Do you consider circumcision child abuse?

[Alceste]

It decreases risks of several health conditions and quite honestly the only downside is pain that should be shortlived anyways. Life is painful. This has benefits.

It sounds like a very reasonable choice to give parents.

There are other possible complications besides pain. Infection, for example. And some people react badly to anesthesia. In some cases, too much or too little skin is removed, increasing the risk of complications even further. The only evidence supporting the practice presented so far in the thread comes from the US, where the surgery is very common and the majority of people are rather devout Christians. I've seen equally compelling evidence that the benefits are minimal and matched by the risks from equally credible medical organizations in countries with a lower Christian population where the surgery is uncommon.

It's hardly settled once and for all. Not even the American study recommends universal circumcision.

 

[Father Heathen]

Here's a question: of the portion of the population that are circumcised, what percentage of them claim to feel violated and traumatized? Wouldn't the views of the "victims" hold far more value than anyone else's?

I've noticed that everyone has been dodging this question. Likely because they know the answer will bring an end to the debate.

Shouldn't it be the "victims" of circumcision themselves who make the determination of whether or not it constitutes "abuse"? To make such a declaration on their behalf when they have their own voice is rather pretentious, presumptuous and patronizing.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Explain how properly cleaning your penis prevents phimosis.

Did you get a bulk discount on straw men or something? This is getting ridiculous.

 

[Nyingjé Tso]

Vanakkam,

This is just my personal opinion, but I don't see any problem...Only if it's performed in safe condition by professionnal and qualified people. Meaning not your uncle's cousin with the kitchen knife.

It's a subject that have been brough on by many friends and people around me since High school. Muslims, Jews, and even Atheists here get circumsized or choose to do it during their teen, mostly for esthetic and hygiene reasons. And I have no objections to this ^^

 

[Alceste]

I've noticed that everyone has been dodging this question. Likely because they know the answer will bring an end to the debate.

Shouldn't it be the "victims" of circumcision themselves who make the determination of whether or not it constitutes "abuse"? To make such a declaration on their behalf when they have their own voice is rather pretentious, presumptuous and patronizing.

I don't google on demand. I didn't answer the question because l don't know the answer. Someone offered the statistic of 20%. No evidence has been presented to support or rebut that claim. It's just sitting there unchallenged.

 

[Father Heathen]

Did you get a bulk discount on straw men or something? This is getting ridiculous.

Calm down, son.

Again, I used the same logic. Cleaning X doesn't prevent Y.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

"circumcision is that of the foreskin of the HEART" Romans 2:28
i think some pervert misinterpret heart as penis?

"unto this day when Moses is read a veil is upon their HEART" 2 Cor 3:15
no way this is what need to be removed/circumcised.. having veil on heart sounds like a good thing?

back to your fleshy interpretation

So we should remove our pericardium? :yes:

 

[mycorrhiza]

Shouldn't it be the "victims" of circumcision themselves who make the determination of whether or not it constitutes "abuse"? To make such a declaration on their behalf when they have their own voice is rather pretentious, presumptuous and patronizing.

People who are circumcised have spoken out against circumcision. Here's an example from this very website, in a thread started by yourself, where 9 circumcised men voted that circumcision was wrong . (and apparently, my argument then looks nearly identical to my argument now, even the same comparisons)

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-debates/130986-male-circumcision-poll.html

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I've noticed that everyone has been dodging this question. Likely because they know the answer will bring an end to the debate.

Shouldn't it be the "victims" of circumcision themselves who make the determination of whether or not it constitutes "abuse"? To make such a declaration on their behalf when they have their own voice is rather pretentious, presumptuous and patronizing.

If you like the fact that you were circumcised, then good for you. Many circumcised men don't like the fact that they were circumcised. Some examples:

National Organization of Circumcision Information Resource Centers Intactivists
Results for the Global Survey of Circumcision Harm

Is it "pretentious, presumptous and patronizing" for you to speak for them?

 

[Me Myself]

If you like the fact that you were circumcised, then good for you. Many circumcised men don't like the fact that they were circumcised. Some examples:

National Organization of Circumcision Information Resource Centers Intactivists
Results for the Global Survey of Circumcision Harm

Is it "pretentious, presumptous and patronizing" for you to speak for them?

Yes, but it wasnt so for their parents when they were babies. Te legal guardiand gake on the health concerns until they are big enough to make their own choices.

 

[dawny0826]

Explain how.

If FH and I were to have our son circumcised, it would be a decision that we would make, believing it to be in the best interest of our son without the intent to harm him in any way.

Now, you explain to me how this compares to burning a child with a freaking cigarette.

