Do You Believe in Ghosts and Spirits?

[cambridge79]

I do not claim proof of anything but I believe ghosts exist beyond all reasonable doubt from the less dramatic things I have experienced to the more dramatic things people I know have experienced, to the strong cases of innumerable collected stories. As an avid student of the paranormal I am well aware of all the skeptical explanations but I objectively do not find them anywhere near sufficient to explain the body of experiences. This is just my own objective judgement.

i actually was an avid reader of paranormal things too and i used to believe many of those stories but after i've developed my rational skills i've come up to the conclusion that i've never been put in front of something that couldn't end up being explained.
Basically all the stories i've read can end up in the following categories:
1 - story so vague that you can't check on their claims, you can only believe them cause you want to believe them.
2 - pure legends, usually based on local folklore.
3 - stories that got embellished over time, and if you go and actually study them you see many of the things that are usually taken as true are completely made up or the people narrating them are totally unreliable.
4 - deliberate frauds, where people involved tried to make money, or obtain fame trough their stories, like all the mediums out there or those who tells there's a ghost in their castle so people go there and spend money in their castle.
5 - misinterpretations, like a man falling down a window and someone telling "oh it was pushed off by a ghost!"

 

[George-ananda]

i actually was an avid reader of paranormal things too and i used to believe many of those stories but after i've developed my rational skills i've come up to the conclusion that i've never been put in front of something that couldn't end up being explained.
Basically all the stories i've read can end up in the following categories:
1 - story so vague that you can't check on their claims, you can only believe them cause you want to believe them.
2 - pure legends, usually based on local folklore.
3 - stories that got embellished over time, and if you go and actually study them you see many of the things that are usually taken as true are completely made up or the people narrating them are totally unreliable.
4 - deliberate frauds, where people involved tried to make money, or obtain fame trough their stories.
5 - misinterpretation, like a man falling down a window and someone telling "oh it was pushed off by a ghost!"

Well, I have heard innumerable stories satisfied by none of the above explanations.

 

[cambridge79]

Well, I have heard innumerable stories satisfied by none of the above explanations.

well, i've heard a story once about a two headed koala riding a unicorn and saving the world. It was a nice story, very well written. I could share it with you to entertain you but i highly doubt it would be enough for you to start believing in unicorns and two headed koalas. I want to hope you will need more than that. Because you know, when put in front of such spectacular claims a man should require spectacular evidences in order to jump on that train.

 

[vaguelyhumanoid]

Pretty solid "yes" on this one, based on experiences reported by people I trust.

That doesn't mean that I accept everything attributed to "ghosts and spirits". I value reason highly. And I do wish that materialist atheists would stop treating "haha you're ridiculous" as some kind of wonderfully clever debate tactic.

 

[cruxette]

So here's a question. Do you believe in ghosts or spirits, why or why not?

Yes. But first of all let me say that I don't like the term "ghost or spirit". I would prefer to use a term such as "energy". Why do I believe? Well, when I was about 9 I met one. Yes. I am serious. Not trying to be funny.

One night I opened one of my cupboards and on the wall was a figure of an ornate serpent that leered back at me. Then the world vanished and there was endless sand. There were three figures who were chanting what to me was gibberish. They wore strips of cloth on their forehead [ turbans?].

Over time I concluded that I had run into an earth spirit. We had moved into the house about a year ago. It was a spirit that wanted to know us and if we would harm the land.

 

[Astravalon]

And I do wish that materialist atheists would stop treating "haha you're ridiculous" as some kind of wonderfully clever debate tactic.

While I've come to appreciate the balance that the
atheist's logic and reason can generally bring to a
topic, when it comes to the paranormal, I have also
noticed the above tendency, sometimes accompanied by a
kind of uneasy sarcasm with undertones of "Okay this
makes me nervous can we please change the subject
already?!?"—even with those who might otherwise be
very level-headed when discussing other topics. It’s
almost kind of jolting coming from otherwise level-
headed corners of the room.

Just as a fear of life ending is sometimes attributed to
the acceptance of ghosts / spirits, I see a fear of life
never ending attributed to the, almost militant, denial
thereof. There are things I have no proof of, but it
doesn’t drive to me to engage in an almost panic-
tinged derision of those who believe in them. If life
ends after death, great—I could use the sleep. If it
doesn’t, great—I could use the adventure!

-

 

[George-ananda]

There are things I have no proof of, but it
doesn’t drive to me to engage in an almost panic-tinged derision of those who believe in them.
-

Yes, I agree. The emotional vehemence that the paranormal seems to arouse in many atheists is telling of something deeper than love of reason.

 

[cambridge79]

Pretty solid "yes" on this one, based on experiences reported by people I trust.

