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Do you read the Bible empirically, that is, apart from personal bias and/or denominational interpretations?
- Thread starter River Sea
- Start date
Pete in Panama
Well-Known Member
Let's understand that everyone has prejudices and biases, it's how the human brain works. The question is whether we're in charge of the prejudices and are willing to review and check them as to whether they're consistent w/ reality. My experience is that some folks have a better hold on reality than others.
I admit that I read the bible through a Buddhist lens. Some parts of it only seem to make sense through a Buddhist lens, like Matthew 5:27-30 makes a whole lot more sense when you know about Buddha's Fire Sermon.
Without denominational interpretations? I can almost do that. First of all you need knowledge that the bible doesn't provide such as knowledge about tents and knowledge about weather, plants, the way people live in their houses and tents and how their laws actually function. What is a wedding like? What is a divorce, and how does it actually work? These are not described, yet they are important. Simply reading the bible without this knowledge causes you to project your own ideas upon it: a bias. You put your idea of a wedding in. You put your idea of laws in. You put in your ideas about relationships in. What you get out reflects you, not the bible itself. It is some combination of your experience and this alien culture's text. Its like cooking your own chili. You're putting in all kinds of ingredients that don't come with the chili. In the end your chili will be very different from someone else's.
To begin with: one must have a reason for reading it, and that brings a bias. You start with a bias; and this is not a book. This is many books sewn into a binding. What idle person chooses a thick collection of books to read with no particular reason for doing so.
River Sea
Well-Known Member
@Brickjectivity @crossfire @Pete in Panama
The Bible was written by people; for example, Moses couldn't have known his death, so who wrote about his death? So what was the reason for how the Bible was written? Would this person who wrote about Moses death be empirically, that is, apart from personal bias and/or denominational interpretations? Because how did this person know?
I tend to psychoanalyze. I feel I'm lacking in my responses. I feel I'm rude. Or that's what my writing feels like when I read my responses. I'll send it anyways. What a mess. I'm actually having difficulties how to respond. I think people should have freedom to read any books, freedom to think and freedom to ask questions and freedom to learn, and it's ok to have different views.
1. @Brickjectivity -
You explained that people need knowledge that the Bible doesn't provide, such as knowledge about tents and knowledge about weather, plants, the way people live in their houses and tents, and how their laws actually function.
2. @crossfire - The Fire Sermon from Buddha shows liberation from taints through clinging no more. When understanding about clinging no more, Matthew 5:27-30 makes a whole lot more sense to you.
3. @Pete in Panama - The question is whether we're in charge of the prejudices and are willing to review and check them as to whether they're consistent with reality.
Because you mention tents, I looked up tents and found Tabernacle.
I agree that we really don't know how these people lived back then, and even when learning how to make a tent (tabernacle), it doesn't really help teach us the survival skills that these people used. So what was the reason for how the Bible was written?
Exodus 26
1“Make the tabernacle with ten curtains of finely twisted linen and blue, purple and scarlet yarn, with cherubim woven into them by a skilled worker. 2All the curtains are to be the same size—twenty-eight cubits long and four cubits wide. a 3Join five of the curtains together, and do the same with the other five. 4Make loops of blue material along the edge of the end curtain in one set, and do the same with the end curtain in the other set. 5Make fifty loops on one curtain and fifty loops on the end curtain of the other set, with the loops opposite each other. 6Then make fifty gold clasps and use them to fasten the curtains together so that the tabernacle is a unit.
7“Make curtains of goat hair for the tent over the tabernacle—eleven altogether. 8All eleven curtains are to be the same size—thirty cubits long and four cubits wide. b 9Join five of the curtains together into one set and the other six into another set. Fold the sixth curtain double at the front of the tent. 10Make fifty loops along the edge of the end curtain in one set and also along the edge of the end curtain in the other set. 11Then make fifty bronze clasps and put them in the loops to fasten the tent together as a unit. 12As for the additional length of the tent curtains, the half curtain that is left over is to hang down at the rear of the tabernacle. 13The tent curtains will be a cubit c longer on both sides; what is left will hang over the sides of the tabernacle so as to cover it. 14Make for the tent a covering of ram skins dyed red, and over that a covering of the other durable leather. d
15“Make upright frames of acacia wood for the tabernacle. 16Each frame is to be ten cubits long and a cubit and a half wide, e 17with two projections set parallel to each other. Make all the frames of the tabernacle in this way. 18Make twenty frames for the south side of the tabernacle 19and make forty silver bases to go under them—two bases for each frame, one under each projection. 20For the other side, the north side of the tabernacle, make twenty frames 21and forty silver bases—two under each frame. 22Make six frames for the far end, that is, the west end of the tabernacle, 23and make two frames for the corners at the far end. 24At these two corners they must be double from the bottom all the way to the top and fitted into a single ring; both shall be like that. 25So there will be eight frames and sixteen silver bases—two under each frame.
