Do You Believe in Free Will?

[idea]

OK. the first two are completely irrelevant. The third is relevant, but missing the point. It's not that we're saying that God controls us. It's that He knows what's going to happen. He decided that we could make our own decisions from the start, but, if he can see the end result, then it doesn't matter much. For instance, if He already knew for a fact, not your version of "knowing", that you would make those PBJs and you and the kids would eat them, then you effectively had no choice. You had to make the PBJs. You couldn't chane your mind and make grilled cheese, or go out to lunch or something because that's not part of the future God knows. If you did change things like that, then God didn't know the future in the first place, because the future couldn't be known in advance.

I think I am still not able to explain the concept - I am not a lib arts person, equations are easier for me to work with than words - Free will does not require indeterminancy. It only requires self-determinancy. It does not matter if the future is set in stone or not - the point is who sets it in stone - what is the cause. If you are your own cause, you set it in stone, then it is your will.

Everyone has a hard time getting themself out of the dominos game - causality.
What was the first cause? - for naturalists and theologists - and if you can answer that one, what was the cause of the first cause? - Do you see - it is impossible to have a first cause, meaning that there is none. Everything is eternal with no beginning and no end - no beginning = no first cause -

one eternal round

Take the dominos, place them in a circle. Allow the dominos to move of their own accord with no outside influence - one domino in the circle tpoples itslef (not toppled by an outside influence) the circle of dominos contains it's own causality. It topples around and around without an external cause - internal causality, self-causality. That is free will. Different times different numbers of dominos are standing - the circle is transformed over time - but it is not transformed from an outside entity, it is transformed from within - that is free will.

 

[idea]

Woah. Why do you believe this?

Why, then, do we toy with the notion of creating robots and giving them "free will"? Yes, if you CREATED a complex AI, and you had the mental capacity to keep up with that complexity... yes, you could probably SEE everything that AI will do before it happens.

HOWEVER, you are not the AI. It is making decisions FOR ITSELF. There is free will, and yet, I have the ability to predict what will happen.

Why is it so hard for people to see that these two concepts are not contradictory?

AI will never exist because robots are created. I am acutally rather familiar with the sub The ones who "learn" how to walk - do you know how they do it? They are given a program that tells them:

goal, reach point (x, y, z)
Random number generator - moves each piece one increment
Look at each move of each piece
question: Did this motion get you closer or farther away from point (x, y, z)?
if the motion of that piece got you closer, then repeat. For motion combinations that did not get you closer, go back to random number gen, and try again.

People mistake the random number generators for intelligence. It is nothing more than a program that a person creates. It will never be anything more than a program.

link

it is nothing more than a random number generator

 

[Magic Man]

I think I am still not able to explain the concept - I am not a lib arts person, equations are easier for me to work with than words - Free will does not require indeterminancy. It only requires self-determinancy. It does not matter if the future is set in stone or not - the point is who sets it in stone - what is the cause. If you are your own cause, you set it in stone, then it is your will.

Everyone has a hard time getting themself out of the dominos game - causality.
What was the first cause? - for naturalists and theologists - and if you can answer that one, what was the cause of the first cause? - Do you see - it is impossible to have a first cause, meaning that there is none. Everything is eternal with no beginning and no end - no beginning = no first cause -

one eternal round

Take the dominos, place them in a circle. Allow the dominos to move of their own accord with no outside influence - one domino in the circle tpoples itslef (not toppled by an outside influence) the circle of dominos contains it's own causality. It topples around and around without an external cause - internal causality, self-causality. That is free will. Different times different numbers of dominos are standing - the circle is transformed over time - but it is not transformed from an outside entity, it is transformed from within - that is free will.

I understand what you're saying. It's not that you're not explaining it well. It's just a different take on free will. True free will as most people describe it means that right now I can type anything I want, I'll just suffer the consequences. If God or anyone else knows beforehand what I'm going to type, because it's set in stone, then I can only type right now what is already set in stone and has already been seen by someone else. If I type anything else, then God or that other person didn't actually know or see the future. This does not mean that I don't cause these words to be typed, and that I don't cause most of my actions, but it does mean that I have less control over them than one would expect with free will.

It's like this: God sees the future, and in that future I work for Office Depot. I don't currently work at Office Depot, which means that I would have to start working there at some point for that future, which is set in stone, to be true and for God to actually see it. That means that when, in the future, Office Depot offers me a job, I have no choice but to take it. I might think that I'm making a decision, but really I'm just following the path already seen by God. I'm still the one accepting the job, and causing the action, but it's not very free in that way.

 

[idea]

I understand what you're saying. It's not that you're not explaining it well. It's just a different take on free will. True free will as most people describe it means that right now I can type anything I want, I'll just suffer the consequences. If God or anyone else knows beforehand what I'm going to type, because it's set in stone, then I can only type right now what is already set in stone and has already been seen by someone else. If I type anything else, then God or that other person didn't actually know or see the future. This does not mean that I don't cause these words to be typed, and that I don't cause most of my actions, but it does mean that I have less control over them than one would expect with free will.

