Rakhel
Well-Known Member
In other words, two Jews, three answers.
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Do you have questions about Traditional Judaism?
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In other words, two Jews, three answers.
Dena
Active Member
Christians have a saying "God is good, all the time" which I have found confusing. They really mean is everything that happens is according to God's plan and that is good. Which let's be realistic...probably isn't true. So I don't know. Perhaps the view that God isn't 100% good is more close to the truth. It all baffles my mind and I'll admit I don't particularly like to think about it.
Levite
Higher and Higher
The notion that God is not 100% good is unsettling. It makes for a potentially dangerous universe to live in. I can well understand how it might be difficult to think about, because it took me a long time to be comfortable enough thinking about it to decide I believed it was true. But I think in the end it solves more problems, theologically, than it creates. And I like it for its complexity, and maybe even a bit (perversely) for its failure to be perfectly aesthetically or emotionally satisfying. What in life is perfectly aesthetically and emotionally satisfying? Nothing. Why should I believe that God would be different? If anything this concept seems to make it all too clear how much the universe and our lives in it are truly God's creations.
Always!
Ah, but what is 'good'? A child thinks things are good for them that their parent obviously does not. Then there is the greater good, if something benefits a large number of people at the expense of a few, is the scales tipped to 'good' ? For the Jew, this can get quite scary, I do admit.
I made a thread on this a while back:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/theological-concepts/87856-everything-g-d-does-good.html
The concept of every Jew being held to 613 mitzvot is a misunderstanding. Some apply only to men, some only to women, some only to firstborn males, some only to cohenim, and some to a group as a whole(not an individual). There is absolutely no way for one person to fulfill every mitzvah, and that isn't a problem. Some of them are for every person, others are for certain individuals or the group collectively. To better understand this, I suggest you read through the 613.
Levite
Higher and Higher
^^^ Right, very much so, for both what yosi and Zardoz said.
Not only are not all 613 possible for any single individual to fulfill, even the ones that a modern, average Jew could fulfill in theory add up to more than it is likely that anyone will fulfill, no matter how hard they are trying.
One does one's best. One tries to hit everything one can, but a certain amount of prioritizing has to be done, and one needs to have a certain amount of flexibility with the process. And one can't be afraid to follow in the steps of the philosopher Franz Rosenzweig, who, when asked about a certain practice he didn't follow, would always say, "I do not observe that...yet."
It's a process: a discipline one advances through during one's life. Or perhaps (and IMO, more likely) lives.
Not only are not all 613 possible for any single individual to fulfill, even the ones that a modern, average Jew could fulfill in theory add up to more than it is likely that anyone will fulfill, no matter how hard they are trying.
One does one's best. One tries to hit everything one can, but a certain amount of prioritizing has to be done, and one needs to have a certain amount of flexibility with the process. And one can't be afraid to follow in the steps of the philosopher Franz Rosenzweig, who, when asked about a certain practice he didn't follow, would always say, "I do not observe that...yet."
It's a process: a discipline one advances through during one's life. Or perhaps (and IMO, more likely) lives.
Levite
Higher and Higher
Thanks for the answers. So it is more a balance of doing one's best and striving to do good, than trying to fulfill all of those possible. . Thanks.
Yeah, although obviously one ought to strive to fulfill the most mitzvot one can, within the parameters we described above....
Levite
Higher and Higher
The commandments in the Torah were given to the Jewish People, for the Jewish People.
If we were to use Jewish traditional language, we might say that the mitzvot termed the "Seven Mitzvot for the Children of Noah" illustrate behavior favorable to God for incorporation into non-Jewish society, but I certainly don't think-- and I think many Jewish authorities also did not literally think-- that the Seven Noahide Mitzvot are literal, and represent actual commandments by God to non-Jews. I think God can take care of letting non-Jews know what He wants from them without our help, or recourse to our Torah. Mostly, judging from what we are taught that God wants, it seems like he wants people to treat one another well, and for the helpless to be helped, and the impoverished to be looked after. Everything else appears to be icing on the cake.
I think non-Jews need not look to Judaism for methods of relating to God: their own methods usually seem to be just fine for them.
As for Torah study, the best advice that I could give was actually given in Pirkei Avot (the wisdom literature of the Rabbis of the Talmud): "Ben Bag-Bag used to say [of the Torah], 'Analyze it, and analyze it again, for everything can be found within it. Grow old and grey with it, holding fast to it, and do not turn aside from it, for there is no finer measure [of wisdom and ethical teaching] than it." In other words, study Torah: ask questions of the text fearlessly, and never be afraid to probe it, nor think that the possibilities inherent in Torah are exhausted, for they are infinite.
illykitty
RF's pet cat
I would like to know, for those who have converted, what was the reason to do so? Remaining a gentile would have been just as fine.
Is it a need to be religious? The need to follow and learn a spirituality? Bettering yourself? Belonging? Etc?
I haven't really considered Judaism in the past but seeing as it was twice in my top three on belief o matic test (reform and orthodox) I thought I'd ask some questions and check it out.
Is it a need to be religious? The need to follow and learn a spirituality? Bettering yourself? Belonging? Etc?
I haven't really considered Judaism in the past but seeing as it was twice in my top three on belief o matic test (reform and orthodox) I thought I'd ask some questions and check it out.
You wouldn't believe how hard of a question that is to answer, and it's been at the forefront of my mind lately. I have to put this on paper for my Beit Din in less than a month.
