Do you have free will or not?

[TashaN]

This makes no sense, you're either free to choose or your life is predestined. If your life is predestined then your choice is not yours to make since it already been programmed for you.



This seems more reasonable, in other words God has an idea but does not know.

I myself don't believe in any of this stuff but I had an interesting debate with two coworkers (One Christian and the other was Muslim), they believed that they had free will but that God knew the outcome of their choices, which makes no sense.

Is this how you define predestination? or you have a different definition for it?

the belief that everything that will happen has already been decided by God or fate and cannot be changed.

If this is how you define it also, then i think you are confused between God deciding something and knowing something in advance.

 

[SuperScript22]

Is this how you define predestination? or you have a different definition for it?

the belief that everything that will happen has already been decided by God or fate and cannot be changed.

If this is how you define it also, then i think you are confused between God deciding something and knowing something in advance.

That is exactly the definition, and I'm not confused between deciding and knowing in this case because if you believe that God knows your future actions in advanced, that means it has already been decided what your actions will be. The only way you can get away from such conflict is if you believe that God does not know your future actions and you are in control of that. A religious friend of mine compared life to a test, I said that a test requires your teacher to mark it in the end to determine whether you passed or failed. If the teacher already decided whether you'll pass or fail before you even start, then it's not a test at all.

 

[TashaN]

That is exactly the definition, and I'm not confused between deciding and knowing in this case because if you believe that God knows your future actions in advanced, that means it has already been decided what your actions will be. The only way you can get away from such conflict is if you believe that God does not know your future actions and you are in control of that. A religious friend of mine compared life to a test, I said that a test requires your teacher to mark it in the end to determine whether you passed or failed. If the teacher already decided whether you'll pass or fail before you even start, then it's not a test at all.

Sorry but i honestly don't understand how knowing something in advance and controlling it are the same thing? can you elaborate please?

For me the way i understand it is like this, imagine you have a time machine so you went to the future and saw that Trump became the President of the US. Then you went back again to the present and saw everyone making campaigns and Donald Trump doing his best to win. Did you influence the actions that Trump has made during his journey to become the President in the next election or you were simply able to manipulate time to see the future?

P.S. I would like to add that we human beings see time as a straight line starting from the past to our present then toward the future but to God time doesn't work in that.

Are you familiar with the Theory of Relativity by Einstein regarding spacetime?

 

[SuperScript22]

Sorry but i honestly don't understand how knowing something in advance and controlling it are the same thing? can you elaborate please?

For me the way i understand it is like this, imagine you have a time machine so you went to the future and saw that Trump became the President of the US. Then you went back again to the present and saw everyone making campaigns and Donald Trump doing his best to win. Did you influence the actions that Trump has made during his journey to become the President in the next election or you were simply able to manipulate time to see the future?

P.S. I would like to add that we human beings see time as a straight line starting from the past to our present then toward the future but to God time doesn't work in that.

Are you familiar with the Theory of Relativity by Einstein regarding spacetime?

Going forward in time and seeing something happen is irrelevant to the subject if you believe that the outcome is fixed. In this thread only post #3 (Judaism) seems to make sense, the others fail.

 

[TashaN]

Going forward in time and seeing something happen is irrelevant to the subject if you believe that the outcome is fixed. In this thread only post #3 (Judaism) seems to make sense, the others fail.

You do realize we are talking about the same God, right? at least from the point of view of Muslims, God of Abraham is the God of Moses, Jesus, Mohamed and all prophets.

And by the way, where did i say that outcome is fixed? man decide the outcome whether to believe in God and go to heaven or to disbelieve and go to Hell.

 

[SuperScript22]

You do realize we are talking about the same God, right? at least from the point of view of Muslims, God of Abraham is the God of Moses, Jesus, Mohamed and all prophets.

You may have the same idea of God, but that does not mean the three religions are the same. That's irrelevant to the subject anyways.

And by the way, where did i say that outcome is fixed? man decide the outcome whether to believe in God and go to heaven or to disbelieve and go to Hell.

You did not say that the outcome is fixed, I'm saying that if you believe that God knows your future choices then the outcome is fixed based on that, which means it's already destined on what path in life you're going to take. The only way you can escape such conflict is if you believe that God does not know the choices you're going to make, only then will your argument make sense.

 

[TashaN]

You may have the same idea of God, but that does not mean the three religions are the same. That's irrelevant to the subject anyways.

You did not say that the outcome is fixed, I'm saying that if you believe that God knows your future choices then the outcome is fixed based on that, which means it's already destined on what path in life you're going to take. The only way you can escape such conflict is if you believe that God does not know the choices you're going to make, only then will your argument make sense.

You are sticking to a single argument based on something which i didn't say. Please try to understand what i'm actually talking about rather than focusing on what you are thinking about. It's not a black or white matter because God is not a human being.

God gave us a choice to do what we want, and he knows all the possible actions we are able to make. As a default, he controls the rules, not the game, unless he want to. That's why he said in the Quran:

And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve." (Quran 18:29)

Also ...

And say, "Do [as you will], for Allah will see your deeds, and [so, will] His Messenger and the believers. And you will be returned to the Knower of the unseen and the witnessed, and He will inform you of what you used to do...." (Quran 9:105)

As Muslims, we believe that we have a free choice to decide how to live in this life and there are angels who record every single thing we do then at the end based on our deed and mercy of God we can either enter heaven or hell. God already made the rules but didn't create our actions. He gave us the tools to build what we want with it. Do what you want to do, and you shall receive a result based on what you do.