It's like this: God sees the future, and in that future I work for Office Depot. I don't currently work at Office Depot, which means that I would have to start working there at some point for that future, which is set in stone, to be true and for God to actually see it. That means that when, in the future, Office Depot offers me a job, I have no choice but to take it. I might think that I'm making a decision, but really I'm just following the path already seen by God. I'm still the one accepting the job, and causing the action, but it's not very free in that way.

Although God knows everything, obviously we do not. We are not here proving to God who we are, we are proving to our self who we are. It is a journey of self-discovery.

The real question, are we able to escape the confines of our own nature?
Yes - through our interactions with what is around us.
emergence again:

2 birds + 2 birds = 4 birds + an organized formation.

Where did the organized formation come from? Not from the original birds - a single bird flying all by itself will NEVER form a formation. It is created out of interactions, not out of parts - go read the relativity thread again... #54. You can read about emergence on Wiki too... through interactions, not only does the whole become greater than the sum - the parts can actually change their very nature through chosen interactions. Through interactions we are able to escape the confines of our very nature, we can change ourself.

What is the entire point of the Bible? Every single commandment is about interactions - don't steal, be humble, be selfless, don't lie, don't murder, love - these are all about interactions with one another.
It is through our interactions that we are able to escape our own nature and actually have free will. Matter and energy are confined by conservation principles. Interactions are not. There is infinite potential - unlimited ability to form whatever you want, when you work constructively with others.

 

[Magic Man]

Although God knows everything, obviously we do not. We are not here proving to God who we are, we are proving to our self who we are. It is a journey of self-discovery.

The real question, are we able to escape the confines of our own nature?
Yes - through our interactions with what is around us.
emergence again:

2 birds + 2 birds = 4 birds + an organized formation.

Where did the organized formation come from? Not from the original birds - a single bird flying all by itself will NEVER form a formation. It is created out of interactions, not out of parts - go read the relativity thread again... #54. You can read about emergence on Wiki too... through interactions, not only does the whole become greater than the sum - the parts can actually change their very nature through chosen interactions. Through interactions we are able to escape the confines of our very nature, we can change ourself.

What is the entire point of the Bible? Every single commandment is about interactions - don't steal, be humble, be selfless, don't lie, don't murder, love - these are all about interactions with one another.
It is through our interactions that we are able to escape our own nature and actually have free will. Matter and energy are confined by conservation principles. Interactions are not. There is infinite potential - unlimited ability to form whatever you want, when you work constructively with others.

OK...but does God know the future or not?

 

[Kungfuzed]

I think I am still not able to explain the concept - I am not a lib arts person, equations are easier for me to work with than words - Free will does not require indeterminancy. It only requires self-determinancy. It does not matter if the future is set in stone or not - the point is who sets it in stone - what is the cause. If you are your own cause, you set it in stone, then it is your will.

Everyone has a hard time getting themself out of the dominos game - causality.
What was the first cause? - for naturalists and theologists - and if you can answer that one, what was the cause of the first cause? - Do you see - it is impossible to have a first cause, meaning that there is none. Everything is eternal with no beginning and no end - no beginning = no first cause -

one eternal round

Take the dominos, place them in a circle. Allow the dominos to move of their own accord with no outside influence - one domino in the circle tpoples itslef (not toppled by an outside influence) the circle of dominos contains it's own causality. It topples around and around without an external cause - internal causality, self-causality. That is free will. Different times different numbers of dominos are standing - the circle is transformed over time - but it is not transformed from an outside entity, it is transformed from within - that is free will.

That's just it though, weather there is a beginning or not does not separate us from the web of causality, it doesn't make us any less interdependant from the rest of the universe. Each domino is still falling as a result of the one that hit it, all determined by the way they are arranged, regardless of weather the first domino fell on it's own or not. To have free will, we have to exist without dominoes. We have to exist in a form that is not subject to cause and effect, independant from physical law. One scenario is that we have always existed, not in physical form, but in supernatural form, spirits inhabiting physical bodies, and the future cannot be known even by God.

 

[logician]

If there is no free will, then you have a helpless supposed god whose actions are also predetermined. Therefore an omniscient and by inference an omnipotent god cannot exist.

 

[Kungfuzed]

The physical nature is not the only alternative to a "soul" that guides things --ideas I've heard include other natures, including the mental, emotive and 'cosmic consciousness'.

I'd like to hear more about this.

 

[Kungfuzed]

Although God knows everything, obviously we do not. We are not here proving to God who we are, we are proving to our self who we are. It is a journey of self-discovery.