And, at least for me, there are a number of reasons for my pursuit of conversion. In Judaism I've found a philosophy that I accept, a religious system filled with ritual and meaning that brings me spiritual fulfillment, and a community that shares my ideals and beliefs and accepts me.
But, like you said, I can have this without converting; I can stay as I am and still benifit.
But I don't want to stay as I am. I want to be called to the Torah. I want to take on the task of following the mitzvot. I want to be part of the Jewish people.
And, at least for me, there are a number of reasons for my pursuit of conversion. In Judaism I've found a philosophy that I accept, a religious system filled with ritual and meaning that brings me spiritual fulfillment, and a community that shares my ideals and beliefs and accepts me.
But, like you said, I can have this without converting; I can stay as I am and still benifit.
But I don't want to stay as I am. I want to be called to the Torah. I want to take on the task of following the mitzvot. I want to be part of the Jewish people.
illykitty
RF's pet cat
Yeah I knew it would be a hard question, since Judaism, unlike other religions doesn't require you to convert. In Christianity you can say well I don't want to go to hell as a reason. Heck, I don't think too many people think of even justifying why they are Christian, they just are without real questioning.
But that's what's interesting about Judaism, that there is more to it than just following it for the heck of it. There's deeper meaning to being a Jew.
Thanks for answering! I'll continue looking into it.
But that's what's interesting about Judaism, that there is more to it than just following it for the heck of it. There's deeper meaning to being a Jew.
Thanks for answering!
I'll continue looking into it.
Agnostisch
Egyptian Man
I have read the works of Josephus antiquities of the Jews history, which runs straight from Geneis thorugh the bible on to the discussion of the Macabees Hellenistic era, Roman Caesars to his present day (70 CE). It was quite an interesting read absorbed that way. Are you aware of any good compilations that expound at least on the historical aspect (maybe some God related) through the common era?
Levite
Higher and Higher
When a person commits a transgression that carries the penalty of karet, the Rabbis of the Talmud teach us that this means that, presuming they do not do teshuvah (the process of repentance), their soul will be severed from the body of the Jewish People, and they are denied their share in the World To Come. The word karet comes from the verb lichrot, meaning "to carve out" or "to cut away."
I found the following in a book by Rabbi Kohler, but do most Orthodox or Conservative Rabbi's concur with Rabbi Kohler's conclusions?
''The leading spirits of Judaism have recognized [that Islam was fulfilling a prophesy in Zachariah], declaring both Christianity and Mohammedan religions to be agencies of Divine Providence, entrusted with the historical mission of cooperating in the building up of the Messianic Kingdom, thus preparing for the ultimate triumph of pure monotheism in the hearts and lives of all men and nations of the world. These views, voiced by Jehuda ha Levi, Maimonides, and Nahmanides, were reiterated by many enlightened rabbis of later times. These point out that both the Christian and Mohammedan nations believe in the same God and His revelation to man, in the unity of the human race, and in the future life; that they have spread the knowledge of God by a sacred literature based upon our Scripture; that they have retained the Divine Commandments essentially as they are phrased in our Decalogue; and have practically taught men to fulfill the Noahitic* laws of humanity. On account of the last fact, the medieval Jewish authorities considered Christians to be half-proselytes, while the Mohammedans, being pure monotheists, were always still closer to Judaism.
From, Kohler, Jewish Theology: Systematically and Historically Considered (New York: MacMillan, 1918), p. 427
''The leading spirits of Judaism have recognized [that Islam was fulfilling a prophesy in Zachariah], declaring both Christianity and Mohammedan religions to be agencies of Divine Providence, entrusted with the historical mission of cooperating in the building up of the Messianic Kingdom, thus preparing for the ultimate triumph of pure monotheism in the hearts and lives of all men and nations of the world. These views, voiced by Jehuda ha Levi, Maimonides, and Nahmanides, were reiterated by many enlightened rabbis of later times. These point out that both the Christian and Mohammedan nations believe in the same God and His revelation to man, in the unity of the human race, and in the future life; that they have spread the knowledge of God by a sacred literature based upon our Scripture; that they have retained the Divine Commandments essentially as they are phrased in our Decalogue; and have practically taught men to fulfill the Noahitic* laws of humanity. On account of the last fact, the medieval Jewish authorities considered Christians to be half-proselytes, while the Mohammedans, being pure monotheists, were always still closer to Judaism.
From, Kohler, Jewish Theology: Systematically and Historically Considered (New York: MacMillan, 1918), p. 427
Levite
Higher and Higher
I'm sure any great number of Jews today even know who Kaufmann Kohler was. He was never one of the true great scholars, even in Reform Judaism, of which he was an instrumental part in the social politics of the time, convening the Pittsburgh Conference that came up with the first Reform "platform." He was deeply influenced by cultural secularist movements, like the Jewish Chautauqua, and by the Enlightenment quasi-universalism that so attracted some fin-de-siecle Reform thinkers, and in no small part by Western cultural imperialist notions, when it came to dealing with non-Western culture and thought. His influence was great in Reform Judaism while he was alive, but more for his social and political efforts than his scholarship; and his influence outside the Reform movement was minimal while he was alive, negligible after his death.
Beyond that, his thought is singularly dated, both in terms of how he conceived of text study and its applications, and in how he conceived of interfaith dialogue and philosophy of religion. His work has not survived the years well.
However, it can at least be said that, when he put forth the idea that, as a "pure" monotheism, Islam is technically closer to Judaism than Christianity (which is not a "pure" monotheism, but an adapted monotheism), that is an idea that Jewish scholars have long held, and often stated, and continue to state in many quarters today.