no.
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Do you hope the beliefs "hell exist, where non-believer will be punish for eternity" to come true?
- Thread starter Pudding
- Start date
We are talking of a guy who suggested Jews should be deprived of their books, be put out of business, their sinagogues put on fire and, I quote, "we are at fault for not slaying them".
Here is the whole wikipedia entry (reader's caution is advised)
In the treatise, he argues that Jewish synagogues and schools be set on fire, their prayer booksdestroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes burned, and property and money confiscated. They should be shown no mercy or kindness,[2] afforded no legal protection,[3] and these "poisonous envenomed worms" should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time.[4] He also seems to advocate their murder, writing "[w]e are at fault in not slaying them".
I don't know you, but if I did not know who the author was, I would easily confuse him with another German. Or Austrian, to be precise.
It is all there, black on white and freely downlodable from the Internet.
So, are you really sure he understood the biblical message? Can anyone make such statements while having grasped the message of the Gospel, at the same time?
How does it work?
Ciao
- viole
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Have you read the rest of his writings?
Yes, I am an ex Lutheran.
But who cares what else he wrote? It is like asking me if I took a look at Hitler's paintings, which are probably cute.
I asked you a direct question: can you write anything like that and call yourself a godly man who understood the message of the Gospel?
Yes, ... Or no?
Ciao
- viole
leibowde84
Veteran Member
Why do you equate those who lack belief in God with those who cause suffering? Can you explain yourself here? There are plenty of atheists who live good lives and don't cause suffering, right?
[sigh] Yes. There have been godly men who have held all sorts of horrible beliefs. God eventually corrects us of most of the worst.
The point that you miss is that God is just as horrified by even our 'little' errors as you are by Luther's great, public errors.
Hence the problem when we finally face a perfectly holy God, and the importance of the Good News of the forgiveness of Jesus Christ.
Forgiveness enough to blot away the hatred in the heart of Martin Luther.
That is the whole point.
Your righteousness will not be enough to meet God's standard.
Christ's righteousness is enough to cover even Luther's sins.
Luther understood that, and you reject it.
It is what it is.
ThirtyThree
Well-Known Member
The damned experience everlasting conscious separation from Law in an imperishable body.
They experience unrelenting disorder. They are not made to eat their own excrement or drink their own urine, as they do not eat, yet they do know hunger and thirst. If the state of the damned is to be described as a suffocation, that is an accurate description. It is like unto being about to drown, yet not ever drowning. The disorder is too intense, the damned feel like they are being ripped to pieces, yet when they look on themselves, they are whole. Not only are they whole, their imperishable body remains perfect.
If it is to be said that the damned are made to walk on their heads, this is not a literal description. It is a means of explaining the intensity of the state of discord. In such a state of pandemonium, up is down and down is up, yet neither up or down really exist at all. This was the state of the universe before Law.
It is likewise not incorrect to describe the place of the damned as a whirlpool or a lake of fire. Such a description does the realm justice. While I am not certain if this realm has or does not have literal pits of fire hotter than any found on Earth, I can agree that if there is heat generated, it must be spectacular.
However, whether or not the place of the damned is physically hot is not something I know and it is not entirely relevant either. It could just as well be so cold it burns like fire. It really does not matter because the realm of the damned fits most every description ever given of it.
How then does someone end up in this place? One does evil. It is that simple. What is evil? Evil is what goes against Law. What then is Law? Law is the divine world order established at the beginning of creation. It is the Law of God, the Creator.
From a Christian perspective, which is not wrong in this regard, evil is simply the act of disobeying God. In Genesis Chapter 3, Adam and Eve were given one rule, not to eat from or even touch the Tree of Knowledge. Eve took from the Tree of Knowledge and did eat. She also gave some of the fruit to Adam and he did eat. They both disobeyed God. This was the first evil act.
With that understood, those who do evil will be judged after their physical death and they will be separated from Law. Likewise those who do good will be perfectly conformed to Law so they can exist in Heaven.
What is Heaven? Heaven is a realm separate from the imperfect realm of the current universe. It is a realm untouched by chaos, a non binary dimension. In other words, Heaven is made of one part while this universe is made of two parts. This universe is touched by lawlessness. Heaven is a perfect realm of Law.