The real question, are we able to escape the confines of our own nature?
Yes - through our interactions with what is around us.
emergence again:

2 birds + 2 birds = 4 birds + an organized formation.

Where did the organized formation come from? Not from the original birds - a single bird flying all by itself will NEVER form a formation. It is created out of interactions, not out of parts - go read the relativity thread again... #54. You can read about emergence on Wiki too... through interactions, not only does the whole become greater than the sum - the parts can actually change their very nature through chosen interactions. Through interactions we are able to escape the confines of our very nature, we can change ourself.

What is the entire point of the Bible? Every single commandment is about interactions - don't steal, be humble, be selfless, don't lie, don't murder, love - these are all about interactions with one another.
It is through our interactions that we are able to escape our own nature and actually have free will. Matter and energy are confined by conservation principles. Interactions are not. There is infinite potential - unlimited ability to form whatever you want, when you work constructively with others.

How is it that our interactions are not determined and bound by our nature?

 

[idea]

How is it that our interactions are not determined and bound by our nature?

interactions can change our nature rather than being bound by it.

many interactions are irreducable to the individual part. (relativity - a single object has no velocity, or gravity, or energy - KE = 1/2 mv^2, PE = mgh etc... all of these quantities are not undefined or undiscovered or zero - these literally do not exist in any form until there is an interaction. They are a product of the interaction, and not of the part, therefore not controlled by the part.

If there is no free will, then you have a helpless supposed god whose actions are also predetermined. Therefore an omniscient and by inference an omnipotent god cannot exist.

A being with no free will can exist side by side with a being that has free will.
The existence of one does not exclude the existence of another. Perhaps one of the things that differentiates humans from the rest is our free will. I am not sure that anything else has it, I could be wrong though...

7 O how great is the nothingness of the children of men; yea, even they are less than the dust of the earth.
8 For behold, the dust of the earth moveth hither and thither, to the dividing asunder, at the command of our great and everlasting God.

ie - the dust will always obey, no free will, mankind will not obey

I still say He is all powerful because He can pretty much take away our free agency if He wants to - He chooses not to though.

you cannot "control" a being and allow it to retain its free will.
You can however change a being without forcing them to change - you teach them something, they follow of their own accord. I think God understands how to do this, so that is pretty much "all powerful". It is all in how that power is used. forcing someone to do something vs. persuading them to do it on their own...

of course some people take more persuading than others

 

[Kungfuzed]

interactions can change our nature rather than being bound by it.

many interactions are irreducable to the individual part. (relativity - a single object has no velocity, or gravity, or energy - KE = 1/2 mv^2, PE = mgh etc... all of these quantities are not undefined or undiscovered or zero - these literally do not exist in any form until there is an interaction. They are a product of the interaction, and not of the part, therefore not controlled by the part.

The parts together determine the interaction and the interaction determines the product of the interaction. Still looks like a row of dominoes to me. Protons, neutrons and electrons make atoms, atoms make molecules, molecules make cells, and cells make bricks and bricks make a building. One atom doesn't make a building, it takes all of them together. It's all part of the nature of our universe. Interactions are determined by the properties of the particles involved. Nature and physics includes the interactions of parts and not just the individual parts themselves.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Even if one of those toys had speared you through the stomach and left you unconscious? It's extreme, but the point of that was to show that you might will it to happen, but that doesn't mean it's going to. You're "knowing" it was not the same as God knowing the future.



That's true, but irrelevant.



OK. the first two are completely irrelevant. The third is relevant, but missing the point. It's not that we're saying that God controls us. It's that He knows what's going to happen. He decided that we could make our own decisions from the start, but, if he can see the end result, then it doesn't matter much. For instance, if He already knew for a fact, not your version of "knowing", that you would make those PBJs and you and the kids would eat them, then you effectively had no choice. You had to make the PBJs. You couldn't chane your mind and make grilled cheese, or go out to lunch or something because that's not part of the future God knows. If you did change things like that, then God didn't know the future in the first place, because the future couldn't be known in advance.

Thanks... You beat me to it.

But too the last part......No matter what the decision one makes...(the christian, muslim, jewish) God knew it. Say you say...I'm going in the kitchen to make a PBJ but you get up from the couch and decide to go to Burger King instead.....This god already knew what the outcome would be. He had predetermined all of your choices and actions. This is one reason I take issue with an supposed omnipotent/omniscient that says...Do as I say or I will punish you.......

What's the point? It's moot since he already knows what decisions you will make. You're setup to fail from the get go. Some say...So what? Knowing the future is not the same as causing it....but if the future is known by the omniscient then what's the point? You will undoubtedly be submitting to its will...no matter what you do. Now...Did God create time????? If he created time then does it not stand to reason that everything that happens with time is his creation? If there was God and nothing but God and he cause space and time to be then he is the controller of everything that happens within space and time. Past present (if there is such a thing) and future is all of his doing.