26“Also make crossbars of acacia wood: five for the frames on one side of the tabernacle, 27five for those on the other side, and five for the frames on the west, at the far end of the tabernacle. 28The center crossbar is to extend from end to end at the middle of the frames. 29Overlay the frames with gold and make gold rings to hold the crossbars. Also overlay the crossbars with gold.
30“Set up the tabernacle according to the plan shown you on the mountain.
31“Make a curtain of blue, purple and scarlet yarn and finely twisted linen, with cherubim woven into it by a skilled worker. 32Hang it with gold hooks on four posts of acacia wood overlaid with gold and standing on four silver bases. 33Hang the curtain from the clasps and place the ark of the covenant law behind the curtain. The curtain will separate the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place. 34Put the atonement cover on the ark of the covenant law in the Most Holy Place. 35Place the table outside the curtain on the north side of the tabernacle and put the lampstand opposite it on the south side.
36“For the entrance to the tent make a curtain of blue, purple and scarlet yarn and finely twisted linen—the work of an embroiderer. 37Make gold hooks for this curtain and five posts of acacia wood overlaid with gold. And cast five bronze bases for them.
Footnotes:
a 2 That is, about 42 feet long and 6 feet wide or about 13 meters long and 1.8 meters wide
b 8 That is, about 45 feet long and 6 feet wide or about 13.5 meters long and 1.8 meters wide
c 13 That is, about 18 inches or about 45 centimeters
d 14 Possibly the hides of large aquatic mammals (see 25:5)
e 16 That is, about 15 feet long and 2 1/4 feet wide or about 4.5 meters long and 68 centimeters wide
The Bible was written by people; for example, Moses couldn't have known his death, so who wrote about his death? So what was the reason for how the Bible was written? Would this person who wrote about Moses death be empirically, that is, apart from personal bias and/or denominational interpretations? Because how did this person know?
I tend to psychoanalyze. I feel I'm lacking in my responses. I feel I'm rude. Or that's what my writing feels like when I read my responses. I'll send it anyways. What a mess. I'm actually having difficulties how to respond. I think people should have freedom to read any books, freedom to think and freedom to ask questions and freedom to learn, and it's ok to have different views.
1. @Brickjectivity -
You explained that people need knowledge that the Bible doesn't provide, such as knowledge about tents and knowledge about weather, plants, the way people live in their houses and tents, and how their laws actually function.
- Because you mentioned tents, I searched for tents in the Bible and found the Tabernacle. However, without researching, I felt lost when reading. What is the risk of me being biased due to being lost? I'll show you the complex of the building tabernacle further down in this post. I agree that we really don't know how these people lived back then, and even when learning how to make a tent (tabernacle), it doesn't really help teach us the survival skills that these people used. So what was the reason for how the Bible was written?
2. @crossfire - The Fire Sermon from Buddha shows liberation from taints through clinging no more. When understanding about clinging no more, Matthew 5:27-30 makes a whole lot more sense to you.
- What is it like for you to no longer cling? What's the purpose of earth when it's a clinging situation? Matthew 5:27–30 looks tragic with that hell word. I learned that no one is separated, and being here on earth is for our deeper understanding; however, no one is separated due to being here on the earth. So reading the fire sermon of Buddha then shows how that verse in Matthew 5:27–30 actually means liberation from taints through clinging no more. Do bhikkhus ever cling to Buddha? I looked online and learned Bhikkhus begs for assistance. When Bhikkhus were begging, were they clinging?
3. @Pete in Panama - The question is whether we're in charge of the prejudices and are willing to review and check them as to whether they're consistent with reality.
