Do you consider Satanism a valid Pagan tradition?

[Unveiled Artist]

Pagan traditions are not made by leaders, but grow naturally throughout history of a people.

Nice.

 

[Cassandra]

@Cassandra Your description sounds pretty prejudiced and I don't really find my religion reflected in your description.

Balance and the harmony between the "lower" and "higher" parts is central to Satanism, and most of us certainly don't aim for self-destruction, on the contrary.

I am not talking about "your" personal religion, I a talking about Satanism.

Satanism does not strive for balance and harmony. that really is an odd representation of what their leaders have been saying and doing. Taking the brakes out of car and driving with high speed is not seeking balance and harmony. Seeking power in magic is the opposite of seeking balance and harmony. Letting go of inhibitions may be relieving for people grown up with overly restricted upbringing, but Satanism is swinging the pendulum to the other side. That kind of temporary release does not create balance, nor is it Satan's role in Nature to create balance. his very role is to create imbalance.

One has to admire Satan, he does know his job.
I seem to have more Appreciation for Satan then you have. I understand the role of Satan in Nature, what he brings and does not bring. I feel no reason to deny, reject, or embrace Satan. A little bit of Satan is like the spice in a meal. It enhances the taste. We all love that. Pagan traditions are meals, the trickster God is the spice in the meals. It is not a tradition, but its necessary counter point.

Why is it that Satan has such boring followers here, who want to only look respectable? I guess they are not his finest.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

From what I've gathered from a wide range of Satanists, it is absolutely not recklessly seeking power, like a car with no brakes. It is seeking self-empowerment and freedom from social and theological slavery, realizing that you are the key to your own salvation, and thus you have the ability to become as powerful as you can through knowledge of self and knowledge in general.

 

[Aštra’el]

Satanism is not one religion, therefore the question, "Is Satanism a valid pagan religion", makes absolutely no sense; it comes off as rooted in ignorance and misconception.

There are certain forms of "Satanism" which I would not personally use the word "pagan" to describe... and there are some which I certainly would describe as "pagan".

And, whether or not my own traditions of devil worship make my pagan spiritual-religious system "invalid" in the eyes of certain pagans here is irrelevant and means absolutely nothing to me. However, I welcome any individual to challenge my views on the matter if they feel they can, if only because I will take great pleasure in the act of responding to that challenge.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I welcome any individual to challenge my views on the matter if they feel they can,

Well, for one, how are you using "pagan" to mean?

 

[Liu]

I am not talking about "your" personal religion, I a talking about Satanism.

Satanism does not strive for balance and harmony. that really is an odd representation of what their leaders have been saying and doing. Taking the brakes out of car and driving with high speed is not seeking balance and harmony. Seeking power in magic is the opposite of seeking balance and harmony. Letting go of inhibitions may be relieving for people grown up with overly restricted upbringing, but Satanism is swinging the pendulum to the other side. That kind of temporary release does not create balance, nor is it Satan's role in Nature to create balance. his very role is to create imbalance.

One has to admire Satan, he does know his job.
I seem to have more Appreciation for Satan then you have. I understand the role of Satan in Nature, what he brings and does not bring. I feel no reason to deny, reject, or embrace Satan. A little bit of Satan is like the spice in a meal. It enhances the taste. We all love that. Pagan traditions are meals, the trickster God is the spice in the meals. It is not a tradition, but its necessary counter point.

Why is it that Satan has such boring followers here, who want to only look respectable? I guess they are not his finest.

Seems like we have differing views on what we associate with harmony.
By harmony I mean avoiding the suppression of aspects of my being, thereby avoiding psychological stress. I mean acknowledging both peaceful and violent urges, not condemning either but trying to work out the best solution for full-filling my will. Satanism is not about harming oneself by over-indulgence, but by doing what will help one best in the long run, as our spiritual goal is that of self-deification.
Your reply brought to my mind this blog entry on harmony which I recently read: On the delusional opinion of peace
Admittedly, as also this blog entry mentions, balance wasn't the best term for what I meant. But maybe you'll now get a better impression of what (some) Satanists are about.

Which leaders of Satanism are you referring to?

 

[Aštra’el]

Well, for one, how are you using "pagan" to mean?

Are you acknowledging a particular level of subjectivity attached to the term "pagan"?

I have no definition for "pagan"... though, I would like to know one's reasons for not considering pagan a person whose spiritual-religious system includes:

-worship of nature with deep reverence (especially the desert, the night, the storms, the sea, and the cosmos)

-a profound reverence for human Nature (individual and collective)

-an entire pantheon of gods and goddesses, who are worshipped

-numerous traditions and rituals (some generational, many individually developed)

-observing with deep reverence the profound significance of the solstices and equinoxes, and their midpoints; a deep reverence for the earth and its cycles

-one's own developing culture through original rituals and traditions, incantations, artistic depictions of gods and goddesses, and esoteric spiritual-religious symbols... all while remaining open to potential strength, power, wisdom, and beauty that may be found in cultures that came before

-etc

___

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Are you acknowledging a particular level of subjectivity attached to the term "pagan"?

