Do you forgive (the Abrahamic) God?

[an anarchist]

The connection between Abrahamic religions is not 'God'. They may have Abraham in common but not God in common. This is something that many would like to change and would like all to have one God; but they don't. Saying it is so doesn't make it so. Abraham preaches peace and denounces kidnapping, and that is why he is a central figure. God is not why he is the central figure. As evidence: 'Abrahamic' is strictly a classification for a large group of religions that have no theological connection to one another. If they had God in common then that would be the basis of the classification. They don't, and it isn't.

There is no 'The Abrahamic God' in my opinion. It is like saying 'The fur of frogs'. Its a phrase full of words that don't make sense together, implying an untruth to those who are unaware frogs have no fur. The Abrahamics do not share a common vision of God. It is a difference not a similarity among them.

Similarly one cannot forgive 'The Abrahamic God'. First they'd have to have a common God.

I shall choose a specific one next time if I choose to run another thought experiment on a similar topic and it's fitting.

 

[Koldo]

Who wouldn't want a peaceful life? Why isn't it worth sacrificing hate for?

This comes down to the individual.

Let me put it this way: I want to feel very sad when my loved ones die. I want to feel lots of joy when I achieve what I want. I want to feel lots of hatred and anger when someone betrays me. I am not willing to sacrifice any of that to achieve peace, because feeling always peaceful would entail feeling dettached from the emotions that make me feel alive.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

This comes down to the individual.

Let me put it this way: I want to feel very sad when my loved ones die. I want to feel lots of joy when I achieve what I want. I want to feel lots of hatred and anger when someone betrays me. I am not willing to sacrifice any of that to achieve peace, because feeling always peaceful would entail feeling dettached from the emotions that make me feel alive.

That makes sense, but I was definitely not suggesting one should be detached from their emotions. I was asking what good it is to be angry at life.

 

[Balthazzar]

For the sake of this thread, let's suppose some form of Abraham's God is really real and the theistic religion has the facts right. I'm gonna go with Christianity, as that's what I'm most familiar with.

Christians say that you need God's forgiveness because we are filthy sinners. Luckily, Jesus died so His Father would not look at us without disgust.

But I ask you... Do you forgive Jesus and His Father? I don't.

Look at all the suffering. Look at the genocides that the Father ordered the Israelites to carry out in Cannan! He openly ordered murder of people who broke a seemingly artificial moral law book. He flooded the earth and all the animals in it. Reading the Bible, it seems to me that God puts us through unnecessary misery, as He brags about His omnipotence.

So... no! I don't forgive God. I balk at the idea that Yahweh is demanding that I seek forgiveness from Him! My mother held her faith that Jesus would cure her cancer all the way to the very end... Do I forgive Jesus for allowing me to watch my mother die as a babe? No! Though, some would argue it was good because it built my character...

So, hypothetically, if an Abrahamic God is real, do you forgive Him?

So, hypothetically speaking if the Abrahamic God doesn't exist, would you still be so unforgiving given the way life has been turning out? If not, who is there to blame for the calamity endured? If there is no need, then why would there be a need to forgive the Abrahamic God? I have no need to forgive the Abrahamic God, but I may have need to forgive others, although sometimes I'll justify my hostility due to life being, or at least seeming to be, so unjust.

 

[an anarchist]

So, hypothetically speaking if the Abrahamic God doesn't exist, would you still be so unforgiving given the way life has been turning out?

I absolutely am absolutely unforgiving to those I perceive responsible for the state of the universe...

I don't blame statists for being statists... Those who are making sure each generation is a new generation of statists for a sinister purpose... No forgiveness.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Every child comes into the world innocent and fragile in faith. And every one of these children has paradise ripped away from them by God both gradually and sometimes suddenly, shattering their heart and soul.

This is unforgivable. I have come into being to seek justice on behalf of the wounded child. I was willing to get my hands dirty and sacrifice my self image in order to serve this purpose.

In order for me to come into being, God was willing to sacrifice his own image. He was willing to be condemned to death in my eyes. For that, I give him lasting respect.

So many people can say that they do not forgive the Father or the Son, but they are unwilling to seek justice on behalf of the shattered child because they refuse to tarnish their self image. They are protective of the idea that they are good, so they are unwilling to do what is required.

I do not condemn them in the same way I condemn the Father, but I have trouble respecting them the way I respect the one who sacrificed so much for me to come into life.

