because at $300/cart, they lost $1,000,000 in our local grocery store alone. I had a neighbor who would load up a truck with carts that he knew were stolen, and drive them to Mexico to sell them for $5/cart. His fat son was arrested with his feet flailing in the air, and his fat torso lodged in a pried open T-top while stealing a car.

Often shoplifters are allowed to take what they want. They might sue if arrested, but they usually can't afford that. But no money can be extracted from those who have no money.

It's hard to feel sorry for homeless people who steal little girl's bikes, cannibalize parts with other bikes to make them unrecognizable, then sell them. They have chosen the lifestyle of a thief rather than finging gainful employment.

Some beggers are sipping Arizona Tea ($1.50/can) while begging. When offered jobs, they decline. . . why work for money when they get handed free money?

We should have compassion for the poor and homeless. But many have chosen that lifestyle.

 

[Dao Hao Now]

Religion is inexorably entwined with morality.

My county's police are the largest/population and most highly paid. Responding to grafitti, they say "what can I do about it?" They get paid to do something about it, not just ignore all crime and eat donuts.

When homeless people are caught shoplifting, they can't afford fines, so they are jailed (at taxpayer's expense). Three hots (meals) and a cot (bed). That is certainlyl not a deterrent for a homeless person.

It is standard procedure to call for backup and not go in unless they are safely in hot pursuit. But, when lives are on the line, they should intervene if possible. They should have already made up their minds that they would risk their lives when they signed up for the job. Their job should not be to stand around doing nothing as people are slaughtered.

Police work is among the safest. The Compton police department, in the middle of one of the worst ghettos in the United States, never had a work related death in the first 75 years of the department.

Burglars are rehabilitated (at taxpayer's expense) by learning lock-picking (uh....er.....make that locksmithing....no, I was right the first time). Violent criminals come out of prisons buffed, with six-pack abs and huge muscles. They are rehabilitated by learning the martial arts (so they can kill more effectively). Our criminal justice system is raising super-criminals.

Shopping carts are stolen as carts for the homeless. Smith Foods had to move out of the western United States because at $300/cart, they lost $1,000,000 in our local grocery store alone. I had a neighbor who would load up a truck with carts that he knew were stolen, and drive them to Mexico to sell them for $5/cart. His fat son was arrested with his feet flailing in the air, and his fat torso lodged in a pried open T-top while stealing a car.

Often shoplifters are allowed to take what they want. They might sue if arrested, but they usually can't afford that. But no money can be extracted from those who have no money.

It's hard to feel sorry for homeless people who steal little girl's bikes, cannibalize parts with other bikes to make them unrecognizable, then sell them. They have chosen the lifestyle of a thief rather than finging gainful employment.

Some beggers are sipping Arizona Tea ($1.50/can) while begging. When offered jobs, they decline. . . why work for money when they get handed free money?

We should have compassion for the poor and homeless. But many have chosen that lifestyle.

Wow, talk about a non sequitur!

 

[stvdv]

The first responders were not sent there. They were behind the gunman, giving chase when he crashed. They went into the building behind him.
SWAT got the call, and were on their way, but sometimes take minutes because of where they may be at the time.

If the gunman had not crashed in front of the school, that incident would not have happened. SWAT would have caught up with him, or the cops, and I am sure his windshield would have been peppered. He was not about to go back to prison, and decided to take out his rage on little ones.

It was an unfortunate turn of events... and who know what influenced his mind.

Oh, thank you

When I read from you "I watched it, w/o sound of course" I decided not to listen, and got a total wrong picture, thanks for clarifying.

Wow, really unfortunate indeed.

Sometimes we wish "if we had not done this or done it differently". If those first responders had not chased him in the first place....

At least 1 less in the list of school shootings on purpose. That trend is really a horror and terrible

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I think it is very odd for people to defend cops allowing children and other civilians to be put on danger in order to protect themselves.

I mean, no matter what way you slice it, that is literally the opposite of what a cop is supposed to do.

 

[Aštra’el]

I get it. Serving your country means understanding you may have to lay down your life for it… but it is just amazing how some people spew constant anti-police rhetoric, with no respect towards law enforcement whatsoever, and in the same breath declare cops should be willing to die for them.

 

[Mock Turtle]

So now what might have happened if these police officers went into the room where the shooter was and the shooter killed them all and more children as well? Would that be better? Because that, too, could have happened. I am convinced that the proliferation of rampantly violent games and movies encourages such conduct in people that are off base mentally.

It might be so but I think you will have to provide evidence as to this being a true issue rather than just being one other factor in the mix as to why some behave as they do and most don't.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The cops were terrified. They never trained for this. They thought a job as a cop in a small border town would be an easy paycheck with very little danger to their lives. If I had been one of them I'd be peeing my pants standing outside wondering when they'd give me the order to storm the place. They stalled as long as they could to protect themselves. They wanted to help the kids but they were to cowardly. They should not be cops. Take off the star if you can't handle the danger.

PS is this a religious topic?

They didn't train for this?

My impression from the news coverage was that they did train for it, but the incident commander (the local chief of police, IIRC) completely misread the situation initially, and then was unwilling to change course even when confronted with contrary evidence.

It seems to me like it's mostly an issue of plan continuation bias at the senior level. I'm not sure if there was an issue with training of front line officers.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The cops responding to active shooter situations, obviously. They go in, they don't wait. They started using that tactic after they screwed up the response to Columbine.

They go in in a coordinated way to overwhelm the attacker. It's not the call of any individual officer.