Do you consider circumcision child abuse?

[Alceste]

They only "doubt" comes from appeals to emotion, which doesn't factor into actual education.

That's just not accurate. Statistics have been provided for circumcision-related deaths, infections and other complications which, for any reasonable person, ought to be enough to counter-balance the purported medical benefits.

I also find the "medical benefits" argument completely unconvincing. Partly, that's due to the historical and cultural context I gave, and partly because everybody in this thread who had their own child circumcised acknowledges that they did it for either cultural or cosmetic reasons.

Where is the appeal to emotion in there? If you're having emotional reactions to this stuff, you're a pretty sensitive guy.

 

[Levite]

That all sounds lovely, but why? What is the point?

And God said to Abraham, "And you shall keep My covenant, you and your seed after you throughout their generations.
This is My covenant, which you shall observe between Me and between you and between your seed after you, that every male among you be circumcised.
And you shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be as the sign of a covenant between Me and between you.
And at the age of eight days, every male shall be circumcised to you throughout your generations, one that is born in the house, or one that is purchased with money, from any foreigner, who is not of your seed.
Those born in the house and those purchased for money shall be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh as an everlasting covenant.
And an uncircumcised male, who will not circumcise the flesh of his foreskin-that soul will be cut off from its people; he has broken My covenant."
Genesis 17:9-14
And on the eighth day, the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.
Leviticus 12:3

^^This, essentially.

As you know, I have never suggested that circumcision ought to be universally mandatory: on the contrary, I have always said that parents should be free to choose what decisions they will make on their children's behalf, for both medical or cultural reasons.

I happen to believe that there are promising reasons to support the idea that circumcision can be a positive medical choice, but I am perfectly willing to concede that those data are hardly overwhelmingly persuasive, and that it is entirely reasonable for parents to wish their sons to remain uncircumcised. But in any case, my reasons for wishing to protect people's right to circumcise their children, and to not universally and unilaterally condemn all circumcision as illegitimate have nothing to do with potential health benefits or other medical data.

I am primarily interested in those cultures in which circumcision is an integral matter of identity, affiliation, faith, and spiritual membership being able to freely continue carrying on their traditions, and being able to do so without fear of being stigmatized as victimizers and abusers by their neighbors. I have no problem with people not choosing to circumcise, or in disagreeing with circumcision, or in holding different religious views, or with demanding reasonable safety, sanitary, and professional arrangements when circumcisions are performed: I only object to trying to prevent those who do believe in circumcision as something deeply important to their way of life from being able to do it, and to being widely depicted as child abusers for making what is, in the end, a choice about how to raise one's child to the best of one's abilities and understandings, no different than a thousand other choices-- medical, cultural, educational, behavioral-- that all parents routinely make for their children.

 

[Alceste]

Look, the only reason I answered that I do consider it abusive, technically, is because that's how the question was initially put. The only honest answer I can give to that particular question is yes. That doesn't mean I've got a "circumcision is child abuse" bumper sticker, or that I'm constantly writing my MP's to have it forever banned, or that l think parents who choose circumcision are horrible people.

If asked to use my own words, as opposed to answering a question, I prefer "absurd" to "abusive". I think it's an absurd thing to do to your kids. I know there is a cultural and religious context and history, yada yada, but it still strikes me as absurd.

 

[Levite]

Look, the only reason I answered that I do consider it abusive, technically, is because that's how the question was initially put. The only honest answer I can give to that particular question is yes. That doesn't mean I've got a "circumcision is child abuse" bumper sticker, or that I'm constantly writing my MP's to have it forever banned, or that l think parents who choose circumcision are horrible people.

If asked to use my own words, as opposed to answering a question, I prefer "absurd" to "abusive". I think it's an absurd thing to do to your kids. I know there is a cultural and religious context and history, yada yada, but it still strikes me as absurd.