That doesn't mean that I accept everything attributed to "ghosts and spirits". I value reason highly. And I do wish that materialist atheists would stop treating "haha you're ridiculous" as some kind of wonderfully clever debate tactic.

Is it too much asking for some actual proof to back these claims that goes beyond the campfire tales or is this considered an outrageous and disrespecting request too?

 

[cambridge79]

Yes. But first of all let me say that I don't like the term "ghost or spirit". I would prefer to use a term such as "energy". Why do I believe? Well, when I was about 9 I met one. Yes. I am serious. Not trying to be funny.

One night I opened one of my cupboards and on the wall was a figure of an ornate serpent that leered back at me. Then the world vanished and there was endless sand. There were three figures who were chanting what to me was gibberish. They wore strips of cloth on their forehead [ turbans?].

Over time I concluded that I had run into an earth spirit. We had moved into the house about a year ago. It was a spirit that wanted to know us and if we would harm the land.

When I was even younger I claimed to have seen the ghost of my grandpa in the room, I remember pointing at it and telling my mom that was there "how can't you see it?" Only problem is that my grandpa was alive and well at that time so that couldn't be a ghost.

Another time when I was much older and already a skeptic rationalist I had a dream in wich my grandma told me she was gonna die very soon and she was saying me farewell. That could have been a very important experience if by chance she would have died the next day but she lived more than 10 years after that episode.

We have to accept the fact that our brains pulls all sort of tricks on us. Especially when we are kids, the brain is developing and the border between what is real and what is not is shady. Who has never tought during night when he was a kid that a monster was watching him? I don't think you re dishonest telling your story, I think you probably simply misinterpreted what happened there. All these ghost stories are always "this thing happened to that people or even to me" but you never have anything concrete, only stories. Same with exorcisms, or Bigfoot, or fairies, basically same as all those things that aren't real.

 

[cambridge79]

Yes, I agree. The emotional vehemence that the paranormal seems to arouse in many atheists is telling of something deeper than love of reason.

The emotional vehemence is not inspired by the paranormal itself but by the general attitude of those believing in it that on the long run becomes at times quite annoying.
Here is an example of what usually happens, that can describe almost 95% of the discussions on the subject.

Paranormal believers make a claim on something spectacular with the same nonchalance as if they were talking about common and accepted as true things like cats and flowers
Than rational people goes "wait a minute" and simply ask for proofs
Than believers can't provide any, or simply claim they dont need to provide but still they believe
Than you point to the fact that is a dishonest behaviour
Than they say it is not
At that point you show them that applying the very same logic to something obviously ridiculous like a three headed monkey spitting fire would lead to a conclusion that even them would reject.
At that point, since they can't evade that, they tell you you re mocking them and disrespecting them playing the victim card.

Finally they keep on in their storytelling like nothing has happened, not a single doubt in their mind was awaken, only thing that they remember about the whole discussion is that you ve made fun of what they believe in and because of that you're their enemy now.
In The end in the world they build in their minds they mature the conviction that ghost 100% exists, no need to even doubt it, and you re a disrepecting person for doing that when the only thing you ve done is asking for proofs which would actually be considered not only a legitimate behaviour but actually the first thing to do in any other possible situation.

Obviously the very same fate will wait for this very post.

 

[George-ananda]

The emotional vehemence is not inspired by the paranormal itself but by the general attitude of those believing in it that on the long run becomes at times quite annoying.
Here is an example of what usually happens, that can describe almost 95% of the discussions on the subject.

Paranormal believers make a claim on something spectacular with the same nonchalance as if they were talking about common and accepted as true things like cats and flowers
Than rational people goes "wait a minute" and simply ask for proofs
Than believers can't provide any, or simply claim they dont need to provide but still they believe
Than you point to the fact that is a dishonest behaviour
Than they say it is not
At that point you show them that applying the very same logic to something obviously ridiculous like a three headed monkey spitting fire would lead to a conclusion that even them would reject.
At that point, since they can't evade that, they tell you you re mocking them and disrespecting them playing the victim card.

Finally they keep on in their storytelling like nothing has happened, not a single doubt in their mind was awaken, only thing that they remember about the whole discussion is that you ve made fun of what they believe in and because of that you're their enemy now.
In The end in the world they build in their minds they mature the conviction that ghost 100% exists, no need to even doubt it, and you re a disrepecting person for doing that when the only thing you ve done is asking for proofs which would actually be considered not only a legitimate behaviour but actually the first thing to do in any other possible situation.

The evidence is very strong for one who has studied it with an objective mind; actually beyond reasonable doubt.

Obviously the very same fate will wait for this very post.

No sense in that.