You're labeling "abuse", where abuse isn't at all intended.

One procedure is a sterile surgical procedure - the other is a physical act of literal abuse, with the intent to harm. You know as well as I do, that many of the stats regarding circumcision are inconclusive and I've never said that it's something that SHOULD be done. I've said that parents should decide if the risks are worthwhile and discuss the procedure thoroughly with a pediatrician beforehand.

If it's something that they feel is RIGHT for their child for whatever reason, it should be parents' choice. It's the uneducated decision that's the WRONG decision.

I loathe the hypocrisy that drips within this thread. A woman should have the right to choose as to whether or not she brings the boy into the world but God forbid she has his penis cut. God forbid you give her the actual ability to parent or practice any religious customs that concern her child. Because, YOU might find it abusive or offensive, Jeff.

FORGET about all the MEN who were actually circumcised at birth, Jeff and DISAGREE with you. Their opinion doesn't mean anything.

Afterall, you're the one with stats on your side. Stats say everything. Parental rights and religious freedoms mean nothing.

 

[Father Heathen]

National Organization of Circumcision Information Resource Centers Intactivists
Results for the Global Survey of Circumcision Harm

When I look at these, I immediately notice the melodramatic use of language, the appeals to emotion and anecdotes. Do I have to navigate a labyrinth of soppy prattle to find some credible, substantiated data?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

When I look at these, I immediately notice the melodramatic use of language, the appeals to emotion and anecdotes. Do I have to navigate a labyrinth of soppy prattle to find some credible, substantiated data?

Apparently the place with the sale on straw man also had a good deal on shifting goalposts. I brought those up in response to your point about the opinions of circumcised men. Those are the sites for groups of circumcised men who disagree strongly with infant circumcision.

If you'd like data, I can give you data. You asked about opinion, which is what I provided.

 

[Poisonshady313]

If you like the fact that you were circumcised, then good for you. Many circumcised men don't like the fact that they were circumcised. Some examples:

National Organization of Circumcision Information Resource Centers Intactivists
Results for the Global Survey of Circumcision Harm

Is it "pretentious, presumptous and patronizing" for you to speak for them?

It is pretentious, presumptuous and patronizing for them to presume to speak for us.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It is pretentious, presumptuous and patronizing for them to presume to speak for us.

I'm not presuming that. All I'm presuming is that a significant number of circumcised men wish they hadn't been circumcised as infants, and that the men who do like being circumcised would have been perfectly capable of getting the procedure done when they were old enough to choose it of their own free will.

There are three important groups here:

1. Men who were circumcised as infants but wish they hadn't been.
2. Men who were circumcised as infants, are happy with their circumcision, and would get circumcised as adults if they hadn't been circumcised as infants.
3. Men who were circumcised as infants, are happy with their circumcision, but wouldn't get the procedure done as an adult if they hadn't been circumcised as infants.

Group 1 is a reason not to circumcise infants. Group 2 gets the same outcome either way, so they're neither a reason for or against.

Group 3... I don't see why they warrant consideration in all this. If they don't care enough about circumcision to get the procedure done as an adult, then I don't think their feelings should outweigh those of the men in Group 1.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

A fairly balanced article and statistics here
BBC News - Circumcision, the ultimate parenting dilemma

The bottom line is... they stick to their guns. They choose the pieces of information that bolster their argument and run with that."

 

[Father Heathen]

"The bottom line is... they stick to their guns. They choose the pieces of information that bolster their argument and run with that."

That quote sums up the anti-circumcision stance rather well.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

That quote sums up the anti-circumcision stance rather well.

It refers to both sides equally.

Children and old men like to show their scars where ever they are.

 

[Alceste]

A fairly balanced article and statistics here
BBC News - Circumcision, the ultimate parenting dilemma

That was a great article. Seemed pretty comprehensive.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Thanks for the clarifications. But would you agree that in Egyptian or Israeli society to leave the choice to the boy for the time that he grows up will only make life harder for him?

If the procedure doesn't have a big chance of causing adverse medical effects, then I suppose societal tradition would tip the scales in favor of having it done earlier, yes.

And this is relevant to the point I raised in an earlier post: if a tradition was shown to be harmful or more likely than not to have adverse effects on people, then it should be criticized and changed if possible rather than being maintained anyway.

I'm not saying that circumcision is necessarily harmful or should be made illegal, by the way; I just raised that point in my questions about the argument that circumcision shouldn't be made illegal because it's an expression of cultural identity, as I don't think that being an expression of cultural identity in and of itself warrants protecting a practice or endorsing it if said practice was shown to be harmful.