OK, that's fair enough. I apologize if I seemed like I was going off on you. With all the anti-circ vitriol that actual activists are throwing around, it tends to put us Jews-- us rabbis especially-- a bit on the defensive.

 

[Father Heathen]

Where is the appeal to emotion in there?

The melodramatic exaggerations, of coarse. We're supposed to be too shocked and outraged by the supposed trauma to examine things objectively, right?

If you're having emotional reactions to this stuff, you're a pretty sensitive guy.

Cute, but valuing knowledge and honesty, your attempts to mischaracterize circumcision as the torture and mutilation of infants don't elicit any such reaction.

 

[Rakhel]

That's just not accurate. Statistics have been provided for circumcision-related deaths, infections and other complications which, for any reasonable person, ought to be enough to counter-balance the purported medical benefits.

I also find the "medical benefits" argument completely unconvincing. Partly, that's due to the historical and cultural context I gave, and partly because everybody in this thread who had their own child circumcised acknowledges that they did it for either cultural or cosmetic reasons.

Where is the appeal to emotion in there? If you're having emotional reactions to this stuff, you're a pretty sensitive guy.

Not entirely accurate.
My last child(he better be my last or I will snip-snip yosi myself) was circumcised based on the advice of his Neurologist. Seems that Spina Bifida kids, especially later in life, are more prone to infections due to a lack of bladder control.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I am primarily interested in those cultures in which circumcision is an integral matter of identity, affiliation, faith, and spiritual membership being able to freely continue carrying on their traditions, and being able to do so without fear of being stigmatized as victimizers and abusers by their neighbors.

So... not only do you want to be free to do it, you want others to think it's a good idea?

I think it's interesting that you appeal to freedom when you're talking about an act that's intended to dictate the religion a child will follow for the rest of his life. It seems to me that this is a selective sort of "freedom".

I have no problem with people not choosing to circumcise, or in disagreeing with circumcision, or in holding different religious views, or with demanding reasonable safety, sanitary, and professional arrangements when circumcisions are performed: I only object to trying to prevent those who do believe in circumcision as something deeply important to their way of life from being able to do it, and to being widely depicted as child abusers for making what is, in the end, a choice about how to raise one's child to the best of one's abilities and understandings, no different than a thousand other choices-- medical, cultural, educational, behavioral-- that all parents routinely make for their children.

Can you give some examples? What sort of choices that parents make for their children are on par with trying to choose their religion?

Now... I know that some parents do try to dictate things like a child's career path or their politics, but this is generally seen as a negative thing. Why shouldn't trying to dictate a child's religion be seen in a similar light?

 

[Alceste]

Not entirely accurate.
My last child(he better be my last or I will snip-snip yosi myself) was circumcised based on the advice of his Neurologist. Seems that Spina Bifida kids, especially later in life, are more prone to infections due to a lack of bladder control.

Do you have other boys, and are they circumcised? Would you have had your son circumcised without a recommendation from a doctor?

In some cases, it can be therapeutic or medically necessary. I've acknowledged this already. I simply think those cases are very rare and that most people don't choose circumcision for therapeutic reasons.

 

[Tarheeler]

I posted (in #106) that my wife and I chose to have our sons circumcised after speaking to our doctors. Not for any specific condition, but for the benefits it provided.
Cultural identity (such as all the men in my family being circumcised) also played a role, but I would have to say that it wasn't as much of a motivator as the medical advice.

If I had to do it over again, I would still have my sons circumcised. Only now I would have the added reason of religious observance.

 

[Rakhel]

Do you have other boys, and are they circumcised? Would you have had your son circumcised without a recommendation from a doctor?

In some cases, it can be therapeutic or medically necessary. I've acknowledged this already. I simply think those cases are very rare and that most people don't choose circumcision for therapeutic reasons.

Actually, I have one other son, and he too was circumcised based on doctor's advice. Though to be fair, that doctor was Jewish.
Further, simply because you circumcise one son does not necessarily mean that you are going to circumcise all sons.

