Do you hope the beliefs "hell exist, where non-believer will be punish for eternity" to come true?

[Altfish]

Where have i say "i think the Easter Bunny may exist" ?
For me to not claim certainty about the non-existent of Easter Bunny, doesn't mean i think it may exist.
I've already say i don't believe it exists.
To claim i know it doesn't exists, is not the requirement for me to don't believe it exists.

OK, playing with words.

You say extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
But you claims you're 100% certain that hell doesn't exists, because of lack of evidence for its existence.
It sounds like you have made an extraordinary claims but without any extraordinary evidence but only lack of evidence.
Where is your extraordinary evidence for your extraordinary claims?

I have made no claim never mind an extraordinary claim.
All I have done is say the claim that Hell exists is untrue. The person who says it exist is making the claim, I am just asking for evidence.

 

[muhammad_isa]

From what you've said here, it looks like you believe Hell isn't something God sends people to, rather it's a natural consequence of our actions. Am I thinking along the right lines here? Also, from what I understand, the Islamic idea of Hell is that it's a place of fire and torture where sinners reside eternally. Is that how you see Hell, or do you view it differently?

Basically, we want our life in the future to be a success .. that includes the life hereafter, which is considerably longer than the present one..
Those that 'lose their own souls' have to find them again. How could 'good people' trust 'bad people' if they have had unpleasant experiences with them? Even in this life, some people are incarcerated until death .. that's a long time as well.

My primary issues with Hell as a punishment are severity and duration. Burning and torture are incredibly severe punishments in the first place. To administer those punishments for eternity is, in my eyes, monstrous beyond imagining..

Well .. what is eternity? How long does it take to 'get back on your feet' after a serious fall. Would a thousand years of pain sound any better? I would think it best to try to avoid that which causes it, no?
..and it goes without saying, that you have to WANT to reform.

don't see much difference between a God that actively sends people to such a place and a God that simply allows such a place to exist. Both would be evil to my mind. Furthermore, a hell like that wouldn't actually allow anybody to learn from their mistakes and make amends. It's punishment without rehabilitation, which I have always viewed as sadistic.

See above.

Perhaps the thing that worries me most about Hell doctrines is their impact on this world. That an entity capable of inflicting infinite suffering (or otherwise, allows beings to experience infinite suffering) could be considered good, wise or just has some very frightening implications.

Not if you look at the positive side .. ie. that people might fear God and avoid corruption and oppressing others
The negative side normally comes from us, by leaning towards evil .. as they say .. a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

 

[muhammad_isa]

so will drinking alchool send you to hell? muslims think yes, christians think no..

Drinking in itself wouldn't necessarily send you to hell.
If you drunk unresponsibly (easily done!), and lost control of your senses, perhaps wronging yourself or others, then it might well do unless you repent..

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Drinking in itself wouldn't necessarily send you to hell.
If you drunk unresponsibly (easily done!), and lost control of your senses, perhaps wronging yourself or others, then it might well do unless you repent..

Does anyone righteous go to hell ? _______
The day righteous Jesus died, Jesus went to hell - Acts of the Apostles 2:27. Not a religious-myth hell, but ' biblical hell ' or the temporary grave for mankind.
The hell of Scripture is mankind's stone-cold grave where the dead sleep in death until resurrected out of biblical hell.
- John 11:11-14; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13; Ecclesiastes 9:5
Since Jesus taught only ' sleep ' in death, then while in the grave ( biblical hell ) Jesus would have been in an unconscious sleep-like state until God resurrected Jesus out of temporary hell or the grave - Acts of the Apostles 3:15
Even the word cemetery means: sleeping place.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

In as much as the Bible says hell is:

Matthew 25:46 - And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.​

and for

Revelation 21:8
- But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars,[who] shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

a place established by god, or who at least allows it to exist, it must be good because

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.​

I would think any god-fearing Christian would applaud his perfect works and certainly hope all of god's good works truly exist, even those designed for the non-believer.
.

What is ' everlasting punishment ' according to 2 Thessalonians 1:9 but: destruction. The wicked destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7
What is the definition of the lake of fire but ' second death '.
In death there is No consciousness - Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; John 11:11-14
There is No resurrection from ' second death '. Satan ends up in ' second death ' - Revelation 21:8
Jesus destroys Satan - Hebrews 2:14 B. So, ' second death ' is a fitting term for destruction or annihilation.

 

[JoStories]

Thanks for your reply.

Does hell exist?
I don't know.
Do i believe hell exist?
No, i don't believe hell exist.

IMO, hell is a cmplete fabrication of the Abrahamic faiths. It was conceived to keep the masses in check and furthermore, hell was not completely conceived or understood until Dante and Milton wrote of the places. Buddhism has the Bardo state which is analogous to a way station between incarnations, IMO. Some schools within Buddhism state that one can have intense hallucinations of the prior life while others find it to be a place of peace and contemplation before one is reborn. Nothing at all like the concept of hell.