Why can everyone not enter Heaven? Disorder and lawlessness can not exist in a perfect realm of Law. "Sin can not exist in Heaven", in other words. The place of the damned is likewise not a binary dimension, just as Heaven is not a binary dimension. The place of the damned is a dimension without Law and I can explain it no more simply than this.
What then is good? Good is what conforms to Law. Christianity teaches how to do good. They also offer redemption from evil through genuine repentance and faith in their savior. Islam, to my knowledge, offers redemption through works. To my knowledge, works are not sufficient. Those who host evil in their hearts can do good works, yet they are not good people. They have not conformed to Law in their hearts, and since the heart is what is measured, they are damned.
The curious thing about Christianity is the teaching it has regarding faith and I have to say they are correct. To be good, one must not simply be good through the physical works they do. They must do also good works in their heart. Their hearts must likewise be conformed to Law.
Ancient Egypt had an excellent example of how the good of a person is measured. The heart was placed on a scale and weighed against a feather of Ma'at, who represented truth, balance, order, harmony, law, morality and justice. These are all of the qualities the god of the Christians is claimed to have, although the Christians add mercy.
How then is one damned? If their heart is evil by even a measure, they may not enter the perfect realm of Law. That should explain it well enough. See? How can God be immoral then for separating evil from good, lawlessness from his Law? The lawless can not enter Heaven just as those conformed in Law will never enter Hell.
As for myself, I choose evil. I have no desire to be conformed to Law and no love for Law or its source. Due to that choice, I will be completely separated from Law after my physical death. I will then join all of the others who also did not choose to conform to Law, including many of the ones man called gods. I refer to the gods of disorder, obviously. To most Christians, these beings would be called The Fallen. I will not deny that they are exactly that either. My experience there will be as I specified many paragraphs above.
They experience unrelenting disorder. They are not made to eat their own excrement or drink their own urine, as they do not eat, yet they do know hunger and thirst. If the state of the damned is to be described as a suffocation, that is an accurate description. It is like unto being about to drown, yet not ever drowning. The disorder is too intense, the damned feel like they are being ripped to pieces, yet when they look on themselves, they are whole. Not only are they whole, their imperishable body remains perfect.
If it is to be said that the damned are made to walk on their heads, this is not a literal description. It is a means of explaining the intensity of the state of discord. In such a state of pandemonium, up is down and down is up, yet neither up or down really exist at all. This was the state of the universe before Law.
It is likewise not incorrect to describe the place of the damned as a whirlpool or a lake of fire. Such a description does the realm justice. While I am not certain if this realm has or does not have literal pits of fire hotter than any found on Earth, I can agree that if there is heat generated, it must be spectacular.
However, whether or not the place of the damned is physically hot is not something I know and it is not entirely relevant either. It could just as well be so cold it burns like fire. It really does not matter because the realm of the damned fits most every description ever given of it.
How then does someone end up in this place? One does evil. It is that simple. What is evil? Evil is what goes against Law. What then is Law? Law is the divine world order established at the beginning of creation. It is the Law of God, the Creator.
From a Christian perspective, which is not wrong in this regard, evil is simply the act of disobeying God. In Genesis Chapter 3, Adam and Eve were given one rule, not to eat from or even touch the Tree of Knowledge. Eve took from the Tree of Knowledge and did eat. She also gave some of the fruit to Adam and he did eat. They both disobeyed God. This was the first evil act.
With that understood, those who do evil will be judged after their physical death and they will be separated from Law. Likewise those who do good will be perfectly conformed to Law so they can exist in Heaven.
What is Heaven? Heaven is a realm separate from the imperfect realm of the current universe. It is a realm untouched by chaos, a non binary dimension. In other words, Heaven is made of one part while this universe is made of two parts. This universe is touched by lawlessness. Heaven is a perfect realm of Law.
Why can everyone not enter Heaven? Disorder and lawlessness can not exist in a perfect realm of Law. "Sin can not exist in Heaven", in other words. The place of the damned is likewise not a binary dimension, just as Heaven is not a binary dimension. The place of the damned is a dimension without Law and I can explain it no more simply than this.
