Do you get smart when you die?

[Pegg]

It reminds me of a question I would like to ask many Christians, would a baby with anencephaly (born without a brain) who dies soon after birth be granted the brains of a university professor or better in the afterlife?

the hope for that child is that God will resurrect them with a full brain in the paradise spoken of by Jesus.

 

[St Giordano Bruno]

the hope for that child is that God will resurrect them with a full brain in the paradise spoken of by Jesus.

Well according to that doctrine that child had an easy ticket to heaven didn’t it, doesn't seem all that fair for the rest of us IMHO. Why would such a "just" God fast track some people to heaven and others have to get there the hard way? Like for instance being born to non Christian or atheist parents. Why did he let people ever live a life on this earth without ever hearing of the word Jesus?

 

[Pegg]

Well according to that doctrine that child had an easy ticket to heaven didn’t it, doesn't seem all that fair for the rest of us IMHO. Why would such a "just" God fast track some people to heaven and others have to get there the hard way? Like for instance being born to non Christian or atheist parents. Why did he let people ever live a life on this earth without ever hearing of the word Jesus?

the child didnt go to heaven...people dont go to heaven when they die...they go back to the dust
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

According to Jesus words, people will be judged by how they respond to the Good news of the kingdom and how they treat the spiritual brothers of Christ. Matthew 25:31-40 “Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world. For I became hungry and you gave me something to eat; I got thirsty and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and you received me hospitably; ....‘Truly I say to you, To the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’”

We dont know how God will judge those who never hear the message of the good news or dont get the opportunity to respond in this world. But we do know that God is merciful and kind and whatever judgment he makes on them will be the right one.

 

[james2ko]

Except for those of Matthew 12v32; Hebrews 6vs4-6, the rest will be resurrected. - Acts 24v15; Romans 6v7

Please notice Rev 20v10; 21v8 because the eternal torment is: second death or death with no resurrection. Second death or destruction.- Heb 2v14 B.
Or as Jeremiah [51v57] says a perpetual sleep and not wake up.

Please also notice Matthew 18 vs30,34 because jailers were referred to as tormentors. Both at Matthew and Revelation use the word 'torment' not the word 'torture'. In the first century a jailer was called a tormentor, not a torturer because just being confined in jail was the torment.

So Satan and the goat-like ones [Matt 25v32] destroyed can not escape being confined to second death.

It appears the text in Rev 20 describes three resurrections, no?

 

[james2ko]

the child didnt go to heaven...people dont go to heaven when they die...they go back to the dust
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

According to Jesus words, people will be judged by how they respond to the Good news of the kingdom and how they treat the spiritual brothers of Christ. Matthew 25:31-40 “Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world. For I became hungry and you gave me something to eat; I got thirsty and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and you received me hospitably; ....‘Truly I say to you, To the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’”

We dont know how God will judge those who never hear the message of the good news or dont get the opportunity to respond in this world. But we do know that God is merciful and kind and whatever judgment he makes on them will be the right one.

But the bible does reveal what happens to these people as well as every other human who died in ignorance of the only name under heaven by which men may be saved (Acts 4:12). These are the "rest of the dead" that will be resurrected after the millenium mentioned in Rev 20:5! The resurrection is described in vs 11-12.

They will be given their first, fair opportunity at salvation. God will judge them based on how well they obey the teachings of the "book" [bible] (Rev 20:12). They will be granted a 100 yr period (Isa 65:20) to repent and accept or reject Christ, who will be ruling when this event, commonly known as the Great White Throne Judgment Period, occurs.

 

[Dezzie]

Well... if there IS an Afterlife, I'd think that you would stay the same as you were on Earth. You'd just be a spirit living on a different realm. If there is no afterlife, well... I think we can understand what happens then.

 

[David69]

But the bible does reveal what happens to these people as well as every other human who died in ignorance of the only name under heaven by which men may be saved (Acts 4:12). These are the "rest of the dead" that will be resurrected after the millenium mentioned in Rev 20:5! The resurrection is described in vs 11-12.

They will be given their first, fair opportunity at salvation. God will judge them based on how well they obey the teachings of the "book" [bible] (Rev 20:12). They will be granted a 100 yr period (Isa 65:20) to repent and accept or reject Christ, who will be ruling when this event, commonly known as the Great White Throne Judgment Period, occurs.

what about the billions of people that dont know or do any book??

 

[james2ko]

what about the billions of people that dont know or do any book??

Christ will give, even you, David, every bit of 100 yrs to change your mind (Isa 65:20) If you do not, you will be denied eternal life and be cast alive into the lake of fire along with those that come up in the 3rd and final resurrection, and will become ashes under the soles of the righteous feet (Malachi 4:3). Hence, your existence will forever be erased from the annals of history (Rev 20:13-14).