Just because you believe you made a choice doesn't mean you had a choice....


gods, free will etc....are all illusions man has invented.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

In evolution "we" started as organic soup. It is to say that that organic soup did not have free will, neither did onecelled creatures. It could be hard to understand when that free will was implanted. Possible would be the option that free will evolved with us though, but then what is half a free will or will we have more free will further in evolution?

Free will could also have been part of the organic soup ofcourse. Personally I find that hard to explain to myself though..

To me, Free Will has always existed, as long as life has been around. It simply gained a name when a sapient species (us) finally had the time and inclination to discuss it.

It will be here until the last living creature perishes - whether there is a species intelligent enough to discuss it or not.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

Without a soul, we are completely physical. Everything that we are is determined by nature, not our will. Where and when we are born, genetics and enviornment decide who we will be. Our brain and our mind are one and the same, our brain being a physical object, and our mind being the physiology of the brain. Physical object obey physical laws and can't deviate from that. Our mind is entirely constrained by the physical processes of the brain and can't deviate from that. Everything that happens in our brain can only happen one way without breaking the laws of physics. There is no room to think or feel or choose anything different. For us to be truly free, our mind would have to be separate from our body and even from the physical universe we live in, free from all laws and causality.

Kung -

I understand what you are saying, but to me, when we discuss Free Will, I am talking specifically about whether a person has a choice in how to live their lives - as opposed to predestination.

When you discuss whether we can fly, or violate the laws of physics, I think we have crossed from Free Will into a discussion about metaphysics.

 

[d3vaLL]

If anyone has read "A Brief History of Time," then you know about the proven illusion of time. Thus, if God is outside the sphere of the universe (which he HAD to be), then he is not subject to time and can see the end as well as the beginning. Think of it this way: the universe is already done. Everything has already happened...that at least takes you a little closer to the reality, proven both scientifically which backs up the idea that God can see the future.

I make talk and wield like an Atheist, but I'm not really there yet. It just makes no physical sense that anything exists at all. Matter cannot be created nor destroyed...but here we are. I'm not saying this because I know better, I'm saying this because I don't. SO! If anyone has any dumbed down version of Quantum Physics or at last a good way to explain why the universe has no beginning, PLEASE do so! I remember Hawking mentioning how basic physical laws break down in massive gravitational fields (black holes). I'm starting to think that theoretical physics is the only way you're going to get close to answering questions like Free Will and determinism.

I still think Free Will is an illusion. I mean no one here has given ANY example of a free will that they've seen or done in their lifetime without being penetrated by the obvious motives. In either case, the world is a paradox.

 

[logician]

If anyone has read "A Brief History of Time," then you know about the proven illusion of time. Thus, if God is outside the sphere of the universe (which he HAD to be), then he is not subject to time and can see the end as well as the beginning. Think of it this way: the universe is already done. Everything has already happened...that at least takes you a little closer to the reality, proven both scientifically which backs up the idea that God can see the future.

I make talk and wield like an Atheist, but I'm not really there yet. It just makes no physical sense that anything exists at all. Matter cannot be created nor destroyed...but here we are. I'm not saying this because I know better, I'm saying this because I don't. SO! If anyone has any dumbed down version of Quantum Physics or at last a good way to explain why the universe has no beginning, PLEASE do so! I remember Hawking mentioning how basic physical laws break down in massive gravitational fields (black holes). I'm starting to think that theoretical physics is the only way you're going to get close to answering questions like Free Will and determinism.

I still think Free Will is an illusion. I mean no one here has given ANY example of a free will that they've seen or done in their lifetime without being penetrated by the obvious motives. In either case, the world is a paradox.

Actually, modern theories posit the universe as being part of an eternal multiverse, where the existence of a creator god is unneeded and irrelevant. Our universe is just one in an unending sea of universes that are born and die. "Time" itself is a local phenomenon not a universal one.

 

[d3vaLL]

Actually, modern theories posit the universe as being part of an eternal multiverse, where the existence of a creator god is unneeded and irrelevant. Our universe is just one in an unending sea of universes that are born and die. "Time" itself is a local phenomenon not a universal one.

Time is because of the whole gravitational force thing. You know I try to apply this concept to think further to get the concept better, but it is so hard. Ahah, I can only get it for like 10 minutes before I have to remind myself how or why it works that way.

 

[Willamena]

Actually, modern theories posit the universe as being part of an eternal multiverse, where the existence of a creator god is unneeded and irrelevant. Our universe is just one in an unending sea of universes that are born and die. "Time" itself is a local phenomenon not a universal one.

So where did the eternal multiverse come from?

 

[Kungfuzed]

So where did the eternal multiverse come from?

From the super ultra megaverse of course.

 

[d3vaLL]

So where did the eternal multiverse come from?

Exactly. :clap