Do you believe 11th September 2001 attacks was a conspiracy

[exchemist]

With threads like this one, what beats me is how people can entertain - and spread - suspicions about a well-known event, without even bothering to do a 10 second internet search to turn up relevant expert reports that answer their doubts.

This is the laziness that political groups can exploit to get people believing all sorts of lies and fake news.

Check your facts, People! It's really not hard.

 

[exchemist]

Even that website gives credit to the planes themselves (actually, planes, explosion, amd fire more specifically)

It wasn't just one or the other but a combination of things, and definitely wrong to try to promote the idea it was just fire that brought them down. Each on its own may not have.

Sure but they do say explicitly that the impact alone was insufficient to bring down the building.

 

[Lars]

The word "conspiracy theorist" is inappropriate , because as a jurist, I learnt from my Penal Law Professor that any crime is a conspiracy.
If there were no conspiracy, there would be no crime, and nobody would be arrested.

So yes...As a jurist I do doubt anything.

I am thinking of gatekeepers. It is a term that is already accepted in criminology. It deals with people who are paid to provide with information, which leads to a sensible truth, to cover up the truth.

Apparently i read recently that there is "Conspiracy theory that the term conspiracy theory was made popular by CIA in 1967 to undermine questioning the government"

They reference a document written of the fear of John F Kennedy assassination conspiracies." The idea that they dont believe in the narrative of the government. So some have used this as a reason to CIA popularizing conspiracy theories as a term to undermine questioning the state.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Sure but they do say explicitly that the impact alone was insufficient to bring down the building.

Yeah, and that's what I said it was a combination. The impact didn't do it on it's own, but it opened up the possibility of the fire adding to the damage to allow it. Had it just been a fire the buildings were designed for that and probably wouldn't have collapsed.

 

[Lars]

Some of the things surrounding 9/11 is really weird, but whether its a conspiracy or just a complete failure of the intelligence service in the US I don't know and we will probably never know, just as with JFK.
But regardless of that, I still think that one of the most weirdest things about it, which is not so much about whether its a conspiracy or not, is how quickly they got rid of all the rubble from the collapse. Because if im not mistaken high rise buildings like this have never collapsed due to fire before, so one would think that it would be extremely interesting for those working in the building industry to learn from this so they can improve on it, in future buildings.

But I don't know if any learning books on building designs got updated with anything from this event or not? But can't help notice how much effort is put into figuring out what happened when a plane crash, yet when three massive buildings collapses due to fire and one of them in less than an hour, no one seem especially interesting in figure out why and how to improve them. But then again maybe they did, im not that much into skyscraper design and construction to be honest

There was an attempt in 1993 to blow up the world trade center. But it failed back then. I guess the animated series of Spiderman 1994 is what led me to it. Since Punisher talks about it in one scene.
1993 World Trade Center bombing - Wikipedia

 

[Martin]

I don't know! But it is possible to give some reasonable guesses. I don't believe in LIHOP, but I wouldn't rule it out.

Clearly it was a massive intelligence failure, arguably similar to that preceding the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

But regardless of that, I still think that one of the most weirdest things about it, which is not so much about whether its a conspiracy or not, is how quickly they got rid of all the rubble from the collapse.

The cleanup effort ran from September 2001 thru May 2002. On what grounds do you claim this to be weirdly quick? Please include your credentials allowing you to pawn off the characterization as being the slightest bit informed.

Given the tragedy of 9/11, what's perversely weird is the quantity of baseless speculation thrown up in its wake.

 

[exchemist]

Yeah, and that's what I said it was a combination. The impact didn't do it on it's own, but it opened up the possibility of the fire adding to the damage to allow it. Had it just been a fire the buildings were designed for that and probably wouldn't have collapsed.

From what they write in that report, a fire of that intensity would have brought them down, eventually.

But it is true that one effect of the impact was to knock out the fire protection systems, which did not help. Even so, both buildings stood for an hour after the impact - until the loss of strength and twisting took the upper hand.