 

[QuestionMark]

Pegg,
If the dead are conscious of nothing then how is the last verse of Ecclesiastes true?

More importantly, do you think Jesus was lying when he talked about hell?

- Darkness
- Torment
- Weeping and gnashing of teeth
- Fire

Who experiences these things while they are unconscious, and why would anyone warn someone of unconsciousness?

Looking forward to your reply,
QM

 

[Pegg]

But the bible does reveal what happens to these people as well as every other human who died in ignorance of the only name under heaven by which men may be saved (Acts 4:12). These are the "rest of the dead" that will be resurrected after the millenium mentioned in Rev 20:5! The resurrection is described in vs 11-12.

They will be given their first, fair opportunity at salvation. God will judge them based on how well they obey the teachings of the "book" [bible] (Rev 20:12). They will be granted a 100 yr period (Isa 65:20) to repent and accept or reject Christ, who will be ruling when this event, commonly known as the Great White Throne Judgment Period, occurs.

the question was not about people who die before hearing the message....it was about those who are ALIVE and NEVER hear the message.

 

[james2ko]

the question was not about people who die before hearing the message....it was about those who are ALIVE and NEVER hear the message.

Yes I know..

 

[Pegg]

Pegg,
If the dead are conscious of nothing then how is the last verse of Ecclesiastes true?

I thought I had already answered that. It doesnt apply to the dead... as I said, their sins are all forgiven and when they are resurrected their judgement will be based on what they do from that point on.

"For the [true] God himself will bring every sort of work into the judgment in relation to every hidden thing, as to whether it is good or bad"

this verse applies only to the living

More importantly, do you think Jesus was lying when he talked about hell?

- Darkness
- Torment
- Weeping and gnashing of teeth
- Fire

Who experiences these things while they are unconscious, and why would anyone warn someone of unconsciousness?

Looking forward to your reply,
QM

the only lie is from those who teach that these things are to be taken literally. Jesus was not speaking literally when he said that the wicked will be in 'darkness' or in 'torment' etc.
Obviously, the dead do not feel torment nor heat nor flame nor see darkness because the bible tells us that the dead are not conscious of ANYTHING.

So we have to look at the context of Jesus words and find out what he means rather then assume he is speaking literally.

 

[Pegg]

Yes I know..

we understand this a little differently from yourself then because we believe they will be resurrected 'during' the 1,000 year rule of Christ.

This is straight from our commentary on Revelation:

The Rest of the Dead

14 Whom, though, will these kings judge if, as the apostle John here inserts, “(the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended)”? (Revelation 20:5a) Again, the expression “come to life” has to be understood according to context. This expression can have varying meanings in varying circumstances. For example, Paul said of his anointed fellow Christians: “It is you God made alive though you were dead in your trespasses and sins.” (Ephesians 2:1) Yes, spirit-anointed Christians were “made alive,” even in the first century, being declared righteous on the basis of their faith in Jesus’ sacrifice.—Romans 3:23, 24.

15 Similarly, pre-Christian witnesses of Jehovah were declared righteous as to friendship with God; and Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were spoken of as “living” even though they were physically dead. (Matthew 22:31, 32; James 2:21, 23) However, they and all others who are resurrected, as well as the great crowd of faithful other sheep who survive Armageddon and any children that may be born to these in the new world, must yet be raised to human perfection. This will be accomplished by Christ and his associate kings and priests during the thousand-year Judgment Day, on the basis of Jesus’ ransom sacrifice. By the end of that Day, “the rest of the dead” will have “come to life” in the sense that they will be perfect humans. As we shall see, they must then pass a final test, but they will face that test as perfected humans. When they pass the test, God will declare them worthy of living forever, righteous in the fullest sense. They will experience the complete fulfillment of the promise: “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.” (Psalm 37:29) What a delightful future is in store for obedient mankind!

 

[james2ko]

This is straight from our commentary on Revelation:

The Rest of the Dead

14 Whom, though, will these kings judge if, as the apostle John here inserts, “(the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended)”? (Revelation 20:5a) Again, the expression “come to life” has to be understood according to context. This expression can have varying meanings in varying circumstances. For example, Paul said of his anointed fellow Christians: “It is you God made alive though you were dead in your trespasses and sins.” (Ephesians 2:1) Yes, spirit-anointed Christians were “made alive,” even in the first century, being declared righteous on the basis of their faith in Jesus’ sacrifice.—Romans 3:23, 24.

