Desert Snake
Veteran Member
If that were true, you would not have to rewrite the Bible, to match your theology.
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Do you believe that Jesus is YHVH?
- Thread starter Desert Snake
- Start date
If that were true, you would not have to rewrite the Bible, to match your theology.
I have not had to rewrite a thing Jesus taught. I subscribe to the same "theology" as Jesus did. He was Jewish and the Jews did not teach a trinity. The apostles did not teach a trinity either. There are lots of trinities in pagan religions but none in either Judaism or Islam...the other two "Abrahamic" religions....only in Christendom...but not in Christ's teachings at all. I think I know who rewrote scripture to match their theology.
Show me one scripture where Jesus is claiming to be YHWH? Where did he say to worship him or pray to him?
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
I have not had to rewrite a thing Jesus taught. I subscribe to the same "theology" as Jesus did. He was Jewish and the Jews did not teach a trinity. The apostles did not teach a trinity either. There are lots of trinities in pagan religions but none in either Judaism or Islam...the other two "Abrahamic" religions....only in Christendom...but not in Christ's teachings at all. I think I know who rewrote scripture to match their theology.
Why don't you tell us who rewrote the Bible....
Show me one scripture where Jesus is claiming to be YHWH? Where did he say to worship him or pray to him?
Jesus is Lord, YHWH is Lord, Jesus is God, Hebrews 1:8
John 1:10
Jesus is one with the father,
Jesus is worshipped,
Matthew 2:2
Jesus is the Son of God, the Father,
Matthew 3:17
Only Jesus, reveals the Father, this means He is in the OT,
Matthew 11:17
Father, Son, and Spirit, are God.
Christendom's scholars mistranslated the Bible to support their trinity doctrine.
An example....John 1:1 (which is often used as the prime example of the trinity,) is undone in verse 18 where it says in the NASB..." No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him."
Now, we all know that God was not begotten and has always existed so the translators of the KJV decided to render that verse....
"No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." But in the Greek it clearly states "monogenes theos" (only begotten god) so by rights, if theos can be translated "Son" in verse 18, it should rightly be translated "Son" in verse 1 as well. That would make John 1:1 say..."In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was the Son".
Taking liberties with translation when there is no reason to do so other than to make God's word say what it doesn't, is a serious breach of trust IMO. One that will not go unpunished IMO.
Hebrews 1:8:
RS reads: “Of the Son he says, ‘Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever.’” (KJ, NE, TEV, Dy, JB, NAB have similar renderings.) However, NW reads: “But with reference to the Son: ‘God is your throne forever and ever.’” (AT, Mo, TC, By convey the same idea.)
Which rendering is harmonious with the context? The preceding verses say that God is speaking, not that he is being addressed; and the following verse uses the expression “God, thy God,” showing that the one addressed is not the Most High God but is a worshiper of that God. Hebrews 1:8 quotes from Psalm 45:6, which originally was addressed to a human king of Israel. Obviously, the Bible writer of this psalm did not think that this human king was Almighty God. Rather, Psalm 45:6, in RS, reads “Your divine throne.” (NE says, “Your throne is like God’s throne.” JP [verse 7]: “Thy throne given of God.”)
Solomon, who was possibly the king originally addressed in Psalm 45, was said to sit “upon Jehovah’s throne.” (1 Chronicles. 29:23, NW) In harmony with the fact that God is the “throne,” or Source and Upholder of Christ’s kingship, Daniel 7:13, 14 and Luke 1:32 show that God confers such authority on him.
I already explained this one.
" He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him."
Colossians 1:13-17 explains that the son was used by his Father in creating all things. But as the "firstborn of all creation" he was the very first creation of his Father. The "beginning" of his creative works. (Revelation 3:14)
No he isn't. The magi did not "worship" the child Jesus. They came to offer gifts to a new "King of the Jews".
The Greek pro·sky·neʹo corresponds closely to the Hebrew hish·ta·chawahʹ as to conveying the thought of both obeisance to creatures and worship to God or a deity. The manner of expressing the obeisance is perhaps not so prominent in pro·sky·neʹo as in hish·ta·chawahʹ, where the Hebrew term graphically conveys the thought of prostration or bowing down. Scholars derive the Greek term from the verb ky·neʹo, “kiss.” The usage of the word in the Christian Greek Scriptures (as also in the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures) shows that persons to whose actions the term is applied prostrated themselves or bowed down. (Matthew 2:11; 18:26; 28:9.