 

[ronki23]

Al Qaeda tried to destroy the World Trade Centre in 1993

Osama tried to kill Bill Clinton in 1995

Bin Laden allegedly planned to kill Clinton

He was responsible for the US Embassy attacks in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998 as well

1997 there was a massacre of tourists in Luxor, Egypt funded by Ayman Al Zawahiri

So there were at least 3 attacks on Americans before 9/11

 

[Martin]

Al Qaeda tried to destroy the World Trade Centre in 1993

Osama tried to kill Bill Clinton in 1995

Bin Laden allegedly planned to kill Clinton

He was responsible for the US Embassy attacks in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998 as well

1997 there was a massacre of tourists in Luxor, Egypt funded by Ayman Al Zawahiri

So there were at least 3 attacks on Americans before 9/11

Which strongly suggests the US didn't need a further "excuse" to target Al Qaeda, undermining the LIHOP theory.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Both versions of what happened are conspiracies, one purely Arabic, the other including the US government. In each case, people gathered together in secret to plan and commit a crime. That makes it a conspiracy right there whoever the principle players were.

But I suspect that you are really asking if it was an American conspiracy. I don't know. I remain agnostic. I still have unanswered questions that leave reasonable doubt for me concerning the official report, but it's not an issue any longer. It doesn't matter any more. If the US was involved, just as with the Kennedy assassination, they got away with it, and demonstrating that they did is as useless as naming Deep Throat decades after Watergate was. What difference does it make now who it was?

 

[ronki23]

Which strongly suggests the US didn't need a further "excuse" to target Al Qaeda, undermining the LIHOP theory.

Still don't get why we invaded Iraq though (I'm British). Iraq is worse off now

 

[Martin]

Still don't get why we invaded Iraq though (I'm British). Iraq is worse off now

I don't get it either, particularly given Iran's complicity in terrorism. You'll remember there was a lot of opposition here in the UK to the Iraq invasion.

 

[ronki23]

I don't get it either, particularly given Iran's complicity in terrorism. You'll remember there was a lot of opposition here in the UK to the Iraq invasion.

I wasn't too bothered about Iran until their refusal to release Nazanin

 

[Stevicus]

Still don't get why we invaded Iraq though (I'm British). Iraq is worse off now

I never really understood that, either, especially since Iraq was not connected to 9/11. Perhaps Bush Jr. wanted to finish the job his father started?

Reminds me of a line from the movie Patton: "The politicians never let us finish. They always stop short and leave us with another war."

There might have been a conspiracy to deceive the public into thinking that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction which given as the pretext for invading.

 

[Lars]

Still don't get why we invaded Iraq though (I'm British). Iraq is worse off now

Maybe to get control of the area. I can sorta get Afghanistan back then, since the argument of training terrorists atleast is plausible by Taliban running the country back then (an actual terrorist group) "No idea how Afghanistan is gonna develop now that US forces has backed out, but i understand they cant babysit them for eternity either, but considering Taliban has returned back to Afghanistan in a sense after US withdrawal". But Iraq was a dictatorship so why that was targeted is beyond me

 

[savagewind]

I think that there might be too many words here.

There is no doubt that what happened to the USA was a conspiracy. But, by whom or what? Is that what this thread is about?

 

[Nimos]

The Trade Towers were slammed into by two large aircraft, amd after that damage was done the massive fires did the rest. WTC7 was pummeled by debris and burned for hours.
You don't have to be an expert. You just have to read what they wrote and said about it.

See post 17 for details.

Yeah read that as well. The moment you search on anything in regards to 9/11, like why there are molten steel dripping from the towers when the fire is apparently not hot enough to melt it. Such things I would like to know. But the issue with it being a "hot" conspiracy makes it almost impossible to try to figure out, as you are faced with 1000s of conspiracy sites whenever you search for anything about it. But if any know the answer. I would be interesting in knowing?

So honestly I have given up trying to look at this or figure out truth from facts, maybe if I were qualified in structural engineering I would care. But I ain't

The cleanup effort ran from September 2001 thru May 2002. On what grounds do you claim this to be weirdly quick? Please include your credentials allowing you to pawn off the characterization as being the slightest bit informed.

Well the reason I say that, is as we know it happened 9/11 2001, given the time it takes to clean up, maybe they have to make an investigation, write official reports etc. After all its a pretty big crime scene.

However already in January 2002:

Mangled WTC steel bought by China from Chicago Tribune 27. January

As New Yorkers emotionally debate what kind of memorial should honor those killed in the Sept. 11 World Trade Center attack, 50,000 tons of mangled metal from the twin towers have been sold and shipped to China as scrap.

