Do You Know Why You Don't Believe?

[Sunstone]

How else would you know God exists? Well, your standard of proof. Is it easier to believe that atoms formed themselves and formed time and organized planetary systems that followed physical laws and then those atoms, somehow, formed life?

It's always easier to believe "God did it". It's so easy to believe "God did it" that any child can believe "God did it". But the mere ease with which we swallow things does not prove them true.

 

[Sunstone]

I don't have to. You are doing it for me.

Are you evading the question?

 

[Super Universe]

Do you understand quantum physics? Neither do I....but ask Mr.Spinkles sometime how matter is created from nothing, it can happen.

Ok, let's say I believe in God. Then what? Is he mad when I don't believe? Is he happy when I do believe? If so, how do you know?

I haven't talked with Mr. Sprinkles but I'd absolutely love to hear his thoughts on how matter is created from nothing. Some of the people who vote on the Noble Prize would like to hear how it can happen as well.

Let's say you believe in God? Is He mad when you don't believe? Nope, not one bit. Is He happy when you do believe? God is no more happy or less happy regardless of what you do.

What you are not seeing is that, each statement you make is from your point of view. I know it's only natural but try, just once, to see the universe from someone elses point of view. Then maybe, try to see it from God's point of view.

 

[Super Universe]

But the mere ease with which we swallow things does not prove them true.

Do you think a person who has died from multiple trauma on a table in a hospital and then come back to life and suddenly is positive that there is an afterlife has swallowed something with ease?

 

[Sunstone]

Hmm, lets see, my ego needs to aggrandize itself by identifying with a deity huh?

Umm, how exactly have I identified with this diety?

Have you not become emotionally attached to the concept of deity?

People identify with things all the time, SU. Some people become emotionally attached to a sports team. Some people become emotionally attached to a brand of household detergent. Some people become emotionally attached to their jobs. Some people become emotionally attached to a type of behavior. And so on and so forth... Study Buddhism. Attachment is a common occurrence.

 

[Sunstone]

Do you think a person who has died from multiple trauma on a table in a hospital and then come back to life and suddenly is positive that there is an afterlife has swallowed something with ease?

Your statement equivocates on the word ease or easy.

 

[Buttercup]

Let's say you believe in God? Is He mad when you don't believe? Nope, not one bit. Is He happy when you do believe? God is no more happy or less happy regardless of what you do.

Then, what does it matter? Why is the question even important to you if God doesn't care if we believe in him? By the way, did he tell you he doesn't care? Because I'm curious how you know that fact.

What you are not seeing is that, each statement you make is from your point of view.

And, coincidently, each statement you make concerning 'who' god is is from your point of view. Unless your ego is so large you are the first and last authority on God perhaps?

I know it's only natural but try, just once, to see the universe from someone elses point of view. Then maybe, try to see it from God's point of view.

I have my dear....many, many, many, many times in my life. Why else would I be a member of a Religious Forum?

 

[Inky]

It seems to me that "nothing, then God, then universe" or "God, then universe", as timelines, are no more likely than "nothing, then universe" or just "universe". Adding God just bumps the question back a step; it doesn't really solve anything.

Let's say you believe in God? Is He mad when you don't believe? Nope, not one bit. Is He happy when you do believe? God is no more happy or less happy regardless of what you do.

Why assume that?

 

[Super Universe]

Then, what does it matter? Why is the question even important to you if God doesn't care if we believe in him? By the way, did he tell you he doesn't care? Because I'm curious how you know that fact.

And, coincidently, each statement you make concerning 'who' god is is from your point of view. Unless your ego is so large you are the first and last authority on God perhaps?

I have my dear....many, many, many, many times in my life. Why else would I be a member of a Religious Forum?

What does it matter? It's important to analyze yourself.

At noon each day I ask myself "Am I in a good mood or angry mood?" Then I trace back to whatever caused me to feel good or angry. If I am angry I say "Okay, that's enough. I'm not going to allow that to ruin my day".

You should know what emotions control you. Are you angry at the world? Is it unfair? If God exists, what should He change?

Did God tell me? No, absolutely not. I'm not that important. Not nearly that important.
It's not about me. Nothing is. I can exist or not exist and the universe would not be changed in the least bit.

Each statement I make is from my point of view. A point of view that was athiest for 21 years. Has yours evolved?

 

[Super Universe]

Why assume that?

Why assume that God does not become angry and does not sadden?

Because He created the universe. A being that creates the universe is quite evolved. A being that is capable of creating a universe and then becomes angry at a primitive human because they don't believe in Him wouldn't become angry, He would simply change it.

But God doesn't change it.

Throw out the bible, it's written by idiots who didn't know the cause of lightning or the wind.

Use logic.

 

[Buttercup]

What does it matter? It's important to analyze yourself.

