Do you consider circumcision child abuse?

[Sleeppy]

I didn't say it should be banned. I said it's an absurd custom to slice up the genitals of our children, and if you were the first person to think of it, you'd obviously be prosecuted.

I understand the context. Many societies have equally absurd customs of bodily modification, many of which are even more absurd and horrific. (neck stretching, foot binding, female genital mutilation, etc.)

I don't think banning any of these customs would be effective at all. The only remedy is education and the development of critical thinking skills.

Your right; education and critical thinking should help. But we've had both of these for thousands and thousands of years. What we haven't had is the absurd amount of cultural ignorance and bigotry. The times don't excuse that.

 

[Sleeppy]

First of all, "Jihad" is meant to mean an internal war. The term was hijacked and corrupted by terrorists to mean something the Qran never said.

Second, "religious freedom" is a terrible justification for needless mutilation.

In US, killing animals for religious rituals is forbidden (oh the irony) which is limiting to the religious freedom of the people who do it, but it is still there because it is seemed as needles torture of a sentient being, which religion shouldnt be a good excuse for.

Check the definition again. Regardless of what you think it means, Jihad has been declared over and over again. And it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to invalidate the concerns of certain Jihadists because of terrorism. Otherwise, you're just making room for even more Jihad terrorism.

The same animal rights arguments can be applied just about anywhere. But, who's going to agree with them when it's time to eat? Only animal rights activists. The further people's property values are decreased and sacrificed to society, the more trouble you are asking for. But, of course creating an array of pollution sources for each day is perfectly acceptable lawfully. No one cries too loudly if they're also partaking in mass abuse -including that of generations and generations of children to come.

 

[dawny0826]

When was the last time you had to strap a baby to a table because of its discomfort from gas?

Jeff, your melodrama is killing me. Who isn't restrained during surgery? It's a protective measure. Geez.

Ah. Sounds like I may have inadvertently tapped into something. I'm not sure what to say except that a circumcision is not a C-section and I'm not a "natural Mom"... despite what ever transferred feelings you may have.

Wrong. And again, you ignore my point.

We might as well be from different planets when it comes to this topic. I'm convinced that you don't understand me and it's moot to continue with you. Have a nice day.

 

[Father Heathen]

Knives and genitals. They don't mix.

An disingenuous over-simplification. Then any sort of surgical procedure is wrong if knives and any part of the anatomy don't mix.

Honestly, I think this has very little to do with any genuine concern for infants and very much to do with cultural "squick".

 

[Father Heathen]

The only remedy is education

Yet you really haven't shown much interest in that, considering the information and data that was provided within this thread. Unless, of course, by "education" you mean handpicked tidbits that support a bias.

 

[Alceste]

Yet you really haven't shown much interest in that, considering the information and data that was provided within this thread. Unless, of course, by "education" you mean handpicked tidbits that support a bias.

I've read all the links provided in addition to reading additional studies and arguments I haven't bothered to share (since I am not convinced anybody really gives a fiddler's fart what the research shows). The balance of evidence is that whatever benefits can be credibly argued are counter-balanced by equal risks. IMO, the most rational and ethical position is, when in doubt, don't slice up your babies' genitals.

If you want to slice up your own genitals, go nuts. I have absolutely no problem with that.

 

[Father Heathen]

Just spare us the exaggerated, melodramatic language.

 

[dawny0826]

I've read all the links provided in addition to reading additional studies and arguments I haven't bothered to share (since I am not convinced anybody really gives a fiddler's fart what the research shows). The balance of evidence is that whatever benefits can be credibly argued are counter-balanced by equal risks. IMO, the most rational and ethical position is, when in doubt, don't slice up your babies' genitals.

If you want to slice up your own genitals, go nuts. I have absolutely no problem with that.

Who is in doubt, Alceste?

Clearly, those who make educated decisions are not those who doubt their decisions.

 

[sojourner]

Care consists of doing things that benefit the other. Abuse consists of doing things that seek to harm the other. Since circumcision is both an act of hygiene and an act of ritual "adoption," it is not abuse. It is care.

 

[Poisonshady313]

When was the last time you had to strap a baby to a table because of its discomfort from gas?

I have been present at several circumcisions (of the 8th day performed by a mohel variety). Never once did they strap the child to a table.

 

[Levite]

I have been present at several circumcisions (of the 8th day performed by a mohel variety). Never once did they strap the child to a table.

To be fair, I've been a number where they did strap the infant gently to a surgical board laid on the table. This was usually done when the mohel felt that the baby was particularly prone to movement, to prevent any accidents from occurring.

At my son's bris, our mohel restrained the baby's legs with surgical straps, but the sandek (more or less the baby's godfather) manually restrained the baby's arms, to prevent involuntary flailing, which is common in infants that young. The mohel used plenty of disinfectant, sterile gloves, sterile instruments, etc., and he also took time beforehand to meet the baby, sing to him, soothe him, and get him used to the mohel's touch, so he wouldn't be unduly upset.

For the record, the actual circumcision took two minutes or so, and the baby barely cried. He consistently has cried far, far worse from being cranky or having acid reflux than he ever cried at his circumcision.

Every bris I've ever been to, the mohel has been gentle, professional, kind, and quick; and the only bris I've ever been to where the baby really howled a lot was at a synagogue where the A/C was broken and it was cold in the sanctuary where the ritual took place, and the baby cried when they unwrapped him from his blanket.

 

[Alceste]

Who is in doubt, Alceste?