 

[Pudding]

OK, playing with words.
I have made no claim never mind an extraordinary claim.
All I have done is say the claim that Hell exists is untrue. The person who says it exist is making the claim, I am just asking for evidence.

You say you're 100% certain the beliefs of hell will not happen.
That is making claims.
And your evidence for your claims is there is lack of evidence which proves hell exists.
The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.
_____________________________________________
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

If a proposition has not been disproven, then it cannot be considered false and must therefore be considered true.
If a proposition has not been proven, then it cannot be considered true and must therefore be considered false.

To reiterate, these arguments ignore the fact, and difficulty, that some true things may never be proven, and some false things may never be disproved with absolute certainty. The phrase "the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence" can be used as a shorthand rebuttal to the second form of the ignorance fallacy (i.e. P has never been absolutely proven and is therefore certainly false). Most often it is directed at any conclusion derived from null results in an experiment or from the non-detection of something. In other words, where one researcher may say their experiment suggests evidence of absence, another researcher might argue that the experiment failed to detect a phenomenon for other reasons.

Distinguishing absence of evidence from evidence of absence
Absence of evidence is a condition in which no valid conclusion can be inferred from the mere absence of detection, normally due to doubt in the detection method. Evidence of absence is the successful variation: a conclusion that relies on specific knowledge in conjunction with negative detection to deduce the absence of something. An example of evidence of absence is checking your pockets for spare change and finding nothing, but being confident that the search would have found it if it was there.

So, I should allow for a possibility that the Easter Bunny exists? What about Russell's Celestial Teapot? Do you think The Flying Spaghetti Monster exists?
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" was the phrase made popular by Carl Sagan, it applies in relation to Hell. I will need extraordinary evidence of its existence to even consider any truth behind the story.

Easter Bunny is a folkloric figure and symbol of Easter, do they really exists?
I don't believe they exists.
I don't know whether evidence of absence would fit here or not.

Do they exists long long ago?
That is something i can't verify.
The best thing i can say is i don't believe any claims until convincing evidence shown up.
But to claims that i know something which i can't verify of, will be dishonest of me.
It's the absence of evidence.

Russell's Celestial Teapot is an analogy first coined by the philosopher Bertrand Russell to illustrate that the philosophic burden of proof lies upon a person making scientifically unfalsifiable claims rather than shifting the burden of proof to others, specifically in the case of religion.

It's an analogy create by human to proves a point, it's fiction.
It's the evidence of absence which makes me conclude it's fiction.

The Flying Spaghetti Monster (FSM) is the deity of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster or Pastafarianism (a portmanteau of pasta and Rastafarian), a social movement that promotes a light-hearted view of religion and opposes the teaching of intelligent design and creationism in public schools. Although adherents describe Pastafarianism as a genuine religion, it is generally seen by the media as a parody religion.

To me, it seems like it's a parody joke making by anti-theist to lightly voice their anti-religion opinion.
I'll put up with consider it a fiction until any convincing evidence shown up which prove it's not.
It's the evidence of absence.


The existence of hell is a beliefs interpret from the religion's Holy Book, can you verify whether or not it exists? Have you verify it and present your result support by evidence?
You probably cannot verify it and you haven't show any evidence to date.

You haven't verify whether or not the beliefs of hell will come true, but you still say you're 100% certain it'll not happen because of lack of evidence proving it's true.
You haven't provide any evidence of absence to prove it will not happen.

To say that you're 100% certain the beliefs of hell will not come true, without present any evidence to support your opinion/claim, but rely on absence of evidence to support your opinion/claim.
Like there is no compelling evidence that hell exists, therefor it doesn't exists.

It's an argument from ignorance.

 

[Pudding]

Do you believe in God( Creator )?

No, i'm atheist.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Well .. this is perhaps the impression that you have.
How's about imagining that Almighty God is not a person .. that hell is of our own making .. much like a criminal ending up in jail for not obeying 'the law'.

I get what you're trying to say, but as jails are made by others, a "natural" comeuppance would be something like "if you eat 5 cakes a day, you'll get diabetes" or something.

You can of course take whatever verses of the Bible and Qur'an you wish literally .. whatever suits you .. some people like to say that 'God is to blame' because He gave us the power to do evil, and should have made us angels etc.
Sorry .. that's not reality. Reality is that we have to take responsibility for our actions. Nobody likes being warned. If God said that 'He would smack our hand' if we were naughty, would you listen then?

I'm fine with the responsibility part. I feel Christianity essentially teaches us to throw Jesus under the bus so that we don't have to own up to our decisions (at least, some of the fundamentalists make me see that). However, if God is able to intervene, as our Creator, He is morally responsible to care for His creations. If I get a pet, I have a moral responsibility to make sure it doesn't suffer. If I have a child, I have a moral responsibility to make sure it doesn't suffer. If God chooses to be seen as a "father", then there are responsibilities inherent in such a condition.