That doesn't mean in anyway that God doesn't have the ability to control the actions of his creation in advance, because he already does, with angels, but with us, he gave us freedom of actions to see what we are going to do with it.

I hope it's clear now.

 

[SuperScript22]

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No worries, I'm new here so I was unaware of the DIR sections. Would a mod please be kind enough to move this to the debate section since it's heading that way?

 

[SuperScript22]

You are sticking to a single argument based on something which i didn't say. Please try to understand what i'm actually talking about rather than focusing on what you are thinking about. It's not a black or white matter because God is not a human being.

God gave us a choice to do what we want, and he knows all the possible actions we are able to make. As a default, he controls the rules, not the game, unless he want to. That's why he said in the Quran:

And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve." (Quran 18:29)

Also ...

And say, "Do [as you will], for Allah will see your deeds, and [so, will] His Messenger and the believers. And you will be returned to the Knower of the unseen and the witnessed, and He will inform you of what you used to do...." (Quran 9:105)

As Muslims, we believe that we have a free choice to decide how to live in this life and there are angels who record every single thing we do then at the end based on our deed and mercy of God we can either enter heaven or hell. God already made the rules but didn't create our actions. He gave us the tools to build what we want with it. Do what you want to do, and you shall receive a result based on what you do.

That doesn't mean in anyway that God doesn't have the ability to control the actions of his creation in advance, because he already does, with angels, but with us, he gave us freedom of actions to see what we are going to do with it.

I hope it's clear now.

It's only clear if God does not know your future actions, other than that it's a conflict.

 

[Quintessence]

No worries, I'm new here so I was unaware of the DIR sections. Would a mod please be kind enough to move this to the debate section since it's heading that way?

Since it's your thread, I went ahead and moved it. I'll delete my mod post.
As one who is neither a Jew, Christian, or Muslim... 'fraid I won't be participating though.

 

[SuperScript22]

Since it's your thread, I went ahead and moved it. I'll delete my mod post.
As one who is neither a Jew, Christian, or Muslim... 'fraid I won't be participating though.

Thank you Quintessence, I appreciate the help. I'll make sure to read the rules carefully next time

 

[ether-ore]

Here's a question to Jews, Christians, and Muslims. Do you believe you have a free will or do you believe that your life is already predestined?

Also further on that question, do you believe God already knows the outcome of your choices.

I believe I have free will. No, I do not believe my life is predestined. And, yes, I believe that God knows the outcomes of my choices. I must hasten to add that I do not believe that God's foreknowledge has anything to do with causation. For example, let us say that another person knows what I will do tomorrow and what the outcome will be. That person knowing such information is not the cause of my action. I am still solely responsible for my actions.

For me, a question naturally follows. Why are we here? For justice to be justice, it must be proven to us what we would do. But we are also here to learn how to govern these bodies according to God's commandments. Justice will have its claim over broken laws unless repentance enables mercy.

 

[allfoak]

Free will and predestination......
We are all on the journey from the alpha to the omega.
We are all headed for the same goal, yet all are free to get there any way they please.

It is a journey through eternity, which begs the question: What is it that we are free to choose or what is it that we are predestined for?
Free will and predestination are both correct and they are both wrong.

 

[rusra02]

Here's a question to Jews, Christians, and Muslims. Do you believe you have a free will or do you believe that your life is already predestined?

Also further on that question, do you believe God already knows the outcome of your choices.

Yes,each person can choose the course they will follow. As Revelation 22:17 invites: "let anyone who wishes take life’s water free." Thus, no one is excluded from everlasting life. It is their choice to accept it or reject it.
Can God foreknow our future? Yes, but I believe he chooses not to. He is not forced to foreknow our future, and dignifies us with the ability to choose what we will do. An owner of a newspaper can choose to read the news but he is not forced to read everything in his paper.

 

[viole]

Yes,each person can choose the course they will follow. As Revelation 22:17 invites: "let anyone who wishes take life’s water free." Thus, no one is excluded from everlasting life. It is their choice to accept it or reject it.
Can God foreknow our future? Yes, but I believe he chooses not to. He is not forced to foreknow our future, and dignifies us with the ability to choose what we will do. An owner of a newspaper can choose to read the news but he is not forced to read everything in his paper.

If He decided not to foretell the future, what are the chances that any of His prophecies will turn true?

Ciao

- viole

 

[rusra02]

If He decided not to foretell the future, what are the chances that any of His prophecies will turn true?

Ciao

- viole

I don't understand your question. But I do know that once Jehovah says what he will do, nothing can prevent that word from coming true. (Isaiah 46:10)

 

[Revoltingest]

I believe that I have free will.
But do I have any choice in this?
Am I predestined to believe in it, when in fact it's an illusion?

We need a precise definition of "free will", such that it can be tested.

 

[Smart_Guy]

We need a precise definition of "free will", such that it can be tested.

Good thinking. I always thought that the will and the choice are heavily connected with content not whither the outcome is fixed, and that they don't define the outcome since no matter what we do we can't always control the surroundings.
What do you think? I mean in this regard, not my green thumb up!

 

[Revoltingest]

Good thinking. I always thought that the will and the choice are heavily connected with content not whither the outcome is fixed, and that they don't define the outcome since no matter what we do we can't always control the surroundings.
What do you think? I mean in this regard, not my green thumb up!

Uhhuuuuuuhhh......

 

[Smart_Guy]

Uhhuuuuuuhhh......

Ah... never mind