Do you own any guns

[Mock Turtle]

You don't know what an ad hom or
circular reasoning is.

Thanks teacher.

 

[Revoltingest]

I can understand this, what with so many others having guns, but would you build a society with this in mind - given the associated problems that are obvious in the USA - or would you want to live in one where even if there still is crime, one can walk about and live without fear? Because that is what I have experienced all my life and in the countries I have visited. All achieved without any necessity for personal weapons. Because the upside is that we and the other nations just don't tend to get the horrors seen in the USA.

And if you wouldn't build a society like this one can at least transition away from one.

Many other nations have their own horrors...worse than ours IMO.
But you cannot propose that we just become like other countries.
It won't happen. And I don't want to be under a government
even more prone to micro-managing lives, eg, Germany.

 

[F1fan]

Should should should. And I, a 4 ft 11in 90
something lb female should certainly
never be allowed a usable means of self defense.

The “Main Street shoot out” scenario sounds good until you’re in it. Even trained police can’t shoot accurately when in shoot outs, but an average citizen with a heart rate hitting 150 will remain calm?

Plus, is it reasonable to assume attackers will announce their attack to give victims enough warning to pull a gun and take aim? That’s not really the play book.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Many other nations have their own horrors...worse than ours IMO.
But you cannot propose that we just become like other countries.
It won't happen. And I don't want to be under a government
even more prone to micro-managing lives, eg, Germany.

I was offering that at least look at what other nations achieve in this respect. I know it isn't a simple issue, as all nations tend to have problems often mostly unique to themselves. I don't know what else to say. The deaths will carry on and many Americans will hold onto their guns and look elsewhere than the reasons why these horrors occur.

 

[Revoltingest]

Like who expects it to be easy or a short process? No doubt it would take decades to achieve any semblance of reducing the overall number of weapons. Just remember a JFK quote - We choose to do this not because it’s easy, but because it’s hard.

Again, why discard improved regulation & social
services in preference for a radical solution that
isn't even constitutionally or socially possible?

 

[Revoltingest]

I was offering that at least look at what other nations achieve in this respect. I know it isn't a simple issue, as all nations tend to have problems often mostly unique to themselves. I don't what else to say. The deaths will carry on and many Americans will hold onto their guns and look elsewhere than the reasons why these horrors occur.

To not deal with differences between nations,
will lead to the illusion that 1 solution fits all.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Again, why discard improved regulation & social
services in preference for a radical solution that
isn't even constitutionally or socially possible?

Because I doubt such would be effective - if such could be done - that is the simple reason.

 

[Revoltingest]

Because I doubt such would be effective - if such could be done - that is the simple reason.

You see better regulation & social services as having no value?

 

[Mock Turtle]

To not deal with differences between nations,
will lead to the illusion that 1 solution fits all.

True, but this situation of widespread gun ownership has been shared by many nations - still exists in many - but where change has occurred in many too.

 

[Revoltingest]

True, but this situation of widespread gun ownership has been shared by many nations - still exists in many - but where change has occurred in many too.

Ukraine had even less regulation than USA.
I'd say this has been useful to them.
This shows how your one-size-fits-all solution
is a bad idea.
Have you given any thought to how gun
confiscation in USA would play out?
Do you think confiscation would be without
violent resistance?

 

[Audie]

The “Main Street shoot out” scenario sounds good until you’re in it. Even trained police can’t shoot accurately when in shoot outs, but an average citizen with a heart rate hitting 150 will remain calm?

Plus, is it reasonable to assume attackers will announce their attack to give victims enough warning to pull a gun and take aim? That’s not really the play book.

Neither of those is plausible. So,what's the point?

One lady was forced into the truck of a car.

When the perp opened the trunk in his
chosen secluded place. She shot him full of holes.
No gun would mean she died, not him.

Someone breaking in gives notice of his intent.

There's no universal solution, but you propose
to forbid one of the best?

 

[Mock Turtle]

You see better regulation & social services as having no value?

I don't know - as to what they could actually do.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Ukraine had even less regulation than USA.
I'd say this has been useful to them.
This shows how your one-size-fits-all solution
is a bad idea.
Have you given any thought to how gun
confiscation in USA would play out?
Do you think confiscation would be without
violent resistance?

Well of course I can imagine how many would react, and is why I can't see such change happening in the near or distant future. I can't see a path to such happening either, but then I am no politician and don't have much interest in such. I do try to keep an honest eye on what occurs all around the world though and hence why I and many others have come to our conclusions.

 

[F1fan]

Neither of those is plausible. So,what's the point?

One lady was forced into the truck of a car.

When the perp opened the trunk in his
chosen secluded place. She shot him full of holes.
No gun would mean she died, not him.

Someone breaking in gives notice of his intent.

There's no universal solution, but you propose
to forbid one of the best?

