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Do you not ask yourself "what if I am wrong?"

Zoe Doidge

Basically a Goddess
I have been bouncing around the different threads and I see so much false assurance,but what if your wrong?
In all due respect can an atheist have peace? Is there no higher power then science? Do you really sleep well at night content with no God? What happens after death? Where are your loved ones? Is earthly life all you strive for and death is the end of you? Are you so sure, really?
What if...just What if your wrong? What are the consequences of your denial?

This is pretty much the old Pascal's Wager argument:

If God exists and I believe in him = Heaven.
If God exists and I don’t believe in him = Hell.
If God doesn’t exist and I believe in him = Wasted some time, but then I end up not existing anyway.
If God doesn’t exist and I don’t believe in him = I was right, but then I end up not existing anyway.

Obviously that isn’t the formal version, but that’s the basic idea. And sure, the consequences for not believing and being wrong compared to believing and being wrong would seem to make belief the obvious choice.

The problem is it’s not really an argument for believing in God but an argument for pretending you believe in God so as to maximize your odds of getting into heaven. If God does exist (and he’s competent) he’d see right through that, making the whole thing pointless. It doesn’t give you a reason to believe, just a reason why you might be better off if you did believe.

I don’t know about other people, but I’m just not capable of believing in something purely because I’d personally be better off if it actually turns out to be true.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
The ability of knee-jerk heathens to intuit the necessary psychology of the preternatural is wondrous indeed, particularly since they delight in portraying their views as evidence-based. :biglaugh:

I think it's fair to use the purported attributes of this hypothetical being in arguments against it's existence. It's not us heathens who decided this entity is omniscient, omnibenevolent, and the creator of everything (and oh by the way if you don't believe in it you will be punished in flames forever). This situation is a logical impossibility.

Granted this particular argument only works against this particular hypothetical deity. It would be inapplicable to the Greek or Roman deities. But it's pretty safe to say the OP is referring to the benevolent torturer, given the nature of her questions, which boil down to "How can you live without God's amazing wonderful awesomeness and aren't you worried he will torture you forever".
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
I have been bouncing around the different threads and I see so much false assurance,but what if your wrong?

What is "false assurance"? Maybe you're seeing what I would call "willful ignorance". Is that a fair comparison?

And if I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. That's fine. Now what if YOU'RE wrong? What would that mean to you?

In all due respect can an atheist have peace?

Sure. Atheists are in my family. We all don't seem tortured by the lack of beliefs in any deity.

Is there no higher power then science?

Explain further. What do you mean by "power" with science? Science is a tool for understanding the phenomena we experience and live in.

Do you really sleep well at night content with no God?

Sure. Atheists are in my family. We all don't seem tortured by the lack of beliefs in any deity. (I think I said this before)

What happens after death?

I suggest reading the Tibetan Book of the Dead to get a take on what I see happening, though it's a VERY difficult reading assignment and takes a while to study.

Where are your loved ones?

I'm surrounded by them in presence and in memory. It's joyful and comforting.

Is earthly life all you strive for and death is the end of you? Are you so sure, really?

We're dying all the time. Death is another part of life where the old "me" is shed and the new "me" emerges. Physical death is merely where the old bodily me stops brain and cardiovascular activity and begins to decay to reveal a new "me" that is absored with other minerals in the earth and the air.

What if...just What if your wrong? What are the consequences of your denial?
:thud:

I don't know. But if a deity will be ticked off because I didn't believe he or she existed, that deity is in need of a Big Cosmic Squishy Hug. :rainbow1:
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
This is pretty much the old Pascal's Wager argument:

If God exists and I believe in him = Heaven.
If God exists and I don’t believe in him = Hell.
If God doesn’t exist and I believe in him = Wasted some time, but then I end up not existing anyway.
If God doesn’t exist and I don’t believe in him = I was right, but then I end up not existing anyway.

Obviously that isn’t the formal version, but that’s the basic idea. And sure, the consequences for not believing and being wrong compared to believing and being wrong would seem to make belief the obvious choice.

The problem is it’s not really an argument for believing in God but an argument for pretending you believe in God so as to maximize your odds of getting into heaven. If God does exist (and he’s competent) he’d see right through that, making the whole thing pointless. It doesn’t give you a reason to believe, just a reason why you might be better off if you did believe.

I don’t know about other people, but I’m just not capable of believing in something purely because I’d personally be better off if it actually turns out to be true.

Also, Pascal's wager fallaciously presumes that if there is a god it's automatically the Christian variant. It doesn't take into account the multitude of other religions and their gods, some of which don't believe in eternal damnation. What about those possibilities?
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
God is a master at encoding things behind veils.

Mush like the feces smeared on the wall?

