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Do You believe that Moses actually existed?

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Peace said:
The Quran has never changed or corrupted, the Quran that we read today is the same that was revealed more than 14 centuries ago with no additions nor diminution, ...
This silly mantra is as worthless as it is baseless. See, for example, THE COLLECTION OF THE QURAN which concludes as follows:
All this proves beyond any doubt that the very accusation levelled by Muslims against the Bible, can be reversed and applied far more effectively against the Quran. When a Muslim refers to the Quran as "nazil" he is flying in the teeth of the facts recorded above. Therefore, considering the absence of external and internal evidence that should effectively verify the revelatory character of the Quran, we find it very hard, if not impossible, to accept the Quran as a Message sent by God. This is particularly so, because the Quran contradicts earlier revelation, the evidence for the origin of which is given above.​
See, also, Textual Variants of the Qur'an.

Particularly interesting is the article What is the Quran wherein you'll find ...
Soon after the project began, it became clear that the hoard was a fabulous example of what is sometimes referred to as a "paper grave" -- in this case the resting place for, among other things, tens of thousands of fragments from close to a thousand different parchment codices of the Koran, the Muslim holy scripture. In some pious Muslim circles it is held that worn-out or damaged copies of the Koran must be removed from circulation; hence the idea of a grave, which both preserves the sanctity of the texts being laid to rest and ensures that only complete and unblemished editions of the scripture will be read.

Some of the parchment pages in the Yemeni hoard seemed to date back to the seventh and eighth centuries A.D., or Islam's first two centuries -- they were fragments, in other words, of perhaps the oldest Korans in existence. What's more, some of these fragments revealed small but intriguing aberrations from the standard Koranic text. Such aberrations, though not surprising to textual historians, are troublingly at odds with the orthodox Muslim belief that the Koran as it has reached us today is quite simply the perfect, timeless, and unchanging Word of God.

< -- snip -- >​

To date just two scholars have been granted extensive access to the Yemeni fragments: Puin and his colleague H.-C. Graf von Bothmer, an Islamic-art historian also based at Saarland University. Puin and Von Bothmer have published only a few tantalizingly brief articles in scholarly publications on what they have discovered in the Yemeni fragments. They have been reluctant to publish partly because until recently they were more concerned with sorting and classifying the fragments than with systematically examining them, and partly because they felt that the Yemeni authorities, if they realized the possible implications of the discovery, might refuse them further access. Von Bothmer, however, in 1997 finished taking more than 35,000 microfilm pictures of the fragments, and has recently brought the pictures back to Germany. This means that soon Von Bothmer, Puin, and other scholars will finally have a chance to scrutinize the texts and to publish their findings freely -- a prospect that thrills Puin. "So many Muslims have this belief that everything between the two covers of the Koran is just God's unaltered word," he says. "They like to quote the textual work that shows that the Bible has a history and did not fall straight out of the sky, but until now the Koran has been out of this discussion. The only way to break through this wall is to prove that the Koran has a history too. The Sana'a fragments will help us to do this."

Puin is not alone in his enthusiasm. "The impact of the Yemeni manuscripts is still to be felt," says Andrew Rippin, a professor of religious studies at the University of Calgary, who is at the forefront of Koranic studies today. "Their variant readings and verse orders are all very significant. Everybody agrees on that. These manuscripts say that the early history of the Koranic text is much more of an open question than many have suspected: the text was less stable, and therefore had less authority, than has always been claimed."

< -- snip -- >​

GERD-R. Puin speaks with disdain about the traditional willingness, on the part of Muslim and Western scholars, to accept the conventional understanding of the Koran. "The Koran claims for itself that it is 'mubeen,' or 'clear,'" he says. "But if you look at it, you will notice that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn't make sense. Many Muslims -- and Orientalists -- will tell you otherwise, of course, but the fact is that a fifth of the Koranic text is just incomprehensible. This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Koran is not comprehensible -- if it can't even be understood in Arabic -- then it's not translatable. People fear that. And since the Koran claims repeatedly to be clear but obviously is not -- as even speakers of Arabic will tell you -- there is a contradiction. Something else must be going on."