What then is good? Good is what conforms to Law. Christianity teaches how to do good. They also offer redemption from evil through genuine repentance and faith in their savior. Islam, to my knowledge, offers redemption through works. To my knowledge, works are not sufficient. Those who host evil in their hearts can do good works, yet they are not good people. They have not conformed to Law in their hearts, and since the heart is what is measured, they are damned.
The curious thing about Christianity is the teaching it has regarding faith and I have to say they are correct. To be good, one must not simply be good through the physical works they do. They must do also good works in their heart. Their hearts must likewise be conformed to Law.
Ancient Egypt had an excellent example of how the good of a person is measured. The heart was placed on a scale and weighed against a feather of Ma'at, who represented truth, balance, order, harmony, law, morality and justice. These are all of the qualities the god of the Christians is claimed to have, although the Christians add mercy.
How then is one damned? If their heart is evil by even a measure, they may not enter the perfect realm of Law. That should explain it well enough. See? How can God be immoral then for separating evil from good, lawlessness from his Law? The lawless can not enter Heaven just as those conformed in Law will never enter Hell.
As for myself, I choose evil. I have no desire to be conformed to Law and no love for Law or its source. Due to that choice, I will be completely separated from Law after my physical death. I will then join all of the others who also did not choose to conform to Law, including many of the ones man called gods. I refer to the gods of disorder, obviously. To most Christians, these beings would be called The Fallen. I will not deny that they are exactly that either. My experience there will be as I specified many paragraphs above.
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I believe that jews should not be killed, their schools and churches should not be burned etc. but I do not believe in God.
Luther believed jews should be killed, their schools and churches should be burned, etc. but he believed in God.
Who is going to be rewarded and who is gong to be punished?
Depending on your answer, I might reconsider uppercasing the word "God".
Ciao
- viole
The punishment of Luther is a matter for the JDL.
The punishment of Atheists is a matter for God.
So far, neither the JDL nor God has asked for my opinion.
This is just idle speculation on an Internet forum.
Why should you be so concerned whether a God that you do not believe in, finds you more moral than a man who is already dead? Why should I be so concerned with it?
cambridge79
Active Member
So just to be clear:
When Luther wants all Jews synagogues burned he is a wicked man worse than hitler
But when god sends the same Jews to hell for being tortured in flames till the end of time cause they dont accept Christ, he is the most righteous and wise being in the universe
What is that doesn't make sense to me here?
Yet, that still does not answer my original question. How is it possible that someone who preaches murderous discrimination of a whole cultural group (just because they refused to buy his tales), has understood the message of the Gospel?
It is like saying that someone can be a mathematician while still thinking that 2+2=5. It does not compute (pun intended).
I have another question: does God punish all atheists?
Ciao
- viole
That is what happen when you are locked in an inherently self contradicting position: that you can only be saved by accepting the gift of salvation offered by jesus.
Ciao
- viole
Just so I don't miss anything:
1. How is it possible that someone who preaches murderous discrimination of a whole cultural group (just because they refused to buy his tales), has understood the message of the Gospel?
What is the "message of the Gospel"?
If the "message of the Gospel" is DO NOT "preach murderous discrimination of a whole cultural group (just because they refused to buy your tales)", then Martin did not understand the message of the Gospel.
If the message of the Gospel is something else, then Martin can both be wrong in his opinion on discrimination of cultural groups and correct in his understanding of the "message of the Gospel".
So from your pre-atheist, Lutheran days what is "message of the Gospel"?
It seems important that we clarify that bit of information.
2. Does God punish all atheists?
First, this answer must obviously presuppose that my beliefs are correct.
If your (atheist) beliefs are correct, then the question is meaningless.
That said, Atheists have the same choices as anyone and everyone else; no special treatment of any kind.
Option 1: You can be morally perfect and enter Heaven (like Jesus was).
Option 2: You can accept forgiveness on God's terms (which are His to split hairs over the details of and not mine).
Option 3: You can be refused entrance to Heaven (and find out what that entails).