Irrelevant one off anomaly. She was lucky not to be frisked, just a stupid criminal. Should I counter your "whatablotism" with my "whataboutism" of the numerous times mothers were shot and killed by toddlers finding mom's guns in a purse?

I made no mention about the risks to women in Christian and Muslim majoirty nations. My arguments are that more guns do not keep people safer. Even men get mugged and beaten up, or shot, or stabbed. The possibility of weapons being carried by victims doesn't seem to have any effect from being victimized. The best defense is to be cautious and wary of the environment. Women need to take extra care.

 

[Audie]

Irrelevant one off anomaly. She was lucky not to be frisked, just a stupid criminal. Should I counter your "whatablotism" with my "whataboutism" of the numerous times mothers were shot and killed by toddlers finding mom's guns in a purse?

I made no mention about the risks to women in Christian and Muslim majoirty nations. My arguments are that more guns do not keep people safer. Even men get mugged and beaten up, or shot, or stabbed. The possibility of weapons being carried by victims doesn't seem to have any effect from being victimized. The best defense is to be cautious and wary of the environment. Women need to take extra care.

Dismiss with cliches and irrelevance and then
close with blame the victim.

 

[Revoltingest]

The “Main Street shoot out” scenario sounds good until you’re in it. Even trained police can’t shoot accurately when in shoot outs, but an average citizen with a heart rate hitting 150 will remain calm?

Cops shoot under different circumstances. Because they're
actively pursuing someone, they typically shoot at a greater
distance than a civilian defending oneself.
Also, most instances of self defense with a gun are successful
without even firing a shot (per Gary Kleck's research). And
there are many instances of people shooting their assailant
while harming no others. (These might go un-noticed by
those who don't seek out such news. It's seldom ever made
national in the media.)

Plus, is it reasonable to assume attackers will announce their attack to give victims enough warning to pull a gun and take aim? That’s not really the play book.

You can construct all sorts of hypothetical scenarios such
that guns won't be useful in self defense. But the real world
poses a greater variety of situations. This is demonstrated
in many actual uses of guns in self defense.

Some of many....

Armed Chicago woman turns the tables on man attempting to rob her at gunpoint: Police

An armed woman shot and killed a 19-year-old man who allegedly tried to rob her.

abcnews.go.com

Video: Surveillance camera shows 80-year-old store owner shooting attempted robbery suspect | CNN

Security cameras captured the moment an 80-year-old convenience store owner in Southern California shot a masked man armed with what looked like an assault rifle. According to one of the store's employees, the owner suffered a heart attack as a result of the events, but is expected to make a...

www.cnn.com

Pregnant Florida woman uses AR-15 to fatally shoot armed intruder

Two armed men broke into the house and pistol whipped husband, before wife pulled out their legally possessed weapon and opened fire.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[Soandso]

I own a Remington 700 .308, a Brittish .303, and a 50 cal muzzleloader. I had a very outdoorsy upbringing

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Brittish .303

This was the first firearm I ever shot. It was my grandfather's and is kind of our "family rifle."

 

[Audie]

This was the first firearm I ever shot. It was my grandfather's and is kind of our "family rifle."

I've shot a .22 rifle.

The big one, let's see if i memorized it right-
A Mannlicher Schoenauer model 1903
Carbine in calibre 6.5 x 54 mm.

On a Wyoming ranch

 

[F1fan]

Cops shoot under different circumstances. Because they're
actively pursuing someone, they typically shoot at a greater
distance than a civilian defending oneself.
Also, most instances of self defense with a gun are successful
without even firing a shot (per Gary Kleck's research). And
there are many instances of people shooting their assailant
while harming no others. (These might go un-noticed by
those who don't seek out such news. It's seldom ever made
national in the media.)

You can construct all sorts of hypothetical scenarios such
that guns won't be useful in self defense. But the real world
poses a greater variety of situations. This is demonstrated
in real world uses of guns in self defense.

Some of many....

Armed Chicago woman turns the tables on man attempting to rob her at gunpoint: Police

An armed woman shot and killed a 19-year-old man who allegedly tried to rob her.

abcnews.go.com

Video: Surveillance camera shows 80-year-old store owner shooting attempted robbery suspect | CNN

Security cameras captured the moment an 80-year-old convenience store owner in Southern California shot a masked man armed with what looked like an assault rifle. According to one of the store's employees, the owner suffered a heart attack as a result of the events, but is expected to make a...

www.cnn.com

Pregnant Florida woman uses AR-15 to fatally shoot armed intruder

Two armed men broke into the house and pistol whipped husband, before wife pulled out their legally possessed weapon and opened fire.

www.nbcnews.com

Regardless of the few incidents of people using guns to defend themselves my point is the more guns in a society the more gun deaths. That there are cases of people using guns to defend themselves shows there is a gun violence problem. It’s not a defense, it’s more examples of the gun violence problem.