Trying to figure out that "something else" really began only in this century. "Until quite recently," Patricia Crone, the historian of early Islam, says, "everyone took it for granted that everything the Muslims claim to remember about the origin and meaning of the Koran is correct. If you drop that assumption, you have to start afresh." This is no mean feat, of course; the Koran has come down to us tightly swathed in a historical tradition that is extremely resistant to criticism and analysis. As Crone put it in Slaves on Horses,
The Biblical redactors offer us sections of the Israelite tradition at different stages of crystallization, and their testimonies can accordingly be profitably compared and weighed against each other. But the Muslim tradition was the outcome, not of a slow crystallization, but of an explosion; the first compilers were not redactors, but collectors of debris whose works are strikingly devoid of overall unity; and no particular illuminations ensue from their comparison.​
Read the article in its entiriety.
 

Bishadi

Active Member
Moses did live!

and Jawhawk ..... did you come up with that summary of understanding based on your thorough examination of data or is that an opinion you feel fits.



Peace ..........To correct your information Bishadi, by the death of Prophet Muahmmad peace be upon him the revelation stopped. The Quran was revealed through 23 years, which is the period of Prophet Muhammad prophethood.

The Quran has never changed or corrupted, the Quran that we read today is the same that was revealed more than 14 centuries ago with no additions nor diminution, it is protected by God the Almighty for eternity.
The interpretation of the Quran which can differ among scholars




O16.101-103 ---- Kind sir, this tells us man wrote the Qur’an as well, because Allah never made a mistake.



002.128-139 -- This shares that the laws of Abraham are in fact the same laws given to Mohammed and it is true we are all of the same father Abraham in either branch of Ishmael or Isaac. Brothers in any sense; Jew and Muslim.



Islam is not a name, it is a description meaning one's "Total Submission to God Alone". To follow the religion of "Submission", the original religion of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, David, Solomon, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed (Quran : 2:112,128,136; 4:125; 10:72; 22:34; 29:46; 22:78; 30:31; 42:13). "Submission" is the only religion accepted by God (3:19) and to truly define “Submission” would be to acknowledge a brotherhood of all human beings.



Unfortunately what many Muslims follow today has nothing to do with "Submission" preached by Abraham and Mohammad. They are following a religion other than by God : They divided the religion of "Submission" in to so many different sects, such as, Shi'a, Sunny, Ismaili, Hanbaly, Bahaii, and .... they follow two books, written by man, "Hadeeth" (what Mohammad said), and "Sunna" (what Mohammad did), instead of following the Quran.



A similar pattern occurred in Judaism and Christianity. Which is even professed and acknowledged but given a divine “excuse” “oops, it is best we change our mind” …



002.106
YUSUFALI: None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?




Then a contradiction



002.108
YUSUFALI: Would ye question your Messenger as Moses was questioned of old? but whoever changeth from Faith to Unbelief, Hath strayed without doubt from the even way.




002.083
YUSUFALI: And remember We took a covenant from the Children of Israel (to this effect): Worship none but Allah; treat with kindness your parents and kindred, and orphans and those in need; speak fair to the people; be steadfast in prayer; and practise regular charity. Then did ye turn back, except a few among you, and ye backslide (even now).






The oldest Qur’an == 750 AD



Mohammed Died === 623 AD



Mohammed never saw the Qur’an or read anything, he had no idea how he was being depicted as many of Islam suggest. Islam is "submission to God" not Mohammed!



Try reading this last one 002.078 …. Ignorance is not an excuse.
 
I submit my vote for a brotherhood of all mankind, white, black, man, woman, Christian, Islam. We all work for the same boss. Once we realize that, imagine how our company could prosper. Choose God as your CEO, and reap the benefits.
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
Bishadi said:
Unfortunately what many Muslims follow today has nothing to do with "Submission" preached by Abraham and Mohammad. They are following a religion other than by God : They divided the religion of "Submission" in to so many different sects, such as, Shi'a, Sunny, Ismaili, Hanbaly, Bahaii, and .... they follow two books, written by man, "Hadeeth" (what Mohammad said), and "Sunna" (what Mohammad did), instead of following the Quran. .
The Baha`i Faith is no more "Islamic" than the Christian faith is "Judaic". Granted, CXhristianity arose in a Judaic environment and thus has Judaic roots, but they are independent faiths. So, too, did the Baha`i faith arise in a Muslim environment, but they are still independent faiths. This was ruled on by a Shar'ia court in Egypt about 1890 and they found that the Baha`i faith is independent - even though the faith is currently illegal in Egypt.

