Do you forgive (the Abrahamic) God?

[an anarchist]

For the sake of this thread, let's suppose some form of Abraham's God is really real and the theistic religion has the facts right. I'm gonna go with Christianity, as that's what I'm most familiar with.

Christians say that you need God's forgiveness because we are filthy sinners. Luckily, Jesus died so His Father would not look at us without disgust.

But I ask you... Do you forgive Jesus and His Father? I don't.

Look at all the suffering. Look at the genocides that the Father ordered the Israelites to carry out in Cannan! He openly ordered murder of people who broke a seemingly artificial moral law book. He flooded the earth and all the animals in it. Reading the Bible, it seems to me that God puts us through unnecessary misery, as He brags about His omnipotence.

So... no! I don't forgive God. I balk at the idea that Yahweh is demanding that I seek forgiveness from Him! My mother held her faith that Jesus would cure her cancer all the way to the very end... Do I forgive Jesus for allowing me to watch my mother die as a babe? No! Though, some would argue it was good because it built my character...

So, hypothetically, if an Abrahamic God is real, do you forgive Him?

 

[nPeace]

For the sake of this thread, let's suppose some form of Abraham's God is really real and the theistic religion has the facts right. I'm gonna go with Christianity, as that's what I'm most familiar with.

Christians say that you need God's forgiveness because we are filthy sinners. Luckily, Jesus died so His Father would not look at us without disgust.

But I ask you... Do you forgive Jesus and His Father? I don't.

Look at all the suffering. Look at the genocides that the Father ordered the Israelites to carry out in Cannan! He openly ordered murder of people who broke a seemingly artificial moral law book. He flooded the earth and all the animals in it. Reading the Bible, it seems to me that God puts us through unnecessary misery, as He brags about His omnipotence.

So... no! I don't forgive God. I balk at the idea that Yahweh is demanding that I seek forgiveness from Him! My mother held her faith that Jesus would cure her cancer all the way to the very end... Do I forgive Jesus for allowing me to watch my mother die as a babe? No! Though, some would argue it was good because it built my character...

So, hypothetically, if an Abrahamic God is real, do you forgive Him?

I look at it this way...
Suppose that the Abrahamic God is real... Then had not for his love, I would not exist, because he would not have created Adam... let alone Eve.
Just suppose he did though. Thankfully, he didn't kill them off, for rebelling, before they give birth to my fore-parents, and I got to exist.
So yeah. I forgive God and Jesus for allowing me to live, and making it possible to live forever, and enjoy the real life... the one Adam deprived his offspring of... but big deal... only temporarily. I mean... they have no need of forgiveness.

Sorry about your mom.
She has been forgiven for being misled into believing that God is like the genie in the bottle. Rub it, and your wish is his command... which he obeys.
Sadly, many have been led to believing this.
I would have too, if I did not have a study of the Bible with his servants here on earth.

Losing a loved one in death is not a good thing. Death is an enemy... which God is determined to end, and God yearns to see his lost loved ones again, so he will bring the dead back to life.

Just something I think is worth considering. How often have we humans been wrong? How often have we discovered how flawed we are, and moreover powerless in saving our fleeting lives?
Scientists do have aims, but can they really achieve what mankind yearns for - everlasting life, where no one will ever die?
The richest men in the world cannot preserve their life, with their $$$$$$.
Was it SpaceX that exploded a few days ago?

Might we be the ones in the wrong?
Could it be we don't have our facts straight.

 

[SalixIncendium]

But I ask you... Do you forgive Jesus and His Father? I don't.

What did Jesus do that demands forgiveness?

 

[an anarchist]

What did Jesus do that demands forgiveness?

Didn't do enough. He left us here on earth with a promise he'll come back, sorta like a dad who goes to buy cigarettes and never returns.

He casts people into hell, (if He is God and the Christians are right, then He does). I'll never forgive Jesus for not buying my friends salvation simply because he is an atheist.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Didn't do enough. He left us here on earth with a promise he'll come back, sorta like a dad who goes to buy cigarettes and never returns.