 

[Alceste]

Actually, I have one other son, and he too was circumcised based on doctor's advice. Though to be fair, that doctor was Jewish.
Further, simply because you circumcise one son does not necessarily mean that you are going to circumcise all sons.

Apparently not, but I hope you understand my skepticism when Jewish moms who have had all their sons circumcised and would have done so even without a doctor's recommendation claim that they chose circumcision for purely medical / therapeutic reasons. No cultural influence? No cosmetic preference? No sense of wanting Jr. "to look like dad"? Nothing but the doctor's orders?

Me, I would have asked for a second opinion.

 

[dawny0826]

That's just not accurate. Statistics have been provided for circumcision-related deaths, infections and other complications which, for any reasonable person, ought to be enough to counter-balance the purported medical benefits.

I also find the "medical benefits" argument completely unconvincing. Partly, that's due to the historical and cultural context I gave, and partly because everybody in this thread who had their own child circumcised acknowledges that they did it for either cultural or cosmetic reasons.

Where is the appeal to emotion in there? If you're having emotional reactions to this stuff, you're a pretty sensitive guy.

Actually, for some of us, the cultural, religious and aesthetic reasons would be just part of it. I'm, personally a fan of the CDC and echo the sentiments of my mother and sister, both RNs who spend much of their time caring for patients.

From here:



Summary

• Male circumcision reduces the risk that a man will acquire HIV from an infected female partner, and also lowers the risk of other STDs , penile cancer, and infant urinary tract infection.
• For female partners, male circumcision reduces the risk of cervical cancer, genital ulceration, bacterial vaginosis, trichomoniasis, and HPV. Although male circumcision has risks including pain, bleeding, and infection, more serious complications are rare.

Your shtick on how medical benefits don't exist doesn't fly with a good deal of medical professionals who actually work with the elderly and patients who have medical conditions for which foreskin contributes.

 

[Alceste]

Actually, for some of us, the cultural, religious and aesthetic reasons would be just part of it. I'm, personally a fan of the CDC and echo the sentiments of my mother and sister, both RNs who spend much of their time caring for patients.

From here:



Summary

• Male circumcision reduces the risk that a man will acquire HIV from an infected female partner, and also lowers the risk of other STDs , penile cancer, and infant urinary tract infection.
• For female partners, male circumcision reduces the risk of cervical cancer, genital ulceration, bacterial vaginosis, trichomoniasis, and HPV. Although male circumcision has risks including pain, bleeding, and infection, more serious complications are rare.

Your shtick on how medical benefits don't exist doesn't fly with a good deal of medical professionals who actually work with the elderly and patients who have medical conditions for which foreskin contributes.

Have you been looking at any of the evidence and arguments presented by the other side? I haven't missed these claims. I simply don't find them any more persuasive than the claims of the opposite side. IOW, the purported benefits are counter-balanced by the purported risks.

 

[Levite]

So... not only do you want to be free to do it, you want others to think it's a good idea?

I think it's interesting that you appeal to freedom when you're talking about an act that's intended to dictate the religion a child will follow for the rest of his life. It seems to me that this is a selective sort of "freedom".

I don't care if others like the practice or not. I care that they keep their criticisms reasonable and free of melodramatic invective, or keep their opinions to themselves. I don't go around yelling at non-Jews about practices I think are ridiculous or offensive unless what is being said or done directly affects me or mine: I expect the same courtesy in return.

Can you give some examples? What sort of choices that parents make for their children are on par with trying to choose their religion?

Now... I know that some parents do try to dictate things like a child's career path or their politics, but this is generally seen as a negative thing. Why shouldn't trying to dictate a child's religion be seen in a similar light?

Keep in mind Judaism is a socioreligious ethnicity: it is religion, culture, and nationality in one. The closest equivalent I can think of in terms of the overall effect of choosing to sever your child from access to his Jewish identity is like Native Anericans choosing to leave the reservation and their traditional community for the secular American society, cutting them off from traditional ritual, language, and spirituality.