Regards,
Scott
 

Bishadi

Active Member
Popeyesays said:
The Baha`i Faith is no more "Islamic" than the Christian faith is "Judaic". Granted, CXhristianity arose in a Judaic environment and thus has Judaic roots, but they are independent faiths. So, too, did the Baha`i faith arise in a Muslim environment, but they are still independent faiths. This was ruled on by a Shar'ia court in Egypt about 1890 and they found that the Baha`i faith is independent - even though the faith is currently illegal in Egypt.
I had a feeling that was coming after I posted it is, Sorry for the grouping like that, I did not mean to offend. I hope you understand I did not mean to be rude or insult any one just offering a point of view many may not know.

:)
 

Nehustan

Well-Known Member
I have been asked to answer to this thread, had a brief look through, saw the 'Satanic verses' reference, read this...read that, pretty much all the same old arguments rehashed pro and contra. I think my opinion on this considering historicity from 2006, and with a book that as far as I can tell was revealed by an intelligence (read angel) beyond that of an illiterate tradesman, I tend to see no reason to disbelieve that Moses existed. Not so much a 'why' I believe as a 'why not?'.
 

Judgement Day

Active Member
Bishadi,

We are talking about Moses here, you may make another thread if you want to talk about the Quran.

Jayhawker Soule,

The site you are referring to is unreliable. It is a anti islamic site. It is wise to gather all information you can get.

The Noble Quran

The Qur'an ("Qor-Ann") is a Message from Allah to humanity. It was transmitted to us in a chain starting from the Almighty Himself (swt) to the angel Gabriel to the Prophet Muhammad (saas). This message was given to the Prophet (saas) in pieces over a period spanning approximately 23 years (610 CE to 622 CE). The Prophet (saas) was 40 years old when the Qur'an began to be revealed to him, and he was 63 when the revelation was completed. The language of the original message was Arabic, but it has been translated into many other languages.

The Qur'an is one leg of two which form the basis of Islam. The second leg is the Sunnah of the Prophet (saas). What makes the Qur'an different from the Sunnah is primarily its form. Unlike the Sunnah, the Qur'an is quite literally the Word of Allah, whereas the Sunnah was inspired by Allah but the wording and actions are the Prophet's. The Qur'an has not been expressed using any human's words. Its wording is letter for letter fixed by no one but Allah.

Prophet Muhammad (saas) was the final Messenger of Allah to humanity, and therefore the Qur'an is the last Message which Allah has sent to us. Its predecessors such as the Torah, Psalms, and Gospels have all been superceded. It is an obligation - and blessing - for all who hear of the Qur'an and Islam to investigate it and evaluate it for themselves. Allah has guaranteed that He will protect the Qur'an from human tampering, and today's readers can find exact copies of it all over the world. The Qur'an of today is the same as the Qur'an revealed to Muhammad (saas).


Brief History of Compilation of the Quran

During the life of the Prophet (saas) (570-632 CE)



  • The Prophet (saas) used to recite the Qur'an before angel Jibreel (Gabriel) once every Ramadan, but he recited it twice (in the same order we have today) in the last Ramadan before his death. Jibreel also taught the Prophet (saas) the seven modes of recitation.
  • Each verse received was recited by the Prophet, and its location relative to other verses and surahs was identified by him.
  • The verses were written by scribes, selected by the Prophet, on any suitable object - the leaves of trees, pieces of wood, parchment or leather, flat stones, and shoulder blades. Scribes included Ali Ibn Abi Talib, Mu'awiyah Ibn Abi Sufyan, Ubey Ibn Ka'ab, Zayed Ibn Thabit.
  • Some of the companions wrote the Qur'an for their own use.
  • Several hundred companions memorized the Qur'an by heart.
During the caliphate of Abu Bakr (632-634 CE)


  • Umar Ibn Al-Khattab urged Abu Bakr to preserve and compile the Qur'an. This was prompted after the battle of Yamamah, where heavy casualties were suffered among the reciters who memorized the Qur'an.
  • Abu Bakr entrusted Zayed Ibn Thabit with the task of collecting the Qur'an. Zayed had been present during the last recitation of the Qur'an by the Prophet to Angel Jibreel (Gabriel).
  • Zayed, with the help of the companions who memorized and wrote verses of the Qur'an, accomplished the task and handed Abu Bakr the first authenticated copy of the Qur'an. The copy was kept in the residence of Hafsah, daughter of Umar and wife of the Prophet.
During the caliphate of Uthman (644-656 CE)