Seriously, though. What purpose would it serve to obscure important messages beneath a vague, cryptic mess knowing that it would result in confusion and misinterpretation that inevitably leads to irrational and unjust actions? Why would god act in such an impractical, convoluted, inefficient Rube Goldberg-esque manner? Just to create the illusion of being mysterious? I would expect an infinitely intelligent being to be somewhat concise and sensible. When something that is presented as a god is indistinguishable from a petty, infantile, barbarous oaf, I'm going to doubt the genuinity of its divinity.
 
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Zoe Doidge

Basically a Goddess
Also, Pascal's wager fallaciously presumes that if there is a god it's automatically the Christian variant. It doesn't take into account the multitude of other religions and their gods, some of which don't believe in eternal damnation. What about those possibilities?

Well yes. And even if it was the Christian God, which specific group of Christians? There's so many potential choices that just going on the odds of it you're highly likely to be wrong even if there is a God.
 

Lady B

noob
In all due respect can an atheist have peace?

Um, how can an atheist not have peace? Maybe I am not understanding the question, but what makes peace and atheism incompatible?

Is there no higher power then science?

Of course there are! There are the laws of physics that apply to our universe, the laws of the quantum world, of string theory, etc that we have not even touched on yet, not to mention the laws of thought which are inescapable.

Do you really sleep well at night content with no God?

Hmmm, I don't sleep well at night due to chronic pain, a terrible mattress, stress, video games, movies, and intense work for class before bed, depression issues... Nothing related to God though. Again, I am not sure I understand the question. How does a good night's rest relate to God? If anything, I sleep poorly because of the way God made my brain work.

What happens after death?

Well you are either cremated or buried, though there are many ways to mix it up. Your body rots in the ground, feeds worms and such, returns to the soil and to the life cycle as a whole. It is actually quite poetic. We return to where we came from.

Where are your loved ones?

Uh, well I think my grandparents are at home. Same with my mother and aunt. Friends too probably considering all of us have classes in the morning. As for dead loved ones, my dad's corpse (or what is left of it) is about two miles away plus 12 feet under ground. It would be safer to say he exists in pictures, memories, stories, and the blood of his relatives. Again, also relatively poetic.

Is earthly life all you strive for and death is the end of you?

What do you mean by "earthly life"? Right now I am striving for a Bachelors in biological anthropology, as well as completing a more successful play through of Mass Effect 3 on Xbox 360, trying to write a novel, looking for a damn job... Again, not sure how it relates to God. Of course death is the end of "me", how could "I" exist without awareness and my mental processes? "I" am the miraculous result of trillions of cells and millions of years of evolution working together against unfathomable odds to create the exact person I am today. Much more beautiful than walking on water and turning water to wine. And when I die I will "live on" in memories, pictures, stories, and blood.

Are you so sure, really?

Actually yes, I am quite sure. I do believe there is something fundamental beyond our full understanding, but nothing supports the existence of anything I would call God. There is no reason to believe that not everything has a natural cause, that whatever is fundamental is not just as mechanical and deterministic as the aspects of reality we are familiar with. There is no need for a conscious creator and nothing supporting that one exists. There is not one single case that suggests interaction from a divine being, nothing that needs to be explained by the supernatural, and even if there is something we do not fully understand, it is only logical to believe that there is an explanation besides God, we just do not know it. There is absolutely nothing suggesting a deity exists.

What if...just What if your wrong? What are the consequences of your denial?

Logically nothing. There is no evidence that any deity exists, and apparently God is beyond logic and understanding. So, there is no responsibility on me to accept God's existence. If God held it against me that it created me in a way that I could not logically believe in it or understand it, as well as creating me in such a way that is bound to fact, evidence, and logic, then screw it, I wouldn't want anything to do with such a God. If God exists, the ability to reason (which sets humans apart from other animals) is God's greatest gift. Since I see no logical reason to believe in God, I think if one exists it would respect my logical atheism more than a believers blind, fideistic faith.
I think you just blamed God for an ailment he could not have possibly given you had he not existed yes?
 

Lady B

noob
this is silly
i find science and atheism liberating. i have no desire for an after life my loved ones are in my heart and memories life is life this world is beautifull. and what if you wrong maybe baal is god maybe he will be made i didnt worship him but at least i did not worship a false god.

also if i go to hell then god is evil pure evil
why is he evil for sending anyone to hell who doesnt even give him credit for his own creation?
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
I have been bouncing around the different threads and I see so much false assurance,but what if your wrong?
In all due respect can an atheist have peace?

yes, why would you pose such a ridiculous question?

Is there no higher power then science?

i am the higher power for myself.

Do you really sleep well at night content with no God?
sure, why ask such a stupid question, it's obvious you can't so what does that have to do with me?

What happens after death?


i don't know and i don't pretend to know

Where are your loved ones?

in my heart.

Is earthly life all you strive for and death is the end of you?
yes. got a problem with that....? tough.

Are you so sure, really?
why must i be sure of anything other than what i know works for me?