Really?
"And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
How is God voicing his approval of his son, in taking on the role of Messiah somehow implying that "Jesus is the Son of God, the Father"? That is nonsense.
Only Jehovah revealed the son."Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Who are people coming to?...."the Father", not to Jesus.
What about John 10:30:
When saying, “I and the Father are one,” did Jesus mean that they were equal? Some Trinitarians say that he did. But at John 17:21, 22, Jesus prayed regarding his followers: “That they may all be one,” and he added, “that they may be one even as we are one.” He used the same Greek word (hen) for “one” in all these instances. Obviously, Jesus’ disciples do not all become part of the Trinity. But they do come to share a oneness of purpose with the Father and the Son, the same sort of oneness that unites God and Christ.
The only way to find a trinity in the Bible is to misinterpret scripture.
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Yeshua called his father EL:
Matthew 27:46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lima sabachthani?” That is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
Gabriel called his father EL:
Luke 1:32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High (El Elyon). The Lord God will give him the throne of his father, David,
In my opinion.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Relates is a trinitarian word.
To take the language hebrew etc out
There is one creator
One savior
One spirit
The creator is not a savior
The spirit came from the creator
The savior is an incarnation of the creators dictations of a prophet in OT.
There is divinity in all three: that is the trinity (relationship between three people/things/ideas)
Has nothing to do with whats hebrew.
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Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
The creator of the old testement is worshiped by christians. Where did you get that they didnt? I never read that in scripture not experienced that in church. All worshiped the creater through the savior by the creator's spirit.
Yes. We experience that too. Through the savior.
Yes. Followers the savior (christians) worship the creator through the savior.
Unless you dont believe the savior is an intermediary to the creator, why do you believe in a savior (unless an image is unrelated to its source)?
If you do believe in the creater, do you believe the creator has an image of the itself?
I took out the hebrew because language issues doesnt define creator, savior, and spirit. We use language to communicate messages and ideas. What we communicate, the language we use, isnt whats behind the message and content itself. It just a tool to relay message regardless the language.
Unless you believe there is no creator, savior, and that the creator has no spirit, I dont understand what you saying.
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Still Abba means Father, Yahweh was the Father, Jesus was the Son, and Jesus talked to him, right?
TrueBeliever37
Well-Known Member
Why would God have to do that? Since angels are superior to humans in power and ability, what makes you think that The Almighty would need to become a mere human to set things right? What Kings have servants, and then do the servants' jobs themselves?
What does John say about who was manifested in the flesh?
John 1:14..." And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."
So John 1:1 is rendered..."In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
Since there was no capitals in Greek this verse has to be read according to Greek understanding.
From the Interlinear....
In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros · ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos."
So from John 1:1 we see that "the Word" was "with THE God" (ho theos) and that he was a god ("theos"), which in Greek means 'a divine mighty one'. There is then a distinction between THE Divine Mighty one" and "a divine mighty one".
Since the Greeks were polytheists, there was no word in their language that meant just one supreme god. All their gods had names and collectively were simply known as "the gods". When the Greek scriptures spoke of the "one God" of Israel, the Jews had stopped using his name, therefore the only way to distinguish him was to use the definite article (THE) as we would in distinguishing a person with the same name as a celebrity....if there was a guy named Brad Pitt e.g. we would say not "THE Brad Pitt".
Notice the word "ho" (meaning THE) and see that the first mention of God is "ho theos" but the second one has no definite article....this indicates that "the Word was with THE God" but the Word was a 'divine mighty one'...not THE God. So, it was the Word who became flesh...not THE God.
Jesus is called God's servant in the scriptures...so how can one equal part of God be a servant to another part of himself? That is nonsense!
THE God (YHWH) is immortal and cannot die, but Jesus was 100% mortal human and offered his life in exchange for what Adam had left as an inheritance for his children. All that was needed to redeem mankind was an equivalent life. Jesus volunteered to do the job. His Father resurrected him from the dead.