I simply refuse to accept the premise that deculturating my son is a good trade for an extra useless flap of skin.

 

[dawny0826]

Have you been looking at any of the evidence and arguments presented by the other side? I haven't missed these claims. I simply don't find them any more persuasive than the claims of the opposite side. IOW, the purported benefits are counter-balanced by the purported risks.

Of course I have. And my consistent argument has been that parents should be able to make educated decisions for their children, weighing and determining if risks are worthwhile for their children.

I have no disrespect for your preference towards the arguments and evidence provided from the "other side". What I have consistently found distasteful and hypocritical is your choice of labeling.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't care if others like the practice or not. I care that they keep their criticisms reasonable and free of melodramatic invective, or keep their opinions to themselves. I don't go around yelling at non-Jews about practices I think are ridiculous or offensive unless what is being said or done directly affects me or mine: I expect the same courtesy in return.

So if your neighbour told you about his plans to hurt a child, you wouldn't say anything?

Keep in mind Judaism is a socioreligious ethnicity: it is religion, culture, and nationality in one.

Keep in mind that in your country and mine, rights are vested in individuals, not communities. The only rights that a community has are those that are derived from the individual rights of its members.

The closest equivalent I can think of in terms of the overall effect of choosing to sever your child from access to his Jewish identity is like Native Anericans choosing to leave the reservation and their traditional community for the secular American society, cutting them off from traditional ritual, language, and spirituality.

I simply refuse to accept the premise that deculturating my son is a good trade for an extra useless flap of skin.

What does freedom of religion mean to you?

Do you see an effort to steer your son towards Judaism as a limitation on his freedom of religion?

 

[Rakhel]

Apparently not, but I hope you understand my skepticism when Jewish moms who have had all their sons circumcised and would have done so even without a doctor's recommendation claim that they chose circumcision for purely medical / therapeutic reasons. No cultural influence? No cosmetic preference? No sense of wanting Jr. "to look like dad"? Nothing but the doctor's orders?

Me, I would have asked for a second opinion.

"Doctor's orders?"
You do know that parents are required to sign a release form, right?
And that parent's are given as much of a choice to have the procedure done as they are to give their kids vaccines?
Forcing my child to be stuck with a painful needle some 2 dozen times and injected with something they are telling us is medically necessary, is considered no less abusive, according to some, as is circumcision.
And I don't see people asking for second opinions on about vaccines either.

 

[dawny0826]

"Doctor's orders?"
You do know that parents are required to sign a release form, right?
And that parent's are given as much of a choice to have the procedure done as they are to give their kids vaccines?
Forcing my child to be stuck with a painful needle some 2 dozen times and injected with something they are telling us is medically necessary, is considered no less abusive, according to some, as is circumcision.
And I don't see people asking for second opinions on about vaccines either.

I think there is more cultural disconnect and misunderstanding on this issue than we probably care to admit - how things are done in America vs. Canada...

 

[Rakhel]

I think there is more cultural disconnect and misunderstanding on this issue than we probably care to admit - how things are done in America vs. Canada...

More than likely.

 

[Father Heathen]

So if your neighbour told you about his plans to hurt a child, you wouldn't say anything?

Dental work can be painful, as can be vaccinations, therefore dentists and doctors are abusive monsters? Don't be disingenuous, and compare committing deliberate and malicious harm to beneficial or benign things where pain may be an unintended consequence.

Keep in mind that in your country and mine, rights are vested in individuals, not communities. The only rights that a community has are those that are derived from the individual rights of its members.

Except for unemancipated dependents.

What does freedom of religion mean to you?

Do you see an effort to steer your son towards Judaism as a limitation on his freedom of religion?

Ultimately, the child's religious beliefs will be dictated by his brain, not his penis.