Ok, thank you for the advice.

You should know what emotions control you.

Love controls most of my day. Life works better that way.

Did God tell me? No, absolutely not. I'm not that important. Not nearly that important.

Then, how do you surmise God doesn't care when we do or don't believe? Isn't that answer simply your opinion?

Each statement I make is from my point of view. A point of view that was athiest for 21 years. Has yours evolved?

Yes, indeed my point of view has evolved. I was a Christian for 25 years and am now agnostic. I came to the conclusion after much study and reflection that if there is a God, I have absolutely no idea who he is or what he wants. And according to you...it doesn't matter either. Good.

 

[Super Universe]

Ok, thank you for the advice.

Love controls most of my day. Life works better that way.

Then, how do you surmise God doesn't care when we do or don't believe? Isn't that answer simply your opinion?
Yes, indeed my point of view has evolved. I was a Christian for 25 years and am now agnostic. I came to the conclusion after much study and reflection that if there is a God, I have absolutely no idea who he is or what he wants. And according to you...it doesn't matter either. Good.

It doesn't matter to God whether humans believe or do not believe because He is not so easily swayed by our drama, our roller coaster life, our emotional outbursts. Human's are all bi-polar, just to different extremes.

It doesn't matter now whether you believe or not but in your future it will.

You gave and gave and got nothing back huh? I can understand. Did you ever set a plate for Him at the table? Not sure if you tried that one, maybe you did. If not, try it.

What have you got to lose?

 

[Buttercup]

It doesn't matter now whether you believe or not but in your future it will.

Ahhhhh, ok, here we're going to get into the real nitty gritty. What will happen to me pray tell if I don't believe? And, how do you know?

You gave and gave and got nothing back huh? I can understand. Did you ever set a plate for Him at the table? Not sure if you tried that one, maybe you did. If not, try it.

What have you got to lose?

HUH?

 

[Super Universe]

In order to ascend the dimensional ladder you have to understand how the universe works because you have to go up the ladder yourself, it's a ladder, not an elevator.

An advanced understanding of God theory will be provided to you, something that 99% of all beings believe in when shown all the support.

The other 1% are lost. Regardless of the proof provided you do not have to believe in anything if you do not wish to.

 

[YmirGF]

What is the reason you don't believe in God? Or the reason you're not absolutely positively sure God exists?

I never kid myself entirely S_U. To be on sound footing one must realize that there is always the simple possibility that god-concepts are all in our imagination. My thinking is if we ever let ourselves insist on a certain model of reality then we have managed to delude ourselves. Doubt is good; certainty is for fools.

I'd guess the number one reason is because people see bad things happening all around them and can't understand why God would allow it to happen.

That is a rather simplistic approach. I would rather expect it is because they tend to believe in concrete realities that they can perceive with their physical senses. It is altogether a reasonable position to take. When people demonstrate great leaps of faith then their ashtrays can indeed become as gods.

How would you rate the other reasons not to believe?

The foremost reason to NOT believe, imho, is the simple fact that most of the reasons TO believe are not particularly believable. Is that so hard to understand?

Now the key question, where would you rate your own ego as a reason and do you realize it's the main reason?

My ego is in harmony with my larger identity S_U. This is a weak attempt at a trick question actually as it presupposes that the ego is a miserable little creature that does not deserve to be trusted and allied with greater aspects of being. Fortunately such is not the case and this is why I am on record as saying that atheists have a far better chance of seeing reality, for what it is, than theists, as traditionally and in general, they have far less baggage to toss out.

Theists by default are under the impression that they hold the magic marble in the palm of their hand and yet they don't realize that they touch nothing but their own skin.

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In order to ascend the dimensional ladder you have to understand how the universe works because you have to go up the ladder yourself, it's a ladder, not an elevator.

There is no so-called dimensional ladder, S_U. Trust me, on this one and if you insist there is then you evidently have little understanding of these things.

An advanced understanding of God theory will be provided to you, something that 99% of all beings believe in when shown all the support.

May I see the statistical analysis for this unfounded presumption, S_U? *Flutters eyes annoyingly* Oh look... a bunny! --==>>> :bunny:

The other 1% are lost. Regardless of the proof provided you do not have to believe in anything if you do not wish to.

Get over it S_U, as no one is lost although many are too busy to be bothered. You are no different than Muslims who tell me all I need to is read the Noble Qur'an with an open heart and an empty intellect or Christians who insist I latch on to their version of Geesuz to be saved from myself for an incredibly boring eternity of supplications. Reality is not as sexy as god-concepts but I infinitely prefer reality to the drivel of such sentiments.

 

[Buttercup]

In order to ascend the dimensional ladder you have to understand how the universe works because you have to go up the ladder yourself, it's a ladder, not an elevator.