 

[LionDog1]

So here's a question. Do you believe in ghosts or spirits, why or why not?

I don't believe in ghosts, but I do believe in spirits as in evil spirits, but that may be due to my religious upbringing.

 

[LionDog1]

I do like watching movies and shows on the paranormal though.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

While I've come to appreciate the balance that the
atheist's logic and reason can generally bring to a
topic, when it comes to the paranormal, I have also
noticed the above tendency, sometimes accompanied by a
kind of uneasy sarcasm with undertones of "Okay this
makes me nervous can we please change the subject
already?!?"—even with those who might otherwise be
very level-headed when discussing other topics. It’s
almost kind of jolting coming from otherwise level-
headed corners of the room.

Just as a fear of life ending is sometimes attributed to
the acceptance of ghosts / spirits, I see a fear of life
never ending attributed to the, almost militant, denial
thereof. There are things I have no proof of, but it
doesn’t drive to me to engage in an almost panic-
tinged derision of those who believe in them. If life
ends after death, great—I could use the sleep. If it
doesn’t, great—I could use the adventure!

-

I think there is something to that- two sides of the coin. Yes our minds and memories can play tricks, be distorted by time and wishful thinking, and it can do so both ways.

Apologies if you heard this one, but a family member died in our house, we were all staunch skeptics of anything 'paranormal'.

When all the timepieces in the house stopped, clocks, watches, even in the cars, it was impossible not to acknowledge it, uncomfortable as it was, and we all strove to write it off as coincidence and never mention it again, despite the staggering odds of such a thing.

And I never mention it to anyone I know now because I know how it sounds. I know how I would regard anyone else telling that story- weak minded, overly indulged in fantasy, unreliable. But get to know anybody very well, and almost everyone has these experiences, they offer little practical use in everyday life, and sometimes only disturbing implications, so it is always easier to forget them and comfort ourselves with an entirely rational, natural life, even though we can't begin to explain what that's all about either!

 

[lovesong]

Do you believe in ghosts or spirits,

I do believe in spirits. I believe in ghosts also as a high concentration of lingering death energy.

why or why not?

I practice necromancy, believing in spirits is one of the backbones of that.

 

[George-ananda]

uncomfortable as it was

I'm curious. I know my mindset after studying paranormal things for decades might not be like the average person, but why feel uncomfortable and why not talk about it and share it with others. I hear this all the time that people are reticent to talk about their experiences and it frustrates and confuses me. Are we so under the thought-police of materialist science??

 

[Guy Threepwood]

I'm curious. I know my mindset after studying paranormal things for decades might not be like the average person, but why feel uncomfortable and why not talk about it and share it with others. I hear this all the time that people are reticent to talk about their experiences and it frustrates and confuses me. Are we so under the thought-police of materialist science??

I'm more open with it now- a few decades later! I think most people are the same, the older we get, the more these experiences accumulate, and become more difficult to dismiss? The more we learn how much we don't know? But in a larger perspective, maybe it has to remain obscure, limited to glimpses, a matter of speculation, belief. We have to live in and focus on the present, this life, how else could it work?

 

[George-ananda]

I'm more open with it now- a few decades later! I think most people are the same, the older we get, the more these experiences accumulate, and become more difficult to dismiss? The more we learn how much we don't know? But in a larger perspective, I think it has to remain obscure, limited to glimpses, a matter of speculation, belief, we have to live in and focus on the present, this life, how else could it work?

Ok, I hear you. I just think in these modern times we need to hear the evidence that we are more than just material objects; which is a very prevalent view today. I was just wondering why your initial reaction was one of discomfort (especially as a non-atheist).

 

[GoodbyeDave]

I've never seen a ghost, but I've known educated and sensible people who have, so I accept their experiences.

Naturally the atheists will demand "proof", by which they actually mean "proof of the only sort that is acceptable to us" (and often "proof of the sort that would be impossible to give"), but what else can you expect from those who think nearly 90% of mankind are delusional? From a clinical point of view, isn't believing that everyone around you is delusional a sign of being delusional yourself? But I digress…

The idea that humans have a single soul is a largely Western one, incorporated into Christianity but derived from Aristotelian philosophy. Most cultures believe in at least two souls, which anthropologists call the free soul and the body soul (Old English gast and sawol, Chinese hun and po for example). After death, the free soul goes off to wherever they go to, and the body soul dissipates. In some circumstances, the body soul may linger and that's a ghost: just a mindless image that will eventually fade. Very rarely it would seem that the free soul may remain, if it wants to attract attention to get something done.

 

[ScottySatan]

they actually mean "proof of the only sort that is acceptable to us"

I think that's more a symptom of the human condition than atheism.