Not really the same thing, though, is it? If dad goes out to buy cigarettes, it's implied that he'll be back immediately when he's done with the purchase. Did Jesus say when he'd be back? AFAIK, we haven't reached the end of 'never' yet.

Furthermore, where did Jesus say he would identify himself as Jesus when he returned?

He casts people into hell, (if He is God and the Christians are right, then He does). I'll never forgive Jesus for not buying my friends salvation simply because he is an atheist.

The OP didn't tell us to suppose that Jesus is the same as this god that casts people into hell. That's not how I view Jesus.

For that matter I don't even believe that there is some transcendent dude that can cast people into hell. In my experience, people cast themselves there.

 

[SalixIncendium]

My mother held her faith that Jesus would cure her cancer all the way to the very end... Do I forgive Jesus for allowing me to watch my mother die as a babe? No!

While I'm sorry you went through what you did, I'm not sure how you could blame Jesus for this. You assume he allowed it. You assume that he intended to let your mother die of cancer, and furthermore intended to make you suffer as a result.

My daughter held faith that her doctor and his team would cure her cancer. Should I not forgive the them for allowing me to watch my daughter die?

 

[Brian2]

For the sake of this thread, let's suppose some form of Abraham's God is really real and the theistic religion has the facts right. I'm gonna go with Christianity, as that's what I'm most familiar with.

Christians say that you need God's forgiveness because we are filthy sinners. Luckily, Jesus died so His Father would not look at us without disgust.

But I ask you... Do you forgive Jesus and His Father? I don't.

Look at all the suffering. Look at the genocides that the Father ordered the Israelites to carry out in Cannan! He openly ordered murder of people who broke a seemingly artificial moral law book. He flooded the earth and all the animals in it. Reading the Bible, it seems to me that God puts us through unnecessary misery, as He brags about His omnipotence.

So... no! I don't forgive God. I balk at the idea that Yahweh is demanding that I seek forgiveness from Him! My mother held her faith that Jesus would cure her cancer all the way to the very end... Do I forgive Jesus for allowing me to watch my mother die as a babe? No! Though, some would argue it was good because it built my character...

So, hypothetically, if an Abrahamic God is real, do you forgive Him?

If we are talking about the Abrhamic God then He is good, does nothing wrong, even if we find it hard to see that when we look at the world and want to blame God for all the evil and suffering.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What did Jesus do that demands forgiveness?

The answer to this question depends a lot on whether Jesus and God are the same person.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If we are talking about the Abrhamic God then He is good, does nothing wrong, even if we find it hard to see that when we look at the world and want to blame God for all the evil and suffering.

This attitude - calling evil and suffering "good" in a vain attempt to protect God's image - is one of the worst things about Abrahamic religion, IMO.

 

[SalixIncendium]

The answer to this question depends a lot on whether Jesus and God are the same person.

Has anyone ever seen them together?

 

[Jainarayan]

He casts people into hell, (if He is God and the Christians are right, then He does)

Do you really believe that? I don't. He was a master of hyperbole, melodrama, metaphors, allegory and parables. His audience were simple farmers, villagers, laborers. In a word, they were village idiots. They did not and could not understand high philosophy. I think so much of what he said has been mistranslated, twisted and corrupted to suit different agendas.

The Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox, and I dare say the Anglican, Churches do not hold the view that he tosses people into hell. And just what is hell? It's separation from and not seeing God based on choices we make. In Hinduism we have a not dissimilar concept. Hell, and we do have one, is not a place of punishment but rather, not attaining God at least temporarily.

As far as the Abrahamic God himself, to me he's just another deity from another pantheon whom I don't worship and is irrelevant to me. Jesus himself? A sage, a teacher, a prophet, a self-realized soul, maybe a partial incarnation of God (I'm iffy on that one).

 

[an anarchist]

My daughter held faith that her doctor and his team would cure her cancer. Should I not forgive the them for allowing me to watch my daughter die?

Well, doctors aren't god. Jesus is a miracle healer, right? If he is really the son of god, I personally think he should intervene in every case of suffering, since He is God. So I'm holding god and man to different standards.

 

[Jainarayan]

My mother held her faith that Jesus would cure her cancer all the way to the very end... Do I forgive Jesus for allowing me to watch my mother die as a babe? No! Though, some would argue it was good because it built my character...