What if...just What if your wrong? What are the consequences of your denial?
:thud:
what if you were right and you woke up in heaven and your loved one didn't make it? would heaven cease to be heaven...it would for me, not so sure about you though...cause it's really all about you, isn't it?


absolutely remarkable
:areyoucra
 

Secret Chief

Degrow!
A believer starts with answers and only accepts questions that will support them.

Science starts with questions then looks for answers.
 

Lady B

noob
thankyou all for your reply's you have given me insight as to how you view life and even death, I am in no way trying to pull you to christianity in my post. I have never had the chance to ask a athiest before how he reasons and reconciles his reasoning. Thankyou for being so respectful also, the peace I speak about in my opening post is the peace anyone can have when they put their lives in God's hands .
you reverse my question: what if i am wrong? my answer is this, If I am wrong , my mind only sees blackness, nothing just nothing ........
 

Iti oj

Global warming is real and we need to act
Premium Member
thankyou all for your reply's you have given me insight as to how you view life and even death, I am in no way trying to pull you to christianity in my post. I have never had the chance to ask a athiest before how he reasons and reconciles his reasoning. Thankyou for being so respectful also, the peace I speak about in my opening post is the peace anyone can have when they put their lives in God's hands .
you reverse my question: what if i am wrong? my answer is this, If I am wrong , my mind only sees blackness, nothing just nothing ........

Unless you worship wrong or the wrong diety. :shrug:
 

Iti oj

Global warming is real and we need to act
Premium Member
why is he evil for sending anyone to hell who doesnt even give him credit for his own creation?

Because that is petty that is also not all loving. Why hide then punish me because i could not find him? How is it not evil?
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
thankyou all for your reply's you have given me insight as to how you view life and even death, I am in no way trying to pull you to christianity in my post. I have never had the chance to ask a athiest before how he reasons and reconciles his reasoning. Thankyou for being so respectful also, the peace I speak about in my opening post is the peace anyone can have when they put their lives in God's hands .
you reverse my question: what if i am wrong? my answer is this, If I am wrong , my mind only sees blackness, nothing just nothing ........

I wonder if you realize that the majority of the responses you've gotten in this thread have been from non-atheists.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
thankyou all for your reply's you have given me insight as to how you view life and even death, I am in no way trying to pull you to christianity in my post. I have never had the chance to ask a athiest before how he reasons and reconciles his reasoning. Thankyou for being so respectful also, the peace I speak about in my opening post is the peace anyone can have when they put their lives in God's hands .
you reverse my question: what if i am wrong? my answer is this, If I am wrong , my mind only sees blackness, nothing just nothing ........

Perhaps you didn't thoroughly read people's replies; what if some religion other than Christianity was correct? What if you end up in Hades for not bowing to Zeus?
 

Secret Chief

Degrow!
thankyou all for your reply's you have given me insight as to how you view life and even death, I am in no way trying to pull you to christianity in my post. I have never had the chance to ask a athiest before how he reasons and reconciles his reasoning. Thankyou for being so respectful also, the peace I speak about in my opening post is the peace anyone can have when they put their lives in God's hands .
you reverse my question: what if i am wrong? my answer is this, If I am wrong , my mind only sees blackness, nothing just nothing ........

Then your path is the right one for you. Peace to you.

Talking, sharing and maybe finding some common ground is good.
 

kylixguru

Well-Known Member
Mush like the feces smeared on the wall?

Seriously, though. What purpose would it serve to obscure important messages beneath a vague, cryptic mess knowing that it would result in confusion and misinterpretation that inevitably leads to irrational and unjust actions? Why would god act in such an impractical, convoluted, inefficient Rube Goldberg-esque manner? Just to create the illusion of being mysterious? I would expect an infinitely intelligent being to be somewhat concise and sensible. When something that is presented as a god is indistinguishable from a petty, infantile, barbarous oaf, I'm going to doubt the genuinity of its divinity.
So it's God's fault, for example, that people used to be burned at the stake for saying the earth revolved around the sun?
My point in saying that is even when just a little bit of common sense and reason could be applied to see what is self-evident, man somehow seems in possession of the capacity to inject all kinds of non-sense into things that are simple and to kill others who don't agree with them.
What if when it all does finally come into focus you find that God didn't intentionally hide anything and that it was always in plain view for anyone to have actually "got it"?
 

Iti oj

Global warming is real and we need to act
Premium Member
So it's God's fault, for example, that people used to be burned at the stake for saying the earth revolved around the sun?
My point in saying that is even when just a little bit of common sense and reason could be applied to see what is self-evident, man somehow seems in possession of the capacity to inject all kinds of non-sense into things that are simple and to kill others who don't agree with them.
What if when it all does finally come into focus you find that God didn't intentionally hide anything and that it was always in plain view for anyone to have actually "got it"?
if thats true. then religion is the one obscuring god. soo all organized religions should be punished
well no they need love too
 

kylixguru

Well-Known Member
What if when it all does finally come into focus you find that God didn't intentionally hide anything and that it was always in plain view for anyone to have actually "got it"?
Simplicity is confusing to those who are already confused.
 
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