Your confusion is understandable.
All of your basic assumptions are incorrect.
Assumption: When Luther wants all Jews synagogues burned he is a wicked man worse than Hitler
Luther wrote about doing it. Hitler had his followers actually carry out the act. There is a significant difference between saying 'Jews should be killed' and operating death camps. Don't you agree?
Therefore, both Luther and Hither were anti-Semitic, but Luther was not worse than Hitler.
Assumption: God sends the same Jews to hell to be tortured in flames till the end of time
Assuming facts not in evidence. Where does it say that anyone is "tortured in flames til the end of time"? Could you please provide a Bible verse in support of this claim.
I went looking and was not able to find the so called "smoking gun" (pun intended). It can be inferred from several verses, but it is only one possible interpretation of those verses. There are other verses that appear to make a stronger case for being 'destroyed'. The imagery used frequently is simply burning the trash to get rid of it. If they are dead, there might be no 'torture' involved at all.
Assumption: God sends the same Jews to hell because they don't accept Christ
Simply put, that is not why people are sent to Hell.
People are sent to Hell for doing evil.
When I was studying Computer Science, they had a saying: Garbage in, garbage out.
Apparently it applies in other areas as well.
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You're not alone in the ^ above ^ in what you have heard. Please keep in mind Luke 16:14-31 is an illustration ( parable ) and Not a real happening.
Jesus would Not address the people ( in this case the money-loving Pharisees - Luke 16:14 ) without an illustration - Matthew 13:34; Luke 16:19;Luke 16:14 - the rich man Pharisees.
There is No paradise section of biblical hell ( hades ) - Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; John 11:11-14
The paradisical Garden of Eden was Not located in hades/hell but on Earth.
Mankind will return to the earthly Garden, so to speak, - Revelation 22:2; Isaiah chapter 35
KJV translated a number of words in English as hell and hellfire both from the old Hebrew and the new Greek Scriptures.
So, in English Jesus went to biblical hell/ hades the day Jesus died - Acts of the Apostles 2:27; Psalms 16:10
Jesus did go to sheol in that Jesus went to the ' Bible's temporary stone-cold grave ' until God resurrected the dead Jesus out of hell/hades/sheol - Acts of the Apostles 3:15
Jesus, however, was Never in hellfire ( from the word Gehenna ). Gehenna ( Hellfire ) was just a garbage pit where things were destroyed Not kept burning forever.
So, Gehenna is a fitting word for destruction as in that the wicked will be destroyed forever ( annihilated ) - Psalms 92:7
If you are referring to ' biblical hell ' then, except for those of Hebrews 6:4-6; Matthew 12:32, everyone who dies goes to biblical hell, because ' biblical hell ' is just mankind's common temporary stone-cold grave where the dead sleep in death until resurrected. - Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13; John 11:11-1.
That included the dead Jesus who went to the Bible's temporary hell the day he died - Acts of the Apostles 2:27; Psalms 16:10 until God resurrected Jesus - Acts of the Apostles 3:15.
The wicked are simply destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7
Remember too - John 3:13; Acts of the Apostles 2:34 - everyone who died before Jesus died were Not called to heavenly life, but can have a healthy physical resurrection back to life on earth with the opportunity to live forever on earth, starting with Jesus' coming 1,000 year governmental rulership over earth when enemy death will be No more - 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8
Muffled
Jesus in me
If the problem is ignorance, teach.
If the problem is physical/mental, heal.
If the problem is a sense of being wronged, figure out why and fix it.
Hell isn't needed, if intelligence is used.
To be fair, "Highway to Hell" is really awesome.
I believe the problem is sin. People love sin. It is like trying to get an alcoholic to stop drinking. He has to want to stop.
I believe it is fun to fool around with a song and people who do probably have a false image of Hell but the reality is much more boring.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe the lack of evidence argument gets old. It is like the old adage "I didn't know the gun was loaded." One does not need to fire the gun at someone's head to find out.
Do you think our religious beliefs are what determine our afterlife fate (as opposed to our spiritual thoughts and behavior) ? I don't think which of the various religious beliefs you follow really matters.