Clearly, those who make educated decisions are not those who doubt their decisions.

If you think there is no doubt, based on the available evidence, you are obviously not educated.

 

[Alceste]

To be fair, I've been a number where they did strap the infant gently to a surgical board laid on the table. This was usually done when the mohel felt that the baby was particularly prone to movement, to prevent any accidents from occurring.

At my son's bris, our mohel restrained the baby's legs with surgical straps, but the sandek (more or less the baby's godfather) manually restrained the baby's arms, to prevent involuntary flailing, which is common in infants that young. The mohel used plenty of disinfectant, sterile gloves, sterile instruments, etc., and he also took time beforehand to meet the baby, sing to him, soothe him, and get him used to the mohel's touch, so he wouldn't be unduly upset.

For the record, the actual circumcision took two minutes or so, and the baby barely cried. He consistently has cried far, far worse from being cranky or having acid reflux than he ever cried at his circumcision.

Every bris I've ever been to, the mohel has been gentle, professional, kind, and quick; and the only bris I've ever been to where the baby really howled a lot was at a synagogue where the A/C was broken and it was cold in the sanctuary where the ritual took place, and the baby cried when they unwrapped him from his blanket.

That all sounds lovely, but why? What is the point?

 

[Poisonshady313]

That all sounds lovely, but why? What is the point?

And God said to Abraham, "And you shall keep My covenant, you and your seed after you throughout their generations.
This is My covenant, which you shall observe between Me and between you and between your seed after you, that every male among you be circumcised.
And you shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be as the sign of a covenant between Me and between you.
And at the age of eight days, every male shall be circumcised to you throughout your generations, one that is born in the house, or one that is purchased with money, from any foreigner, who is not of your seed.
Those born in the house and those purchased for money shall be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh as an everlasting covenant.
And an uncircumcised male, who will not circumcise the flesh of his foreskin-that soul will be cut off from its people; he has broken My covenant."
Genesis 17:9-14

And on the eighth day, the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.
Leviticus 12:3

 

[Alceste]

And God said to Abraham, "And you shall keep My covenant, you and your seed after you throughout their generations.
This is My covenant, which you shall observe between Me and between you and between your seed after you, that every male among you be circumcised.
And you shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be as the sign of a covenant between Me and between you.
And at the age of eight days, every male shall be circumcised to you throughout your generations, one that is born in the house, or one that is purchased with money, from any foreigner, who is not of your seed.
Those born in the house and those purchased for money shall be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh as an everlasting covenant.
And an uncircumcised male, who will not circumcise the flesh of his foreskin-that soul will be cut off from its people; he has broken My covenant."
Genesis 17:9-14

And on the eighth day, the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.
Leviticus 12:3

Thank you for your honesty.

 

[Father Heathen]

If you think there is no doubt, based on the available evidence, you are obviously not educated.

They only "doubt" comes from appeals to emotion, which doesn't factor into actual education.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Our boys were circumcised, though I gave birth to just one. His birth occurred during my first marriage. The decision to have him circumcised was not an easy one. I preferred not to since I felt it was unnecessary. His father insisted, and I felt compelled to acquiesce. I remember even though this was largely the desire of his father, he was not present when the procedure was done.

When my son was brought back to me, I remember that I sobbed on the doctors shoulders, who was very kind and let me cry freely, and that I said over and over again "I just butchered my child."

I recall his father finally coming back to the hospital where we were, and eventually convincing me that it really was okay. That he'll be fine, and I'll be fine. This is just more difficult for me than our son. I treated him post-op as directed by the doctor. He recovered very quickly.

None of the boys wish they were uncircumcized. Nobody remembers their circumcision. None of them think they were butchered or abused. But I do know that it was very traumatic for me when my son was being circumcised.

I think because I personally have gone through it as a parent and gave the "okay", that it's difficult to perceive it as abuse. Nobody wants to think they committed abuse on their child. If others feel that way, I have no argument against it. For me personally, it's a grey area.

 

[dust1n]

I think what Alceste is trying to say is: She's pro-choice for male foreskin. Which makes sense, however, she also neglects several details. A google search shows all the studies and arguments.

Circumsicion was to be a reminder. It worked for millions of people over a span of generations. The reminder was for God's guidance. The reminder that sacrifice is vital to growth and understanding. The reminder sacrifices the foreskin of the penis, undoubtedly so whenever we did anything from getting clothed, to *******, to having sex - that we'd remember God's guidance. It serves as something very important to people all around the world, for that regard, and is bolstered in whatever degree by recent medical study.

What medical studies bolster in whatever degree that circumcision is to be a reminder to not use your little friend inappropriately, and that this in any way actually works?

I very seriously doubt anyone was smart enough to do a 'medical' study on the psychological outcomes of circumcision. However, being that Abraham fathered the three most major religions of any time in history, and most all the adherents are circumsized for the reason I outlined - I'd say it's a working reminder.

So when you said circumcision was bolstered in whatever degree by recent medical study in regards of remembering some covenant to God, you weren't actually talking about any real medical studies?

 

[dust1n]

Honestly, I think this has very little to do with any genuine concern for infants and very much to do with cultural "squick".

Of course... wait, you meant circumcision, right? EDIT: Just trying to illustrate the point that that avenue clearly runs two ways.

 

[Father Heathen]

Of course... wait, you meant circumcision, right? EDIT: Just trying to illustrate the point that that avenue clearly runs two ways.

What.