 

[Brian2]

If God can keep on forgiving me then I can forgive God.

 

[Koldo]

That makes sense, but I was definitely not suggesting one should be detached from their emotions. I was asking what good it is to be angry at life.

If feelings are an end in themselves and not a mean to an end, why would you ask this?

This sounds as if you were asking me something akin to: Since feeling angry at life doesn't serve the goal of feeling peaceful, what is the point of feeling angry at life?

But this question treats feeling angry at life as a mean to an end (feeling peaceful).

So my answer to your question is: Since feeling angry at anything is an end in itself, the good of being angry at life is that you experience the end of being angry at life.

 

[Brian2]

Weeping (sadness) and gnashing of teeth (anger) are not the best feeling experiences to have.

 

[Balthazzar]

Every child comes into the world innocent and fragile in faith. And every one of these children has paradise ripped away from them by God both gradually and sometimes suddenly, shattering their heart and soul.

This is unforgivable. I have come into being to seek justice on behalf of the wounded child. I was willing to get my hands dirty and sacrifice my self image in order to serve this purpose.

In order for me to come into being, God was willing to sacrifice his own image. He was willing to be condemned to death in my eyes. For that, I give him lasting respect.

So many people can say that they do not forgive the Father or the Son, but they are unwilling to seek justice on behalf of the shattered child because they refuse to tarnish their self image. They are protective of the idea that they are good, so they are unwilling to do what is required.

I do not condemn them in the same way I condemn the Father, but I have trouble respecting them the way I respect the one who sacrificed so much for me to come into life.

I view these things a little differently than some. Growing up, I spent a lot of time with my family, namely my mother. I grew up and left home, after which I got married, and created a family of my own. I think we sacrifice a part of ourselves when we bring children into this world. Yes, we know life is difficult sometimes and we know that our children are going to face some difficulty, but we bring them in to our lives, then we let them go out to make lives of their own. That's life and it's also the sacrifice that I understand. It isn't an easy thing for many of us, but then for others who understand better than myself, it is very likely viewed with great respect and acceptance. It just isn't always easy to watch our kids face trying times. Life and death and all that comes between our time to contribute and increase whatever it is we choose to increase in this world.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

If feelings are an end in themselves and not a mean to an end, why would you ask this?

This sounds as if you were asking me something akin to: Since feeling angry at life doesn't serve the goal of feeling peaceful, what is the point of feeling angry at life?

But this question treats feeling angry at life as a mean to an end (feeling peaceful).

So my answer to your question is: Since feeling angry at anything is an end in itself, the good of being angry at life is that you experience the end of being angry at life.

Anger at life can lead to nihilism and pessimism, among other things, which are both unhealthy and lead to suffering.

 

[syo]

Haha! If Christianity was real. I'm glad it's fake.

 

[idea]

I don't know this for certain. Do you?


I've made my position in suffering quite clear a number of times on this forum. People bring their own suffering. Not disease, not any god.

The fundamental attribution error, to blame individuals rather than their environment, their circumstances.

 

[idea]

Haha! If Christianity was real. I'm glad it's fake.

Yes. It's a much healthier mindset to ser it all as the laws of nature, rather than a biased racist God who chooses and loves some, and hates others.

 

[Balthazzar]

Weeping (sadness) and gnashing of teeth (anger) are not the best feeling experiences to have.

Some of this and some of that all here on earth as we make our way under the light of the sun. I agree with you - The question becomes when is it appropriate to apply unforgiveness? Persistence a virtue and a vice, and patience no less the same.

 

[Balthazzar]

Haha! If Christianity was real. I'm glad it's fake.

What's fake about it?

 

[Balthazzar]

The fundamental attribution error, to blame individuals rather than their environment, their circumstances.

Well, we are required to acknowledge faulty parties and to make efforts to reconcile transgressions. This is needed in order to accommodate the needs of those who are repeatedly being are transgressed against, and sometimes repeated offenses are not required to do so.

 

[SalixIncendium]

The fundamental attribution error, to blame individuals rather than their environment, their circumstances.

Blame?

 

[Koldo]

Anger at life can lead to nihilism and pessimism, among other things, which are both unhealthy and lead to suffering.

Or it can give purpose and energy.
But what if it leads to pessimism and nihilism? What if it is unhealthy and leads to suffering?
Would you rather feel numb when facing a tragedy? I wouldn't, I would rather suffer.

 

[syo]

What's fake about it?

That Jesus is an historical figure.