Where did "it is you God made alive" come from? It's missing from the original Greek:

Eph 2:1 και G2532[AND] υμας G5209[YOU] οντας G5607(5752)[BEING] νεκρους G3498 τοις G3588[DEAD] παραπτωμασιν G3900[IN OFFENCES] και G2532 ταις G3588[AND] αμαρτιαις G266[SINS,]

By the end of that Day, “the rest of the dead” will have “come to life” in the sense that they will be perfect humans. As we shall see, they must then pass a final test, but they will face that test as perfected humans. When they pass the test, God will declare them worthy of living forever, righteous in the fullest sense. They will experience the complete fulfillment of the promise: “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.” (Psalm 37:29) What a delightful future is in store for obedient mankind![/I][/COLOR]

The Greek uses the prepositional/conjunctional phrase "until" or "till" the thousand years were completed. Not "by" the end of the 1000 years or "prophetic" day.

Rev 20:5 οι G3588 δε G1161[BUT THE] λοιποι G3062[REST] των G3588[OF THE] νεκρων G3498[DEAD] ουκ G3756[NOT] ανεζησαν G326(5656)[LIVED AGAIN] εως G2193[TILL] τελεσθη G5055(5686)[MAY HAVE COMPLETED] τα G3588[THE] χιλια G5507[THOUSAND] ετη G2094[YEARS.] αυτη G3778[THIS "IS"] η G3588[THE] αναστασις G386[RESURRECTION] η G3588[THE] πρωτη G4413[FIRST.]

we understand this a little differently from yourself then because we believe they will be resurrected 'during' the 1,000 year rule of Christ.

I can see why

 

[QuestionMark]

Pegg,
The largest problem with saying that Jesus wasn't really speaking of the dead is that it means he wasn't serious about the resurrection of the righteous either. The resurrection of the dead in the last age obviously isn't for those who are alive, otherwise it wouldn't be a resurrection.

Do you see how this is seriously problematic?

If you say there is no hell, you're saying there is no final judgment, which means no final resurrection, which means no eternal life.

Do you not believe in eternal life? Do you not believe that Christ was raised from the dead? If Christ was not raised from the dead Paul says that we are to be pitied more than all men, because we have trusted in vain!

Looking forward to your reply,
QM

 

[Pegg]

Where did "it is you God made alive" come from? It's missing from the original Greek:

Eph 2:1 και G2532[AND] υμας G5209[YOU] οντας G5607(5752)[BEING] νεκρους G3498 τοις G3588[DEAD] παραπτωμασιν G3900[IN OFFENCES] και G2532 ταις G3588[AND] αμαρτιαις G266[SINS,]

I understand that the translation is made in this way to show more clearly the context...Paul said a similar thing at Colossians 2:13. 13 Furthermore, though YOU were dead in YOUR trespasses and in the uncircumcised state of YOUR flesh, [God] made YOU alive together with him. He kindly forgave us all our trespasses

the idea is that before their conversion to christianity, they were 'dead' in trespasses....but God makes them alive through faith in christ.
In Ephesians the translators added in 'made us alive' at the beginning of the verse to set the context. If you continue to read to verse 5 you'll see the same phrase there.
Furthermore, [it is] YOU [God made alive] though YOU were dead in YOUR trespasses and sins, 2 in which YOU at one time walked according to the system of things of this world,... 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love with which he loved us, 5 made us alive together with the Christ even when we were dead in trespasses—by undeserved kindness YOU have been saved

The Greek uses the prepositional/conjunctional phrase "until" or "till" the thousand years were completed. Not "by" the end of the 1000 years or "prophetic" day.

Rev 20:5 οι G3588 δε G1161[BUT THE] λοιποι G3062[REST] των G3588[OF THE] νεκρων G3498[DEAD] ουκ G3756[NOT] ανεζησαν G326(5656)[LIVED AGAIN] εως G2193[TILL] τελεσθη G5055(5686)[MAY HAVE COMPLETED] τα G3588[THE] χιλια G5507[THOUSAND] ετη G2094[YEARS.] αυτη G3778[THIS "IS"] η G3588[THE] αναστασις G386[RESURRECTION] η G3588[THE] πρωτη G4413[FIRST.]
I can see why

do you think its logical that for 1,000 years, Christ rules...then for 100 years all the people of earth are resurrected and given their opportunity? It just doesnt fit in with the grand picture.
Who will be christ be ruling for 1,000 years if its not these resurrected ones? Or does he just sit around for 1,000 years waiting for the billions of people to be resurrected, then spend 100 years teaching them Gods way...
The time frames just dont make sense.

this is why the commentary i posted shows that 'coming to life' does not necessarily mean 'literally' but it is symbolic of being viewed as worthy of life by God. He viewed Abraham alive even though Abraham had been dead for centuries... and the disciples were said to be made 'alive' even though they were already literally alive.
So it is with this verse... they are trully alive when the 1,000 years are ended because they would have recieved their judgment and been granted eternal life. Eternal life is the 'real' life... until we have eternal life, then in Gods eyes we are only half alive.