  • Uthman ordered Zayed Ibn Thabit, Abdullah Ibn Al Zubayr, Saeed Ibn Al-Aas, and Abdur-Rahman Ibn Harith Ibn Hisham to make perfect copies of the authenticated copy kept with Hafsa. This was due to the rapid expansion of the Islamic state and concern about differences in recitation.
  • Copies were sent to various places in the Muslim world. The original copy was returned to Hafsa, and a copy was kept in Madinah.
During the caliphate of Uthman (644-656 CE)


  • Uthman ordered Zayed Ibn Thabit, Abdullah Ibn Al Zubayr, Saeed Ibn Al-Aas, and Abdur-Rahman Ibn Harith Ibn Hisham to make perfect copies of the authenticated copy kept with Hafsa. This was due to the rapid expansion of the Islamic state and concern about differences in recitation.
  • Copies were sent to various places in the Muslim world. The original copy was returned to Hafsa, and a copy was kept in Madinah.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Jayhawker Soule said:
If he preached the historicity of the Biblical Exodus/Conquest narrative, he was speaking out of ignorance.
Sorry to disappoint you but he wasn't talking about the bible. Read the history before you spread your *knowlege* among us dear.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Judgement Day said:
Bishadi,

We are talking about Moses here, you may make another thread if you want to talk about the Quran.

Jayhawker Soule,

The site you are referring to is unreliable. It is a anti islamic site. It is wise to gather all information you can get.

The Noble Quran

The Qur'an ("Qor-Ann") is a Message from Allah to humanity. It was transmitted to us in a chain starting from the Almighty Himself (swt) to the angel Gabriel to the Prophet Muhammad (saas). This message was given to the Prophet (saas) in pieces over a period spanning approximately 23 years (610 CE to 622 CE). The Prophet (saas) was 40 years old when the Qur'an began to be revealed to him, and he was 63 when the revelation was completed. The language of the original message was Arabic, but it has been translated into many other languages.

The Qur'an is one leg of two which form the basis of Islam. The second leg is the Sunnah of the Prophet (saas). What makes the Qur'an different from the Sunnah is primarily its form. Unlike the Sunnah, the Qur'an is quite literally the Word of Allah, whereas the Sunnah was inspired by Allah but the wording and actions are the Prophet's. The Qur'an has not been expressed using any human's words. Its wording is letter for letter fixed by no one but Allah.

Prophet Muhammad (saas) was the final Messenger of Allah to humanity, and therefore the Qur'an is the last Message which Allah has sent to us. Its predecessors such as the Torah, Psalms, and Gospels have all been superceded. It is an obligation - and blessing - for all who hear of the Qur'an and Islam to investigate it and evaluate it for themselves. Allah has guaranteed that He will protect the Qur'an from human tampering, and today's readers can find exact copies of it all over the world. The Qur'an of today is the same as the Qur'an revealed to Muhammad (saas).


Brief History of Compilation of the Quran

During the life of the Prophet (saas) (570-632 CE)


  • The Prophet (saas) used to recite the Qur'an before angel Jibreel (Gabriel) once every Ramadan, but he recited it twice (in the same order we have today) in the last Ramadan before his death. Jibreel also taught the Prophet (saas) the seven modes of recitation.
  • Each verse received was recited by the Prophet, and its location relative to other verses and surahs was identified by him.
  • The verses were written by scribes, selected by the Prophet, on any suitable object - the leaves of trees, pieces of wood, parchment or leather, flat stones, and shoulder blades. Scribes included Ali Ibn Abi Talib, Mu'awiyah Ibn Abi Sufyan, Ubey Ibn Ka'ab, Zayed Ibn Thabit.
  • Some of the companions wrote the Qur'an for their own use.
  • Several hundred companions memorized the Qur'an by heart.
During the caliphate of Abu Bakr (632-634 CE)


  • Umar Ibn Al-Khattab urged Abu Bakr to preserve and compile the Qur'an. This was prompted after the battle of Yamamah, where heavy casualties were suffered among the reciters who memorized the Qur'an.
  • Abu Bakr entrusted Zayed Ibn Thabit with the task of collecting the Qur'an. Zayed had been present during the last recitation of the Qur'an by the Prophet to Angel Jibreel (Gabriel).
  • Zayed, with the help of the companions who memorized and wrote verses of the Qur'an, accomplished the task and handed Abu Bakr the first authenticated copy of the Qur'an. The copy was kept in the residence of Hafsah, daughter of Umar and wife of the Prophet.
During the caliphate of Uthman (644-656 CE)