- What are your thoughts about reality? What is taking charge of the prejudices? Does that cause peace? How do you take charge? What does it feel like if someone around you isn't in charge? How do you check to review to find out if the information is reality? How long does reality last, 'til it's a story? Are stories ever used to help us learn?
Because you mention tents, I looked up tents and found Tabernacle.
I agree that we really don't know how these people lived back then, and even when learning how to make a tent (tabernacle), it doesn't really help teach us the survival skills that these people used. So what was the reason for how the Bible was written?
Exodus 26
1“Make the tabernacle with ten curtains of finely twisted linen and blue, purple and scarlet yarn, with cherubim woven into them by a skilled worker. 2All the curtains are to be the same size—twenty-eight cubits long and four cubits wide. a 3Join five of the curtains together, and do the same with the other five. 4Make loops of blue material along the edge of the end curtain in one set, and do the same with the end curtain in the other set. 5Make fifty loops on one curtain and fifty loops on the end curtain of the other set, with the loops opposite each other. 6Then make fifty gold clasps and use them to fasten the curtains together so that the tabernacle is a unit.
7“Make curtains of goat hair for the tent over the tabernacle—eleven altogether. 8All eleven curtains are to be the same size—thirty cubits long and four cubits wide. b 9Join five of the curtains together into one set and the other six into another set. Fold the sixth curtain double at the front of the tent. 10Make fifty loops along the edge of the end curtain in one set and also along the edge of the end curtain in the other set. 11Then make fifty bronze clasps and put them in the loops to fasten the tent together as a unit. 12As for the additional length of the tent curtains, the half curtain that is left over is to hang down at the rear of the tabernacle. 13The tent curtains will be a cubit c longer on both sides; what is left will hang over the sides of the tabernacle so as to cover it. 14Make for the tent a covering of ram skins dyed red, and over that a covering of the other durable leather. d
15“Make upright frames of acacia wood for the tabernacle. 16Each frame is to be ten cubits long and a cubit and a half wide, e 17with two projections set parallel to each other. Make all the frames of the tabernacle in this way. 18Make twenty frames for the south side of the tabernacle 19and make forty silver bases to go under them—two bases for each frame, one under each projection. 20For the other side, the north side of the tabernacle, make twenty frames 21and forty silver bases—two under each frame. 22Make six frames for the far end, that is, the west end of the tabernacle, 23and make two frames for the corners at the far end. 24At these two corners they must be double from the bottom all the way to the top and fitted into a single ring; both shall be like that. 25So there will be eight frames and sixteen silver bases—two under each frame.
26“Also make crossbars of acacia wood: five for the frames on one side of the tabernacle, 27five for those on the other side, and five for the frames on the west, at the far end of the tabernacle. 28The center crossbar is to extend from end to end at the middle of the frames. 29Overlay the frames with gold and make gold rings to hold the crossbars. Also overlay the crossbars with gold.
30“Set up the tabernacle according to the plan shown you on the mountain.
31“Make a curtain of blue, purple and scarlet yarn and finely twisted linen, with cherubim woven into it by a skilled worker. 32Hang it with gold hooks on four posts of acacia wood overlaid with gold and standing on four silver bases. 33Hang the curtain from the clasps and place the ark of the covenant law behind the curtain. The curtain will separate the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place. 34Put the atonement cover on the ark of the covenant law in the Most Holy Place. 35Place the table outside the curtain on the north side of the tabernacle and put the lampstand opposite it on the south side.
36“For the entrance to the tent make a curtain of blue, purple and scarlet yarn and finely twisted linen—the work of an embroiderer. 37Make gold hooks for this curtain and five posts of acacia wood overlaid with gold. And cast five bronze bases for them.
Footnotes:
a 2 That is, about 42 feet long and 6 feet wide or about 13 meters long and 1.8 meters wide
b 8 That is, about 45 feet long and 6 feet wide or about 13.5 meters long and 1.8 meters wide
c 13 That is, about 18 inches or about 45 centimeters
d 14 Possibly the hides of large aquatic mammals (see 25:5)
e 16 That is, about 15 feet long and 2 1/4 feet wide or about 4.5 meters long and 68 centimeters wide
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Knowledge of how laws function is more important.