I am going to try to come back to this and reply more when I have a little more time.
But for now, why is it you didn't answer my question? The NT says that the Messiah created things. I quoted a verse in Isaiah 44:24 where YHWH said he created things and was alone, and by himself. I am still waiting for you to explain.
TrueBeliever37
Well-Known Member
The NT says that every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess that the Messiah is YHWH. Philippians 2:11
The flesh was weak and cried out to the eternal Spirit for strength. YHWH was dwelling in that fleshly body, but the flesh itself was weak and needed the strength of the eternal Spirit to overcome.
If you think it is another person that is God - my question for you is, if he is God why did he need to pray to begin with?
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Yahweh get's translated as Lord, as do other variants, you will also have to study this without much explanation, because the interpretations of what the Hebrew words mean, usually aren't in a Christian context.
Also, YHWH, could be interpreted from other words, that may or may not indicate that it specifically refers to Yahweh, hence, you can miss an inference to Jesus, that might be more apparent, when reading the English.
/Christian bible also contains Aramaic, and is read from a certain religious or theological perspective.
In other words, it 's very impractical, this thread demonstrates that pretty well, it seems.
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Deeje said : “The "Lord your God" in English is יְהֹוָ֧ה (YHWH) in Hebrew”
This is incorrect. You are mixing the name (yhwh) of God with one of the titles (Adon) of God. “Lord” is not the name.
The word “Lord” is typically rendered אָדוֹן (Adon) in Hebrew. The shema, when recited in modern times uses Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad (The LORD is our God, the LORD is one) rather than using Yaweh (which is the word used in Masoretic Deuteronomy). The older Hebrew translation into Greek (the Septuagint) specifically uses the word for LORD (κυριος ο θεοσ).
In multiple greek manuscripts, luke reads, “υπαγε οπισω μου σατανα” [i.e. YOU (Satan) go under/behind/follow ME (Jesus)]
When Jesus is speaking to Satan who demands Jesus worship him, Jesus says “you go under or behind ME satan”. The reason Jesus gives is that all are to worship the Lord [their God]. In this context, IF Jesus is instructing Satan, that he (Satan) is less honored than himself (Jesus) and Jesus is using the shema (Deut 6:4) as the reason Satan (and all others) are less honored than Jesus himself, then Jesus is applying the shema to himself, and not to another God.
Thus, in the context of Jesus as Jehovah, then Jesus is correctly pointing out that Jehovah (Jesus himself) does not serve satan, but satan should follow and serve him (Jesus "the Lord") .
My point was not to say your version of the scripture is incorrect, merely that it is not the oldest version nor is your modern, personal interpretation necessarily the oldest and most correct interpretation of this specific scripture. The early Judeo-Christians also had their versions of scriptures and their own interpretations that are equally valid to yours. It is context which is the basis for interpretation and meaning.
In any case, whether the older traditions or the more modern traditions are correct, I hope your spiritual journey is good Deeje.
Clear
φιακσιω
This is incorrect. You are mixing the name (yhwh) of God with one of the titles (Adon) of God. “Lord” is not the name.
The word “Lord” is typically rendered אָדוֹן (Adon) in Hebrew. The shema, when recited in modern times uses Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad (The LORD is our God, the LORD is one) rather than using Yaweh (which is the word used in Masoretic Deuteronomy). The older Hebrew translation into Greek (the Septuagint) specifically uses the word for LORD (κυριος ο θεοσ).
In multiple greek manuscripts, luke reads, “υπαγε οπισω μου σατανα” [i.e. YOU (Satan) go under/behind/follow ME (Jesus)]
When Jesus is speaking to Satan who demands Jesus worship him, Jesus says “you go under or behind ME satan”. The reason Jesus gives is that all are to worship the Lord [their God]. In this context, IF Jesus is instructing Satan, that he (Satan) is less honored than himself (Jesus) and Jesus is using the shema (Deut 6:4) as the reason Satan (and all others) are less honored than Jesus himself, then Jesus is applying the shema to himself, and not to another God.
Thus, in the context of Jesus as Jehovah, then Jesus is correctly pointing out that Jehovah (Jesus himself) does not serve satan, but satan should follow and serve him (Jesus "the Lord") .