I'm sorry you endured that. I also watched my mother die of ovarian cancer. The day she died I had just come from church (Orthodox) to the hospital. Within an hour or so she took her last breath. I didn't then, nor ever believed God does these things. Nor did I ever believe it's his responsibility to prevent them.

This is the problem and the corner Christians have painted themselves into by believing their God is an all-controlling, omniscient, omnipotent God. Where does it say it's God's job or responsibility to keep babies from dying of starvation? Where does it say that he should keep "good people' from suffering? Where is "God's will" spelled out? It's nowhere. These things are the nature of the world and existence... "**** happens". So with this defense of God why am I not a Christian anymore? Well, the reasons are far more than this.

 

[Jainarayan]

I personally think he should intervene in every case of suffering, since He is God.

Why? What does being God have to do with it? Again, where is it stated he should do these things? You said "I personally think" but God, no form, image or view of him we have is obligated to answer to what we think. That kind of thinking is what causes the suffering., mental confusion and spiritual conflict.

 

[Colt]

For the sake of this thread, let's suppose some form of Abraham's God is really real and the theistic religion has the facts right. I'm gonna go with Christianity, as that's what I'm most familiar with.

Christians say that you need God's forgiveness because we are filthy sinners. Luckily, Jesus died so His Father would not look at us without disgust.

But I ask you... Do you forgive Jesus and His Father? I don't.

Look at all the suffering. Look at the genocides that the Father ordered the Israelites to carry out in Cannan! He openly ordered murder of people who broke a seemingly artificial moral law book. He flooded the earth and all the animals in it. Reading the Bible, it seems to me that God puts us through unnecessary misery, as He brags about His omnipotence.

So... no! I don't forgive God. I balk at the idea that Yahweh is demanding that I seek forgiveness from Him! My mother held her faith that Jesus would cure her cancer all the way to the very end... Do I forgive Jesus for allowing me to watch my mother die as a babe? No! Though, some would argue it was good because it built my character...

So, hypothetically, if an Abrahamic God is real, do you forgive Him?

We are forgiven as we forgive, even for an erroneous conception of God such as the God depicted by the Israelites.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Well, doctors aren't god. Jesus is a miracle healer, right?

I don't know this for certain. Do you?

If he is really the son of god, I personally think he should intervene in every case of suffering, since He is God. So I'm holding god and man to different standards.

I've made my position in suffering quite clear a number of times on this forum. People bring their own suffering. Not disease, not any god.

 

[Koldo]

Why? What does being God have to do with it? Again, where is it stated he should do these things? You said "I personally think" but God, no form, image or view of him we have is obligated to answer to what we think. That kind of thinking is what causes the suffering., mental confusion and spiritual conflict.

To say anyone should do anything (as in a moral obligation) involves certain premises, which if rejected or dismissed entail there is absolutely no 'should' ever.

 

[an anarchist]

I've made my position in suffering quite clear a number of times on this forum. People bring their own suffering. Not disease, not any god.

I think we happen to be partially in agreement. I do believe in the end it is man who is responsible as well. I don't believe in the Abrahamic God btw if that isn't obvious, I know u know that tho.

 

[Brian2]

This attitude - calling evil and suffering "good" in a vain attempt to protect God's image - is one of the worst things about Abrahamic religion, IMO.

I did not do that and also the Abrahamic God does not do that.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

If the Abrahamic God exists, then I see no reason to forgive him for allowing me to endure years of abuse and neglect (as well as years of bullying and harassment at school) while I was growing up, despite my sincere faith in him and countless prayers to him pleading with him to protect me. I've also endured years of depression and other emotional turmoil due to the PTSD I developed as a result of the abuse and trauma I endured while growing up.

Again, I was naive enough to have faith in God and hope that he would help me deal with the emotional turmoil I was experiencing, but I endured it all without God and ultimately learned to help myself without relying on him. I eventually learned that I don't need to depend on him in order to experience emotional healing and to feel real peace and contentment in my life. I've learned that I'm much better off without believing in and having faith in God.