How do we figure out how the universe works? Isn't that a tall order for us measly humans?

An advanced understanding of God theory will be provided to you, something that 99% of all beings believe in when shown all the support.

Ok, show me the goods.

The other 1% are lost. Regardless of the proof provided you do not have to believe in anything if you do not wish to.

And what happens to them?

 

[blackout]

It doesn't matter to God whether humans believe or do not believe because He is not so easily swayed by our drama, our roller coaster life, our emotional outbursts. Human's are all bi-polar, just to different extremes.

It doesn't matter now whether you believe or not but in your future it will.

I find that to be just such an utterly strange statement.

When else would it be important to experience God but in the now moment?

I somehow think it's rather more like....

"God says to christians when they reach the pearly gates....
"I sent prophets, I sent Y'shua to tell you that the Kingdom is NOW,
and you did not enter into the fullness of NEW LIFE on earth,
in His example, cause you were so concerned with "winning" it
when your body was laid 6 feet under. The gates were before you all along.
I sent you windows, and doors in the spirit, but you chose doctrine instead of freedom.
You kept your eyes on the future... instead of walking into/in eternity."
"You forfieted your inheratance on earth, and yes. It does matter to me.
I'm not angry. But it's a real shame. Don't you think?"

 

[LogDog]

Does God prove Himself? Uh, how about the universe? How about life? How about the earth? Those aren't enough I guess.

It would be egotistical for you to suggest that the "evidence" you find so convincing should be sufficient for everyone else.

Why do you think it is that your "god of love" would spare some from eternal torment by providing the evidence that convinces them to believe but won't do the same for others?

 

[Super Universe]

I never kid myself entirely S_U. To be on sound footing one must realize that there is always the simple possibility that god-concepts are all in our imagination. My thinking is if we ever let ourselves insist on a certain model of reality then we have managed to delude ourselves. Doubt is good; certainty is for fools.

That is a rather simplistic approach. I would rather expect it is because they tend to believe in concrete realities that they can perceive with their physical senses. It is altogether a reasonable position to take. When people demonstrate great leaps of faith then their ashtrays can indeed become as gods.

The foremost reason to NOT believe, imho, is the simple fact that most of the reasons TO believe are not particularly believable. Is that so hard to understand?

My ego is in harmony with my larger identity S_U. This is a weak attempt at a trick question actually as it presupposes that the ego is a miserable little creature that does not deserve to be trusted and allied with greater aspects of being. Fortunately such is not the case and this is why I am on record as saying that atheists have a far better chance of seeing reality, for what it is, than theists, as traditionally and in general, they have far less baggage to toss out.

Theists by default are under the impression that they hold the magic marble in the palm of their hand and yet they don't realize that they touch nothing but their own skin.

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There is no so-called dimensional ladder, S_U. Trust me, on this one and if you insist there is then you evidently have little understanding of these things.

May I see the statistical analysis for this unfounded presumption, S_U? *Flutters eyes annoyingly*

Get over it S_U, as no one is lost although many are too busy to be bothered. You are no different than Muslims who tell me all I need to is read the Noble Qur'an with an open heart and an empty intellect or Christians who insist I latch on to their version of Geesuz to be saved from myself for an incredibly boring eternity of supplications. Reality is not as sexy as god-concepts but I infinitely prefer reality to the drivel of such thinking.

Doubt is a lack of assurance, lack of absolute proof. Does a good father doubt the love he has for his own children? Is it good for him to question it? He may not like his children from time to time but he never stops loving them.

Concrete realities? Who can sense life? If a very old person is sleeping why do humans look for their breathe as if it is life? It is because they cannot sense life, they can only see one of it's effects, yet it exists absolutely even though humans have no idea what it is, what causes it, or where it comes from. You look for concrete and think it must have poured itself.

Ego is not a miserable little creature, it is quite important and the reason for the earth and human existence. You were intended to be the most selfish beings ever created but, and this is a very big but, you weren't intended to always be that way.

I'm a theist and I hold no magic marble. I'm stuck here just as you are. We're in the same boat, you're shoveling water into it, and I'm not one bit happy about it.

 

[Super Universe]

It would be egotistical for you to suggest that the "evidence" you find so convincing should be sufficient for everyone else.

Why do you think it is that your "god of love" would spare some from eternal torment by providing the evidence that convinces them to believe but won't do the same for others?

I don't believe my evidence is sufficient for everyone else. I didn't expect any of you to reply. If you want to know the truth, this topic was intended to touch one specific person, not everyone. That is like trying to change a dog into a human. I can't help the rest of you, be who you are.

God spares no one. God gives evidence to no one. We all get equal treatment. The idea that God sends one to hell and another to heaven is not true. God sends no one anywhere, you earn your next destination.