  • Uthman ordered Zayed Ibn Thabit, Abdullah Ibn Al Zubayr, Saeed Ibn Al-Aas, and Abdur-Rahman Ibn Harith Ibn Hisham to make perfect copies of the authenticated copy kept with Hafsa. This was due to the rapid expansion of the Islamic state and concern about differences in recitation.
  • Copies were sent to various places in the Muslim world. The original copy was returned to Hafsa, and a copy was kept in Madinah.
During the caliphate of Uthman (644-656 CE)


  • Uthman ordered Zayed Ibn Thabit, Abdullah Ibn Al Zubayr, Saeed Ibn Al-Aas, and Abdur-Rahman Ibn Harith Ibn Hisham to make perfect copies of the authenticated copy kept with Hafsa. This was due to the rapid expansion of the Islamic state and concern about differences in recitation.
  • Copies were sent to various places in the Muslim world. The original copy was returned to Hafsa, and a copy was kept in Madinah.

Well said brother JD. :)
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
post #41 - Peace
Yes, I believe 100% that Prophet Moses peace be upon him existed, for Allah told us so.​
post #43 - Jayhawker Soule
When did he do that?​
post #51 - Peace
More than 14 centuries ago in His Holy book Quran revealed to Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him.​
post #52 - Jayhawker Soule
Your Prophet was ignorant.​
post #53 - Peace
My Prophet, the prophet sent to all human kind, was illiterate, but with the divine revelation he became the most brilliant knowlegeable man.​
post #55 - Jayhawker Soule
If he preached the historicity of the Biblical Exodus/Conquest narrative, he was speaking out of ignorance.​
post #69 - The Truth
Sorry to disappoint you but he wasn't talking about the bible. Read the history before you spread your *knowlege* among us dear.​
That was a really stupid thing to say.
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
beckysoup61 said:
Do you believe Moses actually existed? Why or why not?
Greetings!

I agree with Popeye: not only did Jesus and Muhammad stipulate that Moses existed, but the Baha'i scriptures (which I endeavor to follow) assert that He did, so I have no reason whatever to doubt this!

Peace,

Bruce
 

Peace

Quran & Sunnah
Jayhawker Soule said:
This silly mantra is as worthless as it is baseless. See, for example, THE COLLECTION OF THE QURAN which concludes as follows:
All this proves beyond any doubt that the very accusation levelled by Muslims against the Bible, can be reversed and applied far more effectively against the Quran. When a Muslim refers to the Quran as "nazil" he is flying in the teeth of the facts recorded above. Therefore, considering the absence of external and internal evidence that should effectively verify the revelatory character of the Quran, we find it very hard, if not impossible, to accept the Quran as a Message sent by God. This is particularly so, because the Quran contradicts earlier revelation, the evidence for the origin of which is given above.​
See, also, Textual Variants of the Qur'an.




Particularly interesting is the article What is the Quran wherein you'll find ...
Soon after the project began, it became clear that the hoard was a fabulous example of what is sometimes referred to as a "paper grave" -- in this case the resting place for, among other things, tens of thousands of fragments from close to a thousand different parchment codices of the Koran, the Muslim holy scripture. In some pious Muslim circles it is held that worn-out or damaged copies of the Koran must be removed from circulation; hence the idea of a grave, which both preserves the sanctity of the texts being laid to rest and ensures that only complete and unblemished editions of the scripture will be read.


Some of the parchment pages in the Yemeni hoard seemed to date back to the seventh and eighth centuries A.D., or Islam's first two centuries -- they were fragments, in other words, of perhaps the oldest Korans in existence. What's more, some of these fragments revealed small but intriguing aberrations from the standard Koranic text. Such aberrations, though not surprising to textual historians, are troublingly at odds with the orthodox Muslim belief that the Koran as it has reached us today is quite simply the perfect, timeless, and unchanging Word of God.

< -- snip -- >​

To date just two scholars have been granted extensive access to the Yemeni fragments: Puin and his colleague H.-C. Graf von Bothmer, an Islamic-art historian also based at Saarland University. Puin and Von Bothmer have published only a few tantalizingly brief articles in scholarly publications on what they have discovered in the Yemeni fragments. They have been reluctant to publish partly because until recently they were more concerned with sorting and classifying the fragments than with systematically examining them, and partly because they felt that the Yemeni authorities, if they realized the possible implications of the discovery, might refuse them further access. Von Bothmer, however, in 1997 finished taking more than 35,000 microfilm pictures of the fragments, and has recently brought the pictures back to Germany. This means that soon Von Bothmer, Puin, and other scholars will finally have a chance to scrutinize the texts and to publish their findings freely -- a prospect that thrills Puin. "So many Muslims have this belief that everything between the two covers of the Koran is just God's unaltered word," he says. "They like to quote the textual work that shows that the Bible has a history and did not fall straight out of the sky, but until now the Koran has been out of this discussion. The only way to break through this wall is to prove that the Koran has a history too. The Sana'a fragments will help us to do this."