China's largest steel company denied reports that it plans to make souvenirs out of metal from the collapsed buildings. But officials at Shanghai Baosteel here said the company did buy scrap from the wreckage of the terrorist attack.

For those involved in the deal, the purchase was an ordinary business transaction.

"Scrap from the World Trade Center is cheap, and the quality is good," said Cao Xianggen, an engineer at Baosteel. "America can't use it all, but China has a huge demand for it."

For some victims' families, however, the selling of the steel that entombed their loved ones could prove an example of cold-hearted global trade.

The families had made emotional appeals to the city of New York to stop the recycling until further clues could be found about the towers' collapse. New York officials said the investigation could continue without the physical wreckage.

In New York, city officials confirmed that at least two companies had bid successfully on scrap material from the World Trade Center, but they said that they didn't know what had happened to the material after it was purchased....

Again, given the amount of material in all those buildings that has to be cleaned up, investigations etc. and in order to figure out how they collapsed, you would expect them to dig through and examine the steel and rubble for quite some time, especially given the size of the scene. Like you would any such scene, exactly as you would if it was a plane crash.

In comparison this is from a plane crash:
Three days after Asiana Airlines Flight 214 crash landed at San Francisco International Airport with the loss of two lives, there is still no official explanation for what caused the incident.

How long until we find out what happened with Flight 214?
The investigation will likely take many months. "We haven't even figured out how big the puzzle is going to be, much less how many pieces there are and how they will fit," said Sullenberger. "This is a painstaking, methodical, analytical process.
"One way of describing this whole investigatory process is that these investigators are in charge of writing a non-fiction detective story that may take a year to complete. It may eventually have 1,000 pages."

Again two people died here and yet they spend month of investigation. To me, and again I don't know a lot about it, but I would assume that a scene like 9/11 would require a lot of time to get to the bottom of and to learn from. Yet 3-4 month later, again including cleaning up the scene and investigating it etc. they get rid of all the steel and probably a lot of the other materials that could potentially be useful in learning exactly how this structure collapsed and so we could learn from it.

Im not talking about conspiracy stuff here, its the basic knowledge or learning from this collapse that I find strange that they gotten all out of it in such a short amount of time, when it takes many month for just a plane.

The issue is, the moment you ask questions about this you are instantly connected with supporting the conspiracy theorist, I don't care, I ask question about anything, if I think they are relevant or I find it weird. Nothing wrong in that.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So honestly I have given up trying to look at this or figure out truth from facts, maybe if I were qualified in structural engineering I would care. But I ain't

I've debated Truthers so much that at one point I forgot there were any clear and not blurry photos and videos of the attack.
Amd there's this video of a blacksmith who with his pinky alone demonstrated how weak both hot steel is and the argument fires (usually specifically an office fire) can't get hot enough to cause such problems with steel.
And all the stuff I've learned amd forgottwn about thermonano-I don't even care anymore particles.

 

[Nimos]

I've debated Truthers so much that at one point I forgot there were any clear and not blurry photos and videos of the attack.
Amd there's this video of a blacksmith who with his pinky alone demonstrated how weak both hot steel is and the argument fires (usually specifically an office fire) can't get hot enough to cause such problems with steel.
And all the stuff I've learned amd forgottwn about thermonano-I don't even care anymore particles.

I agree, im curios in nature and as I said in the last post, if I find something strange I want to know the explanation and apparently from what I can see there is no disagreement that steel can't melt at that temperature. Yet you have pictures like this:

And to me that is just weird and would like to know why, again just curios and again maybe we could learn something, maybe the temperatures somehow got so high or some unknown cause made it possible. From a knowledge point of view, I just think such thing would be worth learning about, its not like huge buildings like this collapses every day, so a lot of knowledge could come from this disaster and for the people that lost someone, I think the best thing to do is to learn as much as possible to give them the most satisfying answer and to help remove all doubt about a conspiracy, because evidently people jump on these. And from what I can see also a lot of qualified people questioning the official explanations for at least some of the things.

Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth
Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth | WTC Twin Towers and Building 7

Its a bit of a scandal that so many architects and engineers (If the numbers / occupations are correct) don't buy the official explanation, so maybe they should have spend some more time examining the things and taken the time to answer peoples questions, which apparently there is a lot of I guess.