My point was not to say your version of the scripture is incorrect, merely that it is not the oldest version nor is your modern, personal interpretation necessarily the oldest and most correct interpretation of this specific scripture. The early Judeo-Christians also had their versions of scriptures and their own interpretations that are equally valid to yours. It is context which is the basis for interpretation and meaning.
In any case, whether the older traditions or the more modern traditions are correct, I hope your spiritual journey is good Deeje.
Clear
φιακσιω
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The most powerful entity in the Universe, who has no equal, did not need to become the equivalent of an amoeba to save mankind. He sent his son, as his most trusted representative to buy back what Adam lost, so that his purpose for this earth could go ahead without any abuse of free will getting in the way, ever again.
In Genesis Jehovah is speaking to the one who was used as the agent of creation...his beloved son.
The apostle Paul wrote of Jesus...."He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist." (Colossians 1:15-17)
Jehovah is the Creator and Jesus (in his pre-human state) used the raw materials that his Father brought into existence, to fashion all things in heaven, in the universe and on earth. (Proverbs 8:30-3; John 1:2-4)
It is like accrediting the architect for a building, even though he never directly laid a hand on the building itself but made sure that the builder had the plans and all the materials needed to construct his building. The building was the work of the architect, who designed and engineered everything in it. The one who put the materials together is not the one who thought it up and drafted out the plans.
Alright, thanks you two. My translation of Philipians 2:11 said "11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Even if that does mean Jesus is YHWH, or the Messiah, it may mean one in purpose. Your second quote is one in purpose too. He needed to pray because he was not one in purpose yet. That event symbolized becoming so.
Thank you.
david-david
Member
JHVH..YHWH
Hebrew has no letter 'J'. 'V' is arguable but more so W than V.
Hebrew has no letter 'J'. 'V' is arguable but more so W than V.
I have to agree with Deeje on the specific point that it is the Son/Messiah who was the actual creator of the earth/planets/etc. in early christian literature and he acted under the authority and direction of the Father in accomplishing this specific portion of God the Fathers' plan for mankind. Good historical point Deeje.
Clear
φυφισιω
TrueBeliever37
Well-Known Member
The problem is, you are disagreeing with YHWH. Isaiah 44:24 YHWH said that he maketh all things, and that he stretched forth the heavens alone, and spreadeth abroad the earth by himself.
The reason the NT has verses showing that the one called the Messiah had created everything, is because he was YHWH manifest in the flesh. It was YHWH dwelling in that body.
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TrueBeliever37
Well-Known Member
Sorry but it would mean what it says. It didn't say they would confess he was one in purpose. It said they will confess he is YHWH.
Please explain a little better, why you are saying he had to pray to begin with, since you believe he is another person of the Godhead.
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TrueBeliever37
Well-Known Member
He was the image of the invisible God, because that was the body that YHWH took on, in order to have flesh and blood to shed for man's sins.
The scripture says he was made of a woman, and made under the law. He couldn't exist before he was made, could he?
Yes, he was the firstborn of every creature - the firstborn from the dead, as Colossians 1:18 explains.
It was YHWH dwelling in that body, that is why he said things like, I and my Father are one, and if you have seen me you have seen the Father, and now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. He said the Father that dwelleth in me, he does the works. The flesh was called the son, and the eternal Spirit dwelling in the flesh was the Father. It was just like the prophecy in Isaiah 9:6 had said, the son that would be born, would also be the mighty God, and the everlasting Father.
He also said, destroy this temple, (speaking of his body) and in 3 days I will raise it up. Who did the Messiah just say would raise it up? Doesn't the scripture say God raised it up?
Isaiah 40:3 talks about a voice in the wilderness crying Prepare ye the way of YHWH, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. When you get to the NT - who does that voice turn out to be? Mark 1:2-3 It's John the baptist, right? Well who did John prepare the way for, and who showed up? It was the Messiah, right? But Isaiah says it was YHWH he prepared the way for.
Philippians 2:10-11 says that every knee will bow, and every tongue confess that the Messiah is YHWH.
Please - Don't just brush over this real quickly, actually read it, and consider the points made. There are so many more proofs in the scriptures. But I don't want this to be too long.
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