 

[Pudding]

It was conceived to keep the masses in check and furthermore, hell was not completely conceived or understood until Dante and Milton wrote of the places.

It indeed can be interpret like that.

 

[Erebus]

Basically, we want our life in the future to be a success .. that includes the life hereafter, which is considerably longer than the present one..
Those that 'lose their own souls' have to find them again. How could 'good people' trust 'bad people' if they have had unpleasant experiences with them? Even in this life, some people are incarcerated until death .. that's a long time as well.

Well .. what is eternity? How long does it take to 'get back on your feet' after a serious fall. Would a thousand years of pain sound any better? I would think it best to try to avoid that which causes it, no?
..and it goes without saying, that you have to WANT to reform.


Not if you look at the positive side .. ie. that people might fear God and avoid corruption and oppressing others
The negative side normally comes from us, by leaning towards evil .. as they say .. a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

I've heard the prison analogy a few times to justify Hell. Kelly of the Phoenix quite succinctly explained why it doesn't work as an analogy if we are to argue that Hell is a natural consequence of our actions. I also have a couple of other issues with the analogy too. Once again, I have to bring up duration and severity. If we assume a 20 year old is sentenced to spend the rest of their life in prison (with no chance of release, which doesn't often happen in my own country) they'll probably spend a maximum of about 60 years in prison. They'll also have food, water, shelter and ... you know, not be on fire the whole time.

Even 1000 years of torment, though horrific in and of itself, would be better than eternity. Eternity removes any chance of hope, any chance to learn from your mistakes. It's entirely unnecessary as a means of punishment or rehabilitation.

I understand the argument that Hell might serve to deter people from committing evil acts. I'd argue that it's proved ineffective so far, but there you go. Wouldn't it be better for a truly benevolent deity to unite us without using fear though? If God is truly all powerful, it shouldn't be beyond him to find a more efficient way of teaching people to do good. He can even allow for people to make mistakes and learn from them, he is God after all.

Ultimately I see one primary reason for the concept of hell to still be around. It's a very good way for humans to frighten other humans into obedience.

At any rate, I think I've said my piece on this. It's not really a topic I want to dwell too much on. If you'd like to have the final say, then by all means do. Thank you for having a polite debate with me, topics like this don't always go quite so smoothly

 

[muhammad_isa]

Even 1000 years of torment, though horrific in and of itself, would be better than eternity. Eternity removes any chance of hope, any chance to learn from your mistakes. It's entirely unnecessary as a means of punishment or rehabilitation.

It's not about whether it's unecessary or not .. it's a consequence of our deeds/behaviour .. as is the duration .. I suppose you could say that we might have reached the point of 'no return' .. we've made our bed and have to lie in it. The bottom line is that no soul will be wronged even in the slightest. Divine justice does not include mistakes.

I understand the argument that Hell might serve to deter people from committing evil acts. I'd argue that it's proved ineffective so far, but there you go. Wouldn't it be better for a truly benevolent deity to unite us without using fear though? If God is truly all powerful, it shouldn't be beyond him to find a more efficient way of teaching people to do good. He can even allow for people to make mistakes and learn from them, he is God after all.

Easy to say .. but let's just say that we had no experience of physical pain in this life .. could we really learn to change our behaviour (that caused it) in the same way? I'm not so sure we could.

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

Yes i believe and hope it comes.
Because every human must pay price.

 

[LuisDantas]

@Servant_of_the_One1 : Pay the price for what? For the degree to which he or she fulfillled God's expectations or fell short, perhaps?

 

[Ingledsva]

C'mon, that's a terrible . . . terrible analogy.

And in as much as you've chosen not to answer my question I'll leave with this from Biblestudytools.com. . . .

"Hell Bible Verses

Bible Verses About Hell There are many verses that discuss the subject of hell, for it is not a place where anyone wants to spend eternity, so it is important for Christians to know the Scriptures describing this horrible place.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Psalms 9:17
17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God."

etc.

etc.
source​

Look at post number 29, I have already given Rev 21:8, and Matt 25:46.

Here is an alternative translation of Psalms 9:17

9:17 Returned are the guilty to the grave, and/as all people that forget Elohiym.

*

 

[Skwim]

Look at post number 29, I have already given Rev 21:8, and Matt 25:46.

Here is an alternative translation of Psalms 9:17

9:17 Returned are the guilty to the grave, and/as all people that forget Elohiym.

*

Obviously Zaedoz didn't pay any attention to it.

 

[Ingledsva]

Why is it compared to fire? I see dementia in people is like a fire of the brain.