Yes. In the past 'pagan' has been used - typically as a pejorative - to describe any religious belief that is not Christian. I've even seen Jews described as "pagan".

In the modern age, however, "Pagan" "is used to describe a number of religions. There is some contention, however I employ frequency and self-identification in my (and my colleagues) use of it. That is, modern reconstructions of pre-Christian cultural beliefs of Europe. It is frequently encountered as such as "Pagan" sections of book stores have books of Norse, Greek/Roman, Celtic, and sometimes Egyptian mythology and culture. Egypt, however, isn't often counted among "Pagan" religions in that Kemeticists and Asetians don't identify themselves as Pagan - some in my experience have even taken offense.

With that in mind, Satanism would not be a Pagan religion either, as it's not based in European pre-Christian myth and culture. There are some similarities, sure, but it's not exactly perpetuating and continuing those cultures. Do keep in mind, though, this isn't meant to be a bad thing, it's just a definition for organizational sake; if "pagan" is synonymous with "non-Christian", then it's a useless term with a functioning and able synonym.

 

[paarsurrey]

Do you consider Satanism a valid Pagan tradition?

If paganism is a revealed religion then Satanism is not at all a valid concept. Please
Regards

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

None of the paths within Paganism are revealed religions.

 

[paarsurrey]

None of the paths within Paganism are revealed religions.

Socrates believed in One-God? Didn't he? Please
Regards

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Monotheism doesn't equate a revealed religion. Nor does one man enumerate his culture's beliefs. A revealed religion is a religion based on "divine revelation". Paganism does not have that.

 

[Aštra’el]

In the modern age, however, "Pagan" "is used to describe a number of religions. There is some contention, however I employ frequency and self-identification in my (and my colleagues) use of it. That is, modern reconstructions of pre-Christian cultural beliefs of Europe.

I am not particularly fond of this definition of "paganism"...

I have lived in the desert for most of my life. Desert pantheons and desert spiritual-religious cultures naturally appeal to me in certain ways that paganisms of far greener and colder habitats do not. I can of course find strength, power, wisdom and beauty in these places as well... due to my passion for religion and nature, my passion for human Nature, and my passion for the esoteric symbolism and insights hidden within spiritual-religious culture and lore.

But to say that one is not "pagan"simply because they do not embrace the Celtic gods or Norse gods or whoever, but instead worship a Mesopotamian pantheon, or an Egyptian pantheon, or some other pantheon- possibly of their own design- I think is not a train of thought that I would support.

To say that one is not "pagan" because the majority of their traditions and rituals were independently developed rather than generationally inherited from one specific continent on earth... I think is not a train of thought I would support.

So, while I may not have presented a definition of "pagan", I am not about to outcast a person from some pagan circle just because one's polytheistic pantheon is not European in origin, or because one has an inclination towards developing one's own rituals and traditions... or because one's pantheon and spiritual-religious system has evolved through one to compliment one's Weltanschauung and True Will and goals and ambitions, in a way that is relevant to one's world and life in the present.

 

[paarsurrey]

Socrates believed in One-God? Didn't he? Please
Regards

I mentioned ONE-GOD with attributes reflected by positive verities exhibited in nature/Universe. Please
Regards

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

So, while I may not have presented a definition of "pagan", I am not about to outcast a person from some pagan circle just because one's polytheistic pantheon is not European in origin, or because one has an inclination towards developing one's own rituals and traditions...

First, it's not outcasting people. non-Pagan faiths have been - and will continue to be - welcome at many Pagan gatherings and events. Recognizing that someone is not a part of your faith community is not the same thing as ostracizing them.

There are also Pagans who, while their practices are rooted in European tradition, worship non-Pagan deities. While it's not something that I would do, I have seen Litha celebrations done in honor of Egyptian gods.

Let me ask you; why are you attached to the label of "Pagan"?

 

[paarsurrey]

Do you consider Satanism a valid Pagan tradition?

Satanism is not a positive ideology.
Regards

 

[Desert Snake]

'paganism' is a pretty broad label. Better to just use 'satanism', and then use other descriptions to describe what 'type' of satanism it is.


hence voted no

 

[Aštra’el]

Let me ask you; why are you attached to the label of "Pagan"?

I tend to simply refer to my "religion" as "my spiritual-religious system". A simple one word label usually does not accurately or sufficiently convey the depth and meaning and characteristics of my spiritual-religious system.

"Pagan" is one of those of which I feel does, however, for many reasons, some which I described earlier in the topic.

A religious label often implies many things, hence why I do not often use them. I am content, however, with whatever the term "paganism" implies. Any false assumptions people might make are likely only a matter of minor detail.

 

[Liu]

Do you consider Satanism a valid Pagan tradition?

Satanism is not a positive ideology.
Regards

What makes you think so? It may depend on what you mean by positive, but from the perspective of us Satanists it certainly is positive - why else would we make/consider it our religion?

 

[Luciferi Baphomet]

Reductio ad absurdum.

What does that mean?