Bias is what causes us to read. What are we trying to get out of the scriptures, and when can we rest from our search? If our goal is to find something and rest from searching, then we have a bias. If our goal is to understand everything about the scriptures without ever stopping then that limits our bias, unless we get lazy.
siti
Well-Known Member
Not sure but if you are you'll be right at home on RF!
Audie
Veteran Member
I dont read it.
But when I did i had very little knowledge or
exposure of any kind to Christianity.
Kind of like if a westerner came here and didn't know
what the dragons are about.
So I guess I was pretty objective when I read it.
When people are curious they are looking for something that interests them, so what they find reflects that.
Pete in Panama
Well-Known Member
The problem here is a question of whether you want to understand the approach of most people or you're playing word games for your entertainment. Your question of whether understanding one's prejudices can cause peace does not compute. Your mention of reality becoming a "story" is in essence unintelligible.
Our problem in communicating may stem from how we may differ in our understanding of what is and what is not --"reality" in words of one syllable. My assumption is that some things are, I can observe or infer them, and others can do the same. If your view is that you can make anything real that you want then there's no way we can communicate. If you believe that some things that are they are outside of us and observable to all separately, then we can share an understanding.
Your call.
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
Almost certainly not, since anything I read will inevitably be interpreted through the prism of my culture and environment, as well as my personal experience.
I would challenge in any case, the suggestion that there is necessarily a right and wrong way to interpret the written word, or that any one person has the right to tell another, how they should listen.
Audie
Veteran Member
You will have little success in engineering,
law, or science ma,ing that argument.
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
I wasn't aware that The Bible, which is the subject of this thread, was considered an engineering manual. As for the law, if there was any consensus on interpretation, there'd be a lot of unemployed lawyers
Audie
Veteran Member
Whatevs.
Audie
Veteran Member
It is a terrific help if a person actually tries.
Self awareness, say. Do you have some specific agenda?
Hoping to find something. Preferring one finding over
another. Needing more evidence for one than another.
Confirmation bias. That sort of thing.
I don't think curiosity is in itself some sort of bias,
still less a bias as in automatically skewing perception.
As for myself I'd had no specific training in how to think
as researcher when I first read the bible. ( cover to cover)
Though I'd grown up with it.
I read the book about this alien religion when I was 13.
At the end of it, my overall impression-
I found it boring, disappointing, and unbelievable.
If it's " bias" to give somethung a chance, then I'd say we
are all so freaking biased with literally every step we take
it's a wonder we survive.
More sensibly, I'd say that for all reasonable intents
and purposes, it is entirely feasible for some of us
to read the bible, bahai writings, BoM, Buddhist etc
without crippling preconception.
Post conception is quite different. At least couple of those mentioned are plainly fantasy and gibberish with a LITTLE
solid and verifiable tossed in. The way a con man does.
As of course any True Believer will almost agree.
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Still not possible though even if you try
What do you think Biblical Scholarship is?
But trying to read a religious book as though it were a chemistry textbook is absurd.
Audie
Veteran Member
How much of what sort of bias is kinda important.
I keep seeing " bias" spoken of as if it's one thing.
True Believers think bible is a sacred book, every word
utterly profound, infallible, eternal.
That's how you get yecs, who have journeyed beyond all
reach of facts, logic, or reason. Zero chance of reconsideration of any sort for any reason. Objectivity? Ha.
That's the grim spectre of Bias.
Now, one might read a flight schedule, a student
might read his grade report, hoping for better news.
That bias of hope- for isn't a problem, there.
Because the sane among us don't go into denial.
I DID pass! I DIDNT miss my flight! : D
Reading the Bible sans bias? Read in the most scholarly way only emphasizes the deep bias hat the Truth is in there
somewhere, that this work is somehow worth devoting
ones life to it.
The level of sanity in that is open to question. Imo.
I approach every info source with what is intended as
healthy skepticism. Ive found errors in texts, heard it
from profs at Uni. Found them in manuals.
If skpticism is " bias", in some negative way that suggests it interferes with accurate perception, then, imo,
both skepticism and bias have lost all meaning as words.
To me any book, whether novel, text, history, or
" sacred" can be read in the same way in that
it should be read with an open mind alert to find
find what is in there, whatever it may be.
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