I think we have so much comparison to fire because people no longer understand the original words.

A lot of the words in Tanakh - which are associated with fire, - are actually from a word meaning a smelting furnace, - where the dross/impurities are destroyed, - leaving the pure.

And then we have Gehenna, burning day and night, where the refuse is burnt, and criminal's bodies are destroyed, rather than given a proper family burial.

In either case the dross/criminals are destroyed.

Edit - Opps! meant Gehenna.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

Does anyone righteous go to hell ? _______
The day righteous Jesus died, Jesus went to hell - Acts of the Apostles 2:27. Not a religious-myth hell, but ' biblical hell ' or the temporary grave for mankind.
The hell of Scripture is mankind's stone-cold grave where the dead sleep in death until resurrected out of biblical hell.
- John 11:11-14; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13; Ecclesiastes 9:5
Since Jesus taught only ' sleep ' in death, then while in the grave ( biblical hell ) Jesus would have been in an unconscious sleep-like state until God resurrected Jesus out of temporary hell or the grave - Acts of the Apostles 3:15
Even the word cemetery means: sleeping place.

Yep. Sheol.

*

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I've heard the prison analogy a few times to justify Hell. Kelly of the Phoenix quite succinctly explained why it doesn't work as an analogy if we are to argue that Hell is a natural consequence of our actions. I also have a couple of other issues with the analogy too. Once again, I have to bring up duration and severity. If we assume a 20 year old is sentenced to spend the rest of their life in prison (with no chance of release, which doesn't often happen in my own country) they'll probably spend a maximum of about 60 years in prison. They'll also have food, water, shelter and ... you know, not be on fire the whole time.
Even 1000 years of torment, though horrific in and of itself, would be better than eternity. Eternity removes any chance of hope, any chance to learn from your mistakes. It's entirely unnecessary as a means of punishment or rehabilitation.
I understand the argument that Hell might serve to deter people from committing evil acts. I'd argue that it's proved ineffective so far, but there you go. Wouldn't it be better for a truly benevolent deity to unite us without using fear though? If God is truly all powerful, it shouldn't be beyond him to find a more efficient way of teaching people to do good. He can even allow for people to make mistakes and learn from them, he is God after all.
Ultimately I see one primary reason for the concept of hell to still be around. It's a very good way for humans to frighten other humans into obedience.
At any rate, I think I've said my piece on this. It's not really a topic I want to dwell too much on. If you'd like to have the final say, then by all means do. Thank you for having a polite debate with me, topics like this don't always go quite so smoothly

Clergy have used the non-biblical hell concept of burning forever as a scare tactic to try to control the flock. That does Not make such tactics as right and does make their teaching as wrong.

I haven't heard of a prison analogy in a long time:
Since those dead because of Adam are Not extinct, but just ' sleeping in death '( biblical hell )- Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; John 11:11-14 - because father Adam bequeathed a legacy, leaving us an inheritance of death's sleeping condition - Daniel 12:2. So, while dead Jesus was in hell he was in a sleeping state - Acts of the Apostles 2:27
Chains of sin put the dead world of mankind shackled in its silent prison precinct.
We the living only have partial liberty right now while we still wait for deliverance through Christ's coming millennial reign over earth freeing us from the adamic death sentence.
We are still walking around the prison yard and Not yet shut up in our prison cells ( tombs ) - Ezekiel 18:4
Scripture says we can be saved from the death trap, but for right now we can only experience actual delivery from death via a resurrection. - Acts of the Apostles 24:15
The awakening of the sleeping world ( the dead ) will be in the morning ( resurrection morning ) or during Jesus' coming 1,000 year governmental rulereship over earth.
That's when the pardoned sinners - Romans 6:7 - will be awakened from death's deep slumber to come forth to favorable conditions - Isaiah 25:8
Then, there will be No death warrants issued, No death watch, and hopes will Not die. <- All that is possible because sinless Jesus died a hero's death for us.
As our Redeemer, Jesus has full control over the great prison house of death. Satan (our great jailer ) does Not have the keys to death's door, but Jesus does - Revelation 1:18
Jesus will unlock the prison house of detention for mankind. So, out of hell's dungeon comes hell's prisoner ( aka the jailbirds pardoned for their errors - Romans 6:7)
They hear and obey Jesus' voice to get up and walk. Walk the highway of holiness up, up, up out of the valley of the shadow of death, up to the full and original healthy physical life of blessings as originally offered to Adam before his downfall. A paradise the earth will be, and through eyes of faith this even now we can see.

 

[Muffled]

Oh great! Just what the world needs: Another god with another hell that he wants to send people to!

This is not directed at Muffled, but what is it about making people suffer that so delights some people? Is it some kind of compensation for living a petty, meaningless life? Does it make them feel big and important?

I believe it is not another god but the same God. I never want to send people to hell and have died to keep people from going there.