Puin is not alone in his enthusiasm. "The impact of the Yemeni manuscripts is still to be felt," says Andrew Rippin, a professor of religious studies at the University of Calgary, who is at the forefront of Koranic studies today. "Their variant readings and verse orders are all very significant. Everybody agrees on that. These manuscripts say that the early history of the Koranic text is much more of an open question than many have suspected: the text was less stable, and therefore had less authority, than has always been claimed."

< -- snip -- >​

GERD-R. Puin speaks with disdain about the traditional willingness, on the part of Muslim and Western scholars, to accept the conventional understanding of the Koran. "The Koran claims for itself that it is 'mubeen,' or 'clear,'" he says. "But if you look at it, you will notice that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn't make sense. Many Muslims -- and Orientalists -- will tell you otherwise, of course, but the fact is that a fifth of the Koranic text is just incomprehensible. This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Koran is not comprehensible -- if it can't even be understood in Arabic -- then it's not translatable. People fear that. And since the Koran claims repeatedly to be clear but obviously is not -- as even speakers of Arabic will tell you -- there is a contradiction. Something else must be going on."



Trying to figure out that "something else" really began only in this century. "Until quite recently," Patricia Crone, the historian of early Islam, says, "everyone took it for granted that everything the Muslims claim to remember about the origin and meaning of the Koran is correct. If you drop that assumption, you have to start afresh." This is no mean feat, of course; the Koran has come down to us tightly swathed in a historical tradition that is extremely resistant to criticism and analysis. As Crone put it in Slaves on Horses,
The Biblical redactors offer us sections of the Israelite tradition at different stages of crystallization, and their testimonies can accordingly be profitably compared and weighed against each other. But the Muslim tradition was the outcome, not of a slow crystallization, but of an explosion; the first compilers were not redactors, but collectors of debris whose works are strikingly devoid of overall unity; and no particular illuminations ensue from their comparison.​
Read the article in its entiriety.
:biglaugh:
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
Peace said:
:biglaugh:
What's so funny? I've heard a lot of this stuff before and it sounds perfectly reasonable to me, but then I guess that's because I don't have anything invested in the idea of a perfectly preserved text received in revelation from God. It's easy to just post like this but can you actually refute any of the claims? I'd genuinely be interested to see evidence from both sides of the debate.

James
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
JamesThePersian said:
What's so funny? I've heard a lot of this stuff before and it sounds perfectly reasonable to me, but then I guess that's because I don't have anything invested in the idea of a perfectly preserved text received in revelation from God. It's easy to just post like this but can you actually refute any of the claims? I'd genuinely be interested to see evidence from both sides of the debate.

James
Have a look at post # 68.

By the way, we are not here to debate about Quran but about Moses.

If anyone is intersted about the valdity of Quran he/she can start a new thread about it.

Peace ... :)
 

Bishadi

Active Member
The site you are referring to is unreliable. It is a anti islamic site. It is wise to gather all information you can get.


Did not refer any site? and can I assume your references are neutral? No I can't!

Bottom line is Moses did exist, was known prior to Qur'an and in the Qur'an it says follow his teachings, all other items were added by man, Not God!

"it is wise to gather all information you can get"

that is all I do, too rich to need anything else from life ..... not even Bill Gates himself is as rich as I am, ask any who know me, no care in the world other than to write, love and enjoy what has been recieved.....

If you want to discuss Islam we can open a new thread.... My position is that I Love Islam and the humility and compassion of the basis but I dispise ignorance. Either you understand what Mohammed was telling us or you believe that the additions and corruptions to written works are infallible. What say you, brother, are you growing or are you staying with faith believing "mud" was made into man?

and please believe when I say, nothing I write is to harm or to be mean but to entice brethren to learn new chapters!
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
I love these arguments that say "It's in my book, therefore my answer is right."

I don't see how they are more valid that me claiming that Jesus existed 100% because "it is just a feeling". *sigh*
 
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