 

[Pegg]

Pegg,
The largest problem with saying that Jesus wasn't really speaking of the dead is that it means he wasn't serious about the resurrection of the righteous either. The resurrection of the dead in the last age obviously isn't for those who are alive, otherwise it wouldn't be a resurrection.

there are two types of 'dead' in the bible
the spiritually dead...these are people who are alive but are nto spiritually alive. They are the ones jesus spoke of when he said 'let the dead bury their dead'

Then there are the literal 'dead'
these are all people who have literally died and are buried. They will recieve a resurrection as Jesus promised.

John 5:28-29 Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.”

and to the unfaithful people in the cities of Chorazin and Bethsaida Jesus implies that the pagan nations of Tyre and Sidon will be resurrected in the judgement day
Matt 11:21 “Woe to you, Cho‧ra′zin! Woe to you, Beth‧sa′i‧da! because if the powerful works had taken place in Tyre and Si′don that took place in YOU, they would long ago have repented in sackcloth and ashes. 22 Consequently I say to YOU, It will be more endurable for Tyre and Si′don on Judgment Day than for YOU.

and to the thief who was soon to die on the stake, Jesus made the promise
“You will be with me in Paradise,”

So we have to know which 'dead' we are speaking about in the context of the scriptures.

If you say there is no hell, you're saying there is no final judgment, which means no final resurrection, which means no eternal life.

no. Im not saying there is no hell. Im saying that hell is not a place where people are tormented and exist consciously. Hell is nothing more then the common grave. Its from the grave that people will come out of... out of hell... out of the grave.

Do you not believe in eternal life? Do you not believe that Christ was raised from the dead? If Christ was not raised from the dead Paul says that we are to be pitied more than all men, because we have trusted in vain!

Looking forward to your reply,
QM

If you read the KJV you'll know that Jesus went to hell for 3 days. It was from hell that he was lifted out of by God. I do believe in eternal life, but i beleive it will be us here on earth living eternally in our physical bodies... not as spirits in heaven.

So the resurrection I speak of is to be here on earth... in physical bodies. It is only a small few who are chosen to be among the first resurrection which is the resurrection in spiritual bodies to heaven....the rest of mankind will live on earth under christs rule.

 

[QuestionMark]

Pegg,
I also believe that the resurrection of the dead is to physical bodies on earth, and I'm glad we can agree on that. But for my benefit (because this is how I learn) I'm trying to understand your teaching.

You're saying in one breath that those who are spiritually dead will not be resurrected, and in the next breath you agree with John 5 saying "Those who practice vile things to a resurrection of judgment".

Will the wicked be resurrected or not? You're confusing me.

Looking forward to your reply,
QM

 

[Sententia]

IMHO a new born baby who dies two minutes after birth is failed attempt for the emergence of an individual conscious entity, because it is still part of a collective identity. Like I cannot remember a day before I turned the age of 2 years so if I died at the age of 2 days after birth I would be a non-entity as far as this person is concerned. You see I am a proponent of a weak anthropic principle which necessitates the existence of the self in one form or another, so if I died before I was 2 days old I still retain a collective identity in millions of other young developing brains.

Then the information processes that booted my sense of self into existence would be emulated within the confines of another baby's brain, which is randomly selected from the from the pre-existing collective identity in which I was co-conscious with millions of immature brains. As my new brain is randomly selected out of anthropic necessity It is not until that baby ultimately lives beyond 18 months of age I will begin to feel that baby is me. Later theory of mind will kick in at around 4 and I will begin to know I think independently of everyone else.

The thought of what happens after I die does not bother me, what bothers me the most is how I seemed to be in the first place in spite on the exponentially slim odds such as how my existence seemed to be so dependent on that one in 300 million sperm managed to fertilize the one in a million eggs. And the same rule also applies to each preceding generation, grandparents great grandparents, great great grandparents and so on. As though my very existence is like some kind of a paradox. Just simply existing out of anthropic necessity is a pretty neat way around that paradox, because it is not possible to be aware on any state of not existing even if those odds are exponentially greater.

As for how intelligent we become, I think that is up to just random chance because I am of the being you become just needs to be conscious and not necessarily intelligent. In fact I could become someone with a serious intellectual disability or just someone with average intelligence or less likely but possible, a genius from Mensa.

I am guessing pro-choice?

 

[McBell]

We dont know how God will judge those who never hear the message of the good news ...

I guess that depends entirely upon whether or not you think that everyone answers to the deity of the Bible.
If you do, then we do in fact know how they will be judged:

Matthew 7:1-2
`Judge not, that ye may not be judged,
for in what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged, and in what measure ye measure, it shall be measured to you.
​

If you do not believe